Ultimate Texas Hold Em
February 26th, 2016 at 9:24:39 AM
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I have an question about the Play bet on Ultimate Texas Hold Em and how a specific rule affects the house edge. I apologize if this has been discussed/answered somewhere else but, I did search around. It's a somewhat long question so it was difficult to find in a search.
Here goes,
On what I assume to be standard Ultimate Texas Hold Em games where you are allowed to make a Play bet of 3x or 4x your Ante amount, pre-flop, I've seen games where the standard 3x or 4x pre-flop rule applied but, the Dealers and Floor people were allowing patrons to bet anywhere from 1x to 4x, pre-flop.
I am curious how this affects the house edge, if at all, when you disregard that game rule and allow people to bet as low as 1x their Ante, pre-flop?
Thanks!
Here goes,
On what I assume to be standard Ultimate Texas Hold Em games where you are allowed to make a Play bet of 3x or 4x your Ante amount, pre-flop, I've seen games where the standard 3x or 4x pre-flop rule applied but, the Dealers and Floor people were allowing patrons to bet anywhere from 1x to 4x, pre-flop.
I am curious how this affects the house edge, if at all, when you disregard that game rule and allow people to bet as low as 1x their Ante, pre-flop?
Thanks!
February 26th, 2016 at 9:46:08 AM
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Under betting has a considerable cost effect, about 7.1% per ANTE unit.
On a hand that's +EV, the point of the game (and its early raise ability when in a strong position) is to obtain its max value and return.
On the flop with UTH, the ANTE HE is 2.5% with proper 4x raises. This is about 0.6% EoR of all bets in action on the game.
at 3x max raise, it becomes 9.66%
at 2x max raise, it becomes 16.8%
and raising 1x early when +EV makes the HE 24% for that round.
Most people give some HE back by not raising aggressively, though most players will raise the unmistakable raise hands such as JJ or AK suited.
It's the hands like J10, Q9, K6, and a pair of 3's where many players stumble.
When I dealt the game, I would tell players they can check and see the flop instead of bet early, if they aren't going to raise strongly pre-flop.
On a hand that's +EV, the point of the game (and its early raise ability when in a strong position) is to obtain its max value and return.
On the flop with UTH, the ANTE HE is 2.5% with proper 4x raises. This is about 0.6% EoR of all bets in action on the game.
at 3x max raise, it becomes 9.66%
at 2x max raise, it becomes 16.8%
and raising 1x early when +EV makes the HE 24% for that round.
Most people give some HE back by not raising aggressively, though most players will raise the unmistakable raise hands such as JJ or AK suited.
It's the hands like J10, Q9, K6, and a pair of 3's where many players stumble.
When I dealt the game, I would tell players they can check and see the flop instead of bet early, if they aren't going to raise strongly pre-flop.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 26th, 2016 at 9:55:09 AM
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What players fail to understand is that be able to bet 4x is a benefit to them, as opposed to being able to only bet 1x.
February 26th, 2016 at 10:04:04 AM
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Quote: HittemWhat players fail to understand is that be able to bet 4x is a benefit to them, as opposed to being able to only bet 1x.
Scared money.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 26th, 2016 at 10:17:47 AM
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Truth. I've seen people NOT 4x QQ... like, what more do you want? What better starting position do you want against 2 random cards?Quote: IbeatyouracesScared money.
I've also seen other people NOT look at their cards until the flop because they think it saves them money from betting good hands and losing. I can only imagine the HE these people are playing with. Rough estimates with Dan's ~7% per ante means on good hands it would be costing them like 28%? Overall probably like an addition 10-20% HE? ...so bad.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
February 26th, 2016 at 10:29:55 AM
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Thank you for the information. That is the info I was looking for. Appreciate it, Paigowdan.
February 26th, 2016 at 10:31:04 AM
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Now he's going to run back to his casino and say "guys, let's let them bet 1x to 4x!" =PQuote: lobeoThank you for the information. That is the info I was looking for. Appreciate it, Paigowdan.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
February 26th, 2016 at 10:35:08 AM
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Quote: RomesNow he's going to run back to his casino and say "guys, let's let them bet 1x to 4x!" =P
I've been saying that the rules should let them if they want. Being allowed to check makes no difference. You'll either bet 4x or wait then bet 1x.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 26th, 2016 at 10:59:54 AM
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Quote: RomesNow he's going to run back to his casino and say "guys, let's let them bet 1x to 4x!" =P
Quite the contrary: I want players to play well, not badly, to the best of their ability with proper strategy. I even said that when I dealt, I would remind players who were betting 1x on the hole cards to either bet 4x with a good hand, or check to see the flop where they can bet 2x, not 1x. This is not to be confused with allowing the taking of shots against the house.
I recommend that in game design, a good and true strategy be given the players on every rack card.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 26th, 2016 at 12:04:03 PM
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I was referring to the OP, but glad to know you think always thinking of you Dan.Quote: PaigowdanQuite the contrary: I want players to play well, not badly, to the best of their ability with proper strategy....
(I am... <3)
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
February 26th, 2016 at 12:38:56 PM
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Haha, just trying to settle a debate about the game and figured this would be the best place to ask.
February 26th, 2016 at 12:50:05 PM
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Romes, I wasn't chancing the direction or the implication, because as a "casino-sider," it is wrongly assumed that we or I want players to play poorly.
Things work well for all parties when games work well, and a lot of it depends on player and dealer education.
Things work well for all parties when games work well, and a lot of it depends on player and dealer education.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 27th, 2016 at 6:46:58 PM
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Quote: lobeoHaha, just trying to settle a debate about the game and figured this would be the best place to ask.
That game holds far more than it should for exactly that reason; people are scared to bet it properly. The only way to make money on it is to max bet your good hands, as soon as they're good hands (whether pre- or post-flop). I see SO many people check their aces, faces, and small pairs, it's criminal.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
February 27th, 2016 at 6:55:53 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabs...I see SO many people check their aces, faces, and small pairs, it's criminal.
The average player only cares about the trips bet and the progressive if it's installed.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 28th, 2016 at 12:55:33 AM
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The standard rule...where you can either check, bet 3x, or bet 4x preflop, I've never been a big fan. It likely confuses the casual player, and possibly makes them play more suboptimally then if the preflop rule was either check or 4X. Why throw in a redundant betting choice? I want to say Roger in the past said he feared that players wouldn't want to bet 4X preflop (totally correct), but the players that feel that way wouldn't want to bet 3X either.
February 28th, 2016 at 9:15:05 AM
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Totally agree.
I understand Roger's wish to leave an appearing gentler out for the player, but the lesser 3x option is player and game play negative. The juice of the game is in winning 4x when it is bet. Roger is a superb game designer and a talented executive, and UTH is a smash hit. I assume it was a compromise on the design table, to add an option and to handle a new situation on such a high raise back then.
I view it for UTH like a dimple on an otherwise perfect Marilyn Monroe in this case. Other and newer games today should just avoid it. On UTH, as an earlier game, it's a minor imperfection that makes it perfect. Not so today.
I've had arguments with game designers, one an executive (not Roger) who just wanted to mimic or "be like Roger/UTH," where I said that you should NEVER install an option in a game to improperly under-bet or otherwise bamboozle the player into a mis-play. Roger did it only with the intent as an additional gentler option for UTH, and at that time over a decade ago. What worked for a Master ten years ago doesn't work for a game hack today.
Today:
1. It makes the game rougher for the player, the player will lose more misplaying the game.
2. it makes the product appear "gamed against the player" when a newer game is discussed or analyzed. Today it is not known as a gentle out option.
3. It makes the designer look incompetent (though not at all in the earlier UTH case as a new game back in 2006), and,
4. it makes the distributor look untrustworthy.
I understand Roger's wish to leave an appearing gentler out for the player, but the lesser 3x option is player and game play negative. The juice of the game is in winning 4x when it is bet. Roger is a superb game designer and a talented executive, and UTH is a smash hit. I assume it was a compromise on the design table, to add an option and to handle a new situation on such a high raise back then.
I view it for UTH like a dimple on an otherwise perfect Marilyn Monroe in this case. Other and newer games today should just avoid it. On UTH, as an earlier game, it's a minor imperfection that makes it perfect. Not so today.
I've had arguments with game designers, one an executive (not Roger) who just wanted to mimic or "be like Roger/UTH," where I said that you should NEVER install an option in a game to improperly under-bet or otherwise bamboozle the player into a mis-play. Roger did it only with the intent as an additional gentler option for UTH, and at that time over a decade ago. What worked for a Master ten years ago doesn't work for a game hack today.
Today:
1. It makes the game rougher for the player, the player will lose more misplaying the game.
2. it makes the product appear "gamed against the player" when a newer game is discussed or analyzed. Today it is not known as a gentle out option.
3. It makes the designer look incompetent (though not at all in the earlier UTH case as a new game back in 2006), and,
4. it makes the distributor look untrustworthy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 28th, 2016 at 9:26:00 AM
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You can't *make money* on a negative EV game. Any strategy (aside from folding every hand) can "make money" in the sense you describe. Perhaps "make money" means "lose money at a slower rate."Quote: beachbumbabsThe only way to make money on it is to max bet your good hands, as soon as they're good hands (whether pre- or post-flop).
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
February 28th, 2016 at 9:35:31 AM
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Yes. I think she meant it on a relative or comparative scale: you'll make more money ("lose less") on a still-negative EV game.
And if you have a session of positive variance, then you will actually make more money in those cases.
All games are negative EV, but players can still walk away up by some gravity-defying paradox. [ ;) ] That's the hope, anyway.
And if you have a session of positive variance, then you will actually make more money in those cases.
All games are negative EV, but players can still walk away up by some gravity-defying paradox. [ ;) ] That's the hope, anyway.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 28th, 2016 at 9:38:04 AM
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I found a venue that will allow a 4x bet on the flop.
Surely there is some sort of edge there?
Surely there is some sort of edge there?
Guess who peed in my Cheerios? Romes did...
February 28th, 2016 at 9:39:55 AM
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I wouldn't have posted the above.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 28th, 2016 at 9:48:19 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanI want players to play well, not badly, to the best of their ability with proper strategy.
Oh, the bait, the bait, the juicy, meaty, beautiful alluring bait.
...shining like the door of a whorehouse. A blind man could spot it ten miles off....
Must ...... resist ..... don't take ..... shutdown computer ..... abort, ab
February 28th, 2016 at 9:50:35 AM
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Just to preserve it -- I'll run that.Quote: HeyMrDJI found a venue that will allow a 4x bet on the flop.
Surely there is some sort of edge there?
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
February 28th, 2016 at 9:56:43 AM
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Quote: CanyoneroOh, the bait, the bait, the juicy, meaty, beautiful alluring bait.
...shining like the door of a whorehouse. A blind man could spot it ten miles off....
Must ...... resist ..... don't take ..... shutdown computer ..... abort, ab
Bait?
A game only works well when played well by all parties playing it.
It's a pretty fundamental assumption in game design.
You find something sinister in that?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
March 3rd, 2016 at 9:58:22 AM
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Raise 4x on TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, otherwise check. Player edge = 17.8252%.Quote: HeyMrDJI found a venue that will allow a 4x bet on the flop. Surely there is some sort of edge there?
This is actually a "new game." Just make the Ante wager more stingy and you've got something here.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
March 3rd, 2016 at 10:54:55 AM
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Quote: teliotRaise 4x on TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, otherwise check. Player edge = 17.8252%.
This is actually a "new game." Just make the Ante wager more stingy and you've got something here.
Remove the variable pay schedule on the blind and you'd have an interesting blend of the current UTH and THB games.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
March 3rd, 2016 at 11:05:42 AM
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Quote: teliotRaise 4x on TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, otherwise check. Player edge = 17.8252%.
This is actually a "new game." Just make the Ante wager more stingy and you've got something here.
This makes no sense. The way I read the post was that this place allowed the player to bet 4x on the flop instead of just 2x.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 3rd, 2016 at 11:21:50 AM
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Quote: teliotRaise 4x on TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, otherwise check. Player edge = 17.8252%.
This is actually a "new game." Just make the Ante wager more stingy and you've got something here.
I also read it that way, and not only that... so you're telling me not to 4x AK pre-flop? Unless you know more information, missing the flop might discourage a player from betting AK where as that might be the best play... with AK vs XX (2 lower cards) you're about 60/40 and you don't need to hit... you need the dealer not to hit their 6 outs in the 5 community cards. After the flop you could have them drawing to 14% (6 outs twice) even if the flop was 9-8-7 when surely 99% of players would check their AK to that flop. 4X when you know you have the best of it (the vast majority of the time) which would be preflop, and on average (to the average "computer hand" of Q-7) you're a 33% favorite.Quote: IbeatyouracesThis makes no sense. The way I read the post was that this place allowed the player to bet 4x on the flop instead of just 2x.
Taking a free look will never change anything unless you know one, or both, of the dealers cards. Because when the 3 cards come on the flop, you have no idea if the dealer hit or not... If they did, you're wayyyy behind, if they didn't you're wayyyy ahead, but there's no way of knowing if they hit or not (assuming we're playing a basic game w/ no extra info). So 4x when you know you on average have a 33% edge.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
March 3rd, 2016 at 11:24:17 AM
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Exactly. He could wager 3x or 4x pre-Flop, 4x on the flop and 1x on the turn/river. That's the same.Quote: IbeatyouracesThis makes no sense. The way I read the post was that this place allowed the player to bet 4x on the flop instead of just 2x.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
March 3rd, 2016 at 11:40:10 AM
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Quote: teliotExactly. He could wager 3x or 4x pre-Flop, 4x on the flop and 1x on the turn/river. That's the same.
OK, I see where you're coming from. I'm talking about the flop decision, and what hands should be checked or 4x'd on the flop. Not pre-flop. I'm guessing it wouldn't change, correct?
Edit: Just read your entry and can see that some decisions would probably change. Another thing the OP didn't say was whether you can still bet 2x on the flop also.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 3rd, 2016 at 11:59:56 AM
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Quote: teliotYou can't *make money* on a negative EV game. Any strategy (aside from folding every hand) can "make money" in the sense you describe. Perhaps "make money" means "lose money at a slower rate."
I agree. I was careless in my phrasing. I "make money" by playing as perfect strategy as I can and getting up when I'm ahead. That's mostly losing as little as possible by betting aggresively and taking advantage of variance when it favors me, not playing as +EV (though at times my comps push it slightly +EV).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 3rd, 2016 at 2:18:21 PM
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Sorry BBB, but timing methods do not make money either. Not unless after (if) you win you then quit for life.Quote: beachbumbabsI "make money" by playing as perfect strategy as I can and getting up when I'm ahead.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
March 3rd, 2016 at 2:28:03 PM
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Quote: teliotSorry BBB, but timing methods do not make money either. Not unless after (if) you win you then quit for life.
I get that. My particular situation is that I play occasionally on a boat that goes out twice a day for several hours, so it gets shut off on me. I play until the variance sine wave goes up because I enjoy the game, then I get up and do something else before I hit another trough. Overall, I'm up because I do this, but not by a lot, and I play for entertainment, not because I'm playing it +EV. It's a good game.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 3rd, 2016 at 4:31:22 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabs...I see SO many people check their aces, faces, and small pairs, it's criminal.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe average player only cares about the trips bet and the progressive if it's installed.
I think it's good for me that these things are true. If everyone played correct strategy and avoided the side bets, I doubt the Caesar's LV properties would be able to offer the game for $5. I find it a very fun game at low stakes and enjoy the low element of risk. I've seen it for $5 even at CP. Unfortunately I prefer to stay at MGM properties and have never seen the game below $10.
I see at most 50% of players using anything close to the correct strategy. As babs says, a huge number believe you should only raise preflop with AA, KK, and AKs. Even many dealers have told me to use this "strategy" and almost all dealers express surprise when they turn over my winning hand of J10o after a 4x raise.
March 3rd, 2016 at 5:08:26 PM
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Teliot's battle cry is "no quarter", BBB
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
March 3rd, 2016 at 7:38:20 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitTeliot's battle cry is "no quarter", BBB
Lol...I was going to ask if he could take his foot off my neck now, but perhaps he already has.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
June 3rd, 2016 at 6:15:44 AM
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Hello all. I am new to the forum and was looking for a mathematical analysis on Ultimate Texas Hold em and Three Card Poker. I was recently playing these two games in Vegas and got into a discussion with a Pit Boss over how they rated my play. On Ultimate Texas Hold they only included my bet on the ante and blind (as they are the contract bets). The play bet was not included as it was considered optional and often not played (i.e. when folding). Mathematically is this correct, or was I being short changed for my action? On three card poker it was the same story, with only my ante bet included and not the play bet. They did include my side bet action on trips and pair plus, but I was more concerned over the play bet action. Any feedback you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks
June 3rd, 2016 at 7:33:51 AM
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Hey Steelo, and welcome to the forums!
That is pretty odd they didn't consider the rest of your action. Most places DO consider the play bets because the vast majority of people whom play the games play them WRONG! Just like how everyone is already mentioning above... Most players don't understand they should always bet an ace. NOT betting an ace severely hurts the players odds, which should give them a better rating in the casinos eyes. I know for a fact that several of the casinos I frequent do count your play bets in to your action, so you must have found a stingy casino =/. They really should count your play bets.
That is pretty odd they didn't consider the rest of your action. Most places DO consider the play bets because the vast majority of people whom play the games play them WRONG! Just like how everyone is already mentioning above... Most players don't understand they should always bet an ace. NOT betting an ace severely hurts the players odds, which should give them a better rating in the casinos eyes. I know for a fact that several of the casinos I frequent do count your play bets in to your action, so you must have found a stingy casino =/. They really should count your play bets.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 3rd, 2016 at 9:33:07 AM
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According to the Wizard of Odds UTH page, the average bet by the end of the hand is 4.15 times the ante bet. So, it sounds like you are only being counted for less than half your bets, playing basic strategy.
The 3CP page doesn't list the average bet per hand, but you can take the listed HE value and divide it by the element of risk to get a total bet average of about 1.67 times the ante bet.
I agree with Romes. That stinks that they don't count all of your action. Perhaps the "expected loss" variable of the rating calculation is adjusted to compensate this? I don't think the PB's differentiate main bet vs. side bet when they note your action per hand. It could be that they don't count your "play" action in order to weight the side bets more heavily, since they carry a higher edge. I don't really know.
The 3CP page doesn't list the average bet per hand, but you can take the listed HE value and divide it by the element of risk to get a total bet average of about 1.67 times the ante bet.
I agree with Romes. That stinks that they don't count all of your action. Perhaps the "expected loss" variable of the rating calculation is adjusted to compensate this? I don't think the PB's differentiate main bet vs. side bet when they note your action per hand. It could be that they don't count your "play" action in order to weight the side bets more heavily, since they carry a higher edge. I don't really know.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
June 3rd, 2016 at 11:06:17 AM
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Not sure where you're playing, but where I play, I'm credited with a multiplier to my ante bet on carnival games, then the sidebet value is added on.
I get 2.5 on pgp (for 2 hands that I press when they win), 4 on uth and hcf. Don't know 3CP because I haven't played it for years, but I suspect 2.
If you're only getting 1x on those games, you should shop around.
I get 2.5 on pgp (for 2 hands that I press when they win), 4 on uth and hcf. Don't know 3CP because I haven't played it for years, but I suspect 2.
If you're only getting 1x on those games, you should shop around.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
June 3rd, 2016 at 11:43:40 AM
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This discussion begs the question: for rating/calculating comps, what theoretical loss value do they use for UTH? It seems that if they use BS theo, they're kind of screwing over their best customers (those who play very sub-optimally), who, based on my limited personal observations, appear to be the vast majority.
It's been so long, I forget where that was, but one time I did ask the PB, and they counted all the action the same. I just assumed that was standard. Shame on me for assuming, right? :)Quote: beachbumbabsNot sure where you're playing, but where I play, I'm credited with a multiplier to my ante bet on carnival games, then the sidebet value is added on.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
