darkoz
darkoz
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September 9th, 2018 at 6:43:48 PM permalink
The legal problem in proving the crime of collusion here is that the actual crime is not in the casino but outside after the fact

Ex. A) Dealer gets max bet tips within the rules. Resultant wins dealer takes home and KEEPS FOR HIMSELF

Gives money to landlord and electric bills

No crime

Ex. B) Dealer gets max bet tips within the rules. Resultant wins dealer takes home and give some or half or all to his friend who tipped him

Suddenly illegal?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FinsRule
FinsRule
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RS
September 9th, 2018 at 7:08:55 PM permalink
There’s no crime. For there to be a crime, a law has to be broken.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 9th, 2018 at 7:15:27 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Ex. B) Dealer gets max bet tips within the rules. Resultant wins dealer takes home and give some or half or all to his friend who tipped him

Suddenly illegal?

I would say, absolutely yes, that is illegal.


I know it's not the same, and I don't know what the final outcome was or exactly what happened, but I seem to remember there being an issue with poker players tipping cocktail waitresses large amounts so they get money off the table and then they cocktail waitresses would give it back to them at home. I just remember thinking... that has to be illegal somehow.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 9th, 2018 at 7:20:23 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

There’s no crime. For there to be a crime, a law has to be broken.

I wouldn't feel confident that colluding with a dealer(even if it's within the law) would get a pass from a jury.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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September 9th, 2018 at 8:59:07 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I wouldn't feel confident that colluding with a dealer(even if it's within the law) would get a pass from a jury.



Juries dont get to decide the law. They decide if the evidence proves the crime accused by the DA was committed

The DA does not get to decide The law. He has to determine what specific crime was committed. It has to be a written law not a "gee it just sounds wrong" law

Is there a law that players who know a dealer as a friend cant play at their table?

Is there a law they cant tip them? (I would expect friends to be even bigger tippers)

Is there a law that legit wagers cant be made if certain factors are in play(doubt there Is that law)

And is there a law that dealers cant do what they want with their income including giving it to their friends

Absent any laws to the above there is no crime

Absent any crime the DA has to come up with a charge before moving forward

And then prove that charge actually occurred

I dont think this is illegal UNDER THE LAW. Which is all that really counts
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Zcore13
Zcore13
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September 9th, 2018 at 9:43:11 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

All, remember that Zcore13 has said in this forum that he is in a supervisory/management position in a casino and, also on this forum, has always expressed a viewpoint that is tantamount to an ideological belief that a casino has a sovereign and legal right to all the money that players possess. Arguing with him by using logic is pointless, IMO. You might as well throw a rock at the moon and try to knock it from the sky.



I've never said casinos have a right to money players possess. That's ridiculous. And so is saying using logic is pointless.

I was (and still am) a player long before I was in the business. I was also a dealer before I was a Supervisor.

Nothing I've said is than unlikely. The player has a good chance of getting arrested. The dealer has a good chance of getting arrested at worst, fired at least. I said the charges probably wouldn't stick., but the publicity and cost would not be good. Not a good idea to risk it.

My opinion is based on many years in the business. Real life experience of how things happen. What's your experience in the business?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
RS
RS
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September 9th, 2018 at 10:34:43 PM permalink
Is the player allowed to make a $X bet on his own bet?

Is the player allowed to make a $Y tip-bet for the dealer?

Is the casino policy to allow the dealer's bet to "ride" without the player putting up a "play" wager for it? Is this policy legal?

Are the dealer and player acting lawfully even if they following the rules of the game and are not breaking any laws? This one should be pretty obvious, but, ya know....

The answer to all 4 (5*) of those questions is a resounding, "YES!"



So please, if you disagree and think this is illegal -- please, write specifically and exactly what makes this illegal. Saying you might end up in jail is terrible logic (if you have to ask why, you're already wrong). Saying the dealer might get fired is also terrible logic.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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September 10th, 2018 at 12:32:13 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Is the player allowed to make a $X bet on his own bet?

Is the player allowed to make a $Y tip-bet for the dealer?

Is the casino policy to allow the dealer's bet to "ride" without the player putting up a "play" wager for it? Is this policy legal?

Are the dealer and player acting lawfully even if they following the rules of the game and are not breaking any laws? This one should be pretty obvious, but, ya know....

The answer to all 4 (5*) of those questions is a resounding, "YES!"



So please, if you disagree and think this is illegal -- please, write specifically and exactly what makes this illegal. Saying you might end up in jail is terrible logic (if you have to ask why, you're already wrong). Saying the dealer might get fired is also terrible logic.



It really doesnt matter what you think is logical. Here's what would happen if the situation was observed where I was the Table Games Director. I am generally more reasonable than most and definitely side for the player in all situations that I can. I have never banned a player permanently before and have fought for players to not be banned.

Dealer would be suspended pending investigation.

HR or Casino Attorney would review the situation and determine the outcome.

If no action taken, dealer would receive pay or paid time off for the days missed.

If recommended by investigator, dealer would be fired for colluding with a player to manipulate the spirit of the rules.

If asked, I would have no opinion either way on termination, but would recommend suspension if investigator believes there should be some action taken, but not termination. The only way this would happen at a place I was, would be if I recently took over. It would not be allowed under the rules otherwise.

Player would be asked to not return until investigation complete by Casino Attorney.

I would not call police at any point and would not ban up front.

I would have no opinion either way on charges. That's the Attorneys job.

If asked, I would recommend banning for colluding with a dealer to manipulate rules. Anyone that would do this would take other shots in my opinion and I'd rather not have them as a customer.

I've known about this possibility for years. I personally would never even think about doing this if/when I was not in the business. I dont even let dealers mis-pay me or cashiers over pay me. To me this is not normal AP. I have no problem with normal AP situations. Card counting, hole carding, etc, are issues the casino should be responsible for not allowing to take place if they dont want it to happen. The player is not at fault for trying. Colluding with Staff is different to me.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
FinsRule
FinsRule
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Zcore13
September 10th, 2018 at 4:58:34 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Is the player allowed to make a $X bet on his own bet?

Is the player allowed to make a $Y tip-bet for the dealer?

Is the casino policy to allow the dealer's bet to "ride" without the player putting up a "play" wager for it? Is this policy legal?

Are the dealer and player acting lawfully even if they following the rules of the game and are not breaking any laws? This one should be pretty obvious, but, ya know....

The answer to all 4 (5*) of those questions is a resounding, "YES!"



So please, if you disagree and think this is illegal -- please, write specifically and exactly what makes this illegal. Saying you might end up in jail is terrible logic (if you have to ask why, you're already wrong). Saying the dealer might get fired is also terrible logic.



In a union it's a little harder, but assuming the dealer is non-union, I have no idea why you say it's "terrible logic" that a dealer might be fired for colluding with a player.

You can't just say "terrible logic" if you don't have a reason and expect people to take a post seriously. It's extremely logical that a casino wouldn't want their dealer colluding with players!
darkoz
darkoz
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September 10th, 2018 at 6:01:39 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

In a union it's a little harder, but assuming the dealer is non-union, I have no idea why you say it's "terrible logic" that a dealer might be fired for colluding with a player.

You can't just say "terrible logic" if you don't have a reason and expect people to take a post seriously. It's extremely logical that a casino wouldn't want their dealer colluding with players!



He wasnt saying jts terrible logic the casino doesnt condone collusion but that it automatically is illegal and would wind up with a jail stay

There are many AP moves the casinos dont condone AND which I personally have been told by casino staff amount to cheating, theft, collusion, a scam, etc IN THEIR EYES but which UNDER THE LAW ARE NOT

Ie what the casinos feel is meaningless when it comes to who is going to get locked up

Vis a vis terrible logic

EDIT: I do see he also says the dealer might get fired. U until its deemed against the rules to accept tip wagers from friends then I agree it is terrible logic but I am sure casinos would do it
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

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