tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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September 4th, 2013 at 4:09:40 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

Of course there was no dispute, nor denial. He realized right away you were asking stupid questions and chose not to engage in any discussion about this foolishness. He's a lot smarter than I am



The conversations are not over. I find it interesting that you have pointed to these two "research" papers as some kind of proof of the causal direct link and then down play these "studies" and the work involved by these two physicists as just "papers." You need to re-evaluate your critical thinking skills.

1. A 10% increase in "muscle mass" is NOT isolated in a general weight training programs, and Bonds was no exception. His development was easily visable in general for all to perceive. Therefore, that "10%" would have been diluted to perhaps 1% or less in the viable areas directly related to hitting. For example: The bicep is a flexor and has little to do with creating bat speed. Yet Bonds biceps were highly developed along with his quads, obliques, and other irrelevant (my words) muscles relating to bat speed. So where does the 10% have to be located to effect the change? What I am stating here is that the 10% increased mm would have to be necessarily be in hitting specific areas.

2. It is highly likely that there are many MLB players who can clock bat speed at 80 mph or higher. Why is it that they are not hitting big numbers of HRs or even batting averages equal to BB?

3. With all the controversy, where are the studies or research involving bat speed and weight training w/o using chemicals?

4. There are MLB players that are "bigger and (arguably) stronger" (BB was 6' 1" and between 210 - 228) currently playing that are not putting up nearly the numbers of Bonds. Why?

5. When will MLB start clocking bat speed as is done by the PGA? The technology is certainly available. (I do not expect an answer to this as there is no one here that can read the minds of the MLB powers that could effect the use of such instrumentation.)

tuttigym
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 4th, 2013 at 5:21:57 AM permalink
1. Most bat speed is generated by the whole body. Strong abdominals allow you to twist your body and generate the extra rotational velocity to increase bat speed. Leg strength is part of it too and allows you to transfer energy from back to front. Steroids increase muscle mass all over and produce an unfair advantage because it allows you to spend less time on working out and allows you to stay stronger longer. Barry Bonds was skilled too.

2. MLB players bat speed range between 65 - 85mph. Trajectory is key to hitting home runs in that the ball must be hit up.

3. Which MLB players will participate in such a study?

4. They're not taking PEDs.

5. Bat speed is quite measurable in golf because the ball is stationary as is the golfer. Not so in baseball. It's easy to measure bat speed off of a tee.

Name a hitter who was convicted of PED use and got better after they stopped using them?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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September 4th, 2013 at 11:56:54 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

1. Most bat speed is generated by the whole body. Strong abdominals allow you to twist your body and generate the extra rotational velocity to increase bat speed. Leg strength is part of it too and allows you to transfer energy from back to front. Steroids increase muscle mass all over and produce an unfair advantage because it allows you to spend less time on working out and allows you to stay stronger longer. Barry Bonds was skilled too.

2. MLB players bat speed range between 65 - 85mph. Trajectory is key to hitting home runs in that the ball must be hit up.

3. Which MLB players will participate in such a study?

4. They're not taking PEDs.

5. Bat speed is quite measurable in golf because the ball is stationary as is the golfer. Not so in baseball. It's easy to measure bat speed off of a tee.

Name a hitter who was convicted of PED use and got better after they stopped using them?



You know BM you are an encyclopedia of mis-information. First, with bat speed and HRs where the pitches are at least 88 mph which is factually incorrect and untrue. Second, MLB players "bat speed range between 65-85 mph." If that info is available, give us a link or a viable reference site as your number 5 above quite clearly states that bat speed in baseball is not measurable when hitting a moving object like a baseball. Third, a research effort to determine bat speed and muscle mass w/o PED's would be welcome, easy, and doable. If you had any background in sports medicine or research, you could figure it out. Fourth, they are currently measuring ball exit speed off the bat at selected games, so measuring bat speed at impact is also technologically possible.

Perhaps you could name all the baseball players in the majors and minors who used PED's who did not get better or who did not make it to the big show at all.

BTW, if you google HGH and read from the Mayo Clinic web site, it specifically states that HGH can increase muscle mass but "the increase in muscle DOESN'T translate into increased strength."

Can you tell me how it is possible for Jack Nicklaus to win the Masters at age 46 or better yet how in the world Tom Watson can come within one hole of winning The Open Championship (British Open) at the age of 60+? Those guys must have cheated and been on something, right?

tuttigym
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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September 4th, 2013 at 12:59:51 PM permalink
Who needs science, when we have our thoughts and feelings? Good ol' seat-of-the-pants reckoning is the best way to go, sez I.
NO KILL I
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 4th, 2013 at 1:47:24 PM permalink
Sure, i'm the encyclopedia of misinformation. You're the one making the claims, not me.

A research effort to relate bat speed and muscle mass is useless because of all of the other variables. Bat speed varies based on a number of other factors, including player movement, so any practice on bat speed will just increase it without increasing muscle mass. Researchers know that they can't create a study to isolate muscle mass from all of the other factors involved in hitting a ball.

Bat speed IS measured off a tee, but it is not really possible to measure bat speed in game with a moving baseball, a moving player, and a moving bat. Read my second statement. It is easy to measure bat speed off a tee, and it's been measured.

Hittracker has all of the speed off bats for all home runs and for this year, they range from 88.1 (312 foot home run) to 120.1mph (475 feet). The COR of a baseball ranges from .55 in perfect conditions to .48 at 100% humidity (http://www.laserpablo.com/baseball/Kagan/CORandHumidors.pdf). If you threw a baseball at a wooden wall, the return speed of the baseball would be 55% of the speed of the ball at 0% humidity and 48% at 100% humidity. Coors Field humidifies their balls to keep them from sailing out of the park. And, it has been shown that the faster the baseball hits the target, the lower the COR (by about 5 points again), and the properties of the bat itself lower the COR down to about .38 (http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/ProgressPerformanceBats.pdf).

So, you can deduce bat speed. We know the speed off the bat and these are all available for every home run using ESPN's hittracker. If a fastball is coming in at 92mph the ball is 84mph by the time it hits the bat. With a COR of about .38 your return ball speed is about 32mph on a stationary bat presuming full contact. Add the bat speed to this and you can see that the fastest bat speed is about 88mph while the slowest is about 60mph (therefore my 65 - 85mph estimate). (http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/batw8.html).

PEDs don't guarantee success. They aid it. Barry Bonds, Melky Cabrera, A-Rod, McGwire would all be major league players without PEDs. They wouldn't have been as successful because they would not have had the time to build up the muscle mass and keep their strength compared to other athletes.

And yeah, increased muscle mass doesn't translate into increased strength. You have to do the additional piece - working out.

Golf is about accuracy, not distance. Tiger Woods is the number one golfer in the world due to all aspects of the game. John Daly has been long known as the person with the longest drive, but he doesn't win tournaments because the rest of his game stinks.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 4th, 2013 at 5:18:44 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Face: With all due respect you cannot actually believe "the intangibles equaling Skill and Talent" are anywhere near the same for all major league players. If that were true at least 75% of them would be hitting over .300 (that is my inference) rather than 1% or so. There are starters on teams batting less than .200, and the majority of players are hitting less than .250 with less than 15 HRs many of them absolutely ripped and fit. No sport has that kind of physiological or physical similarities regarding "skill and talent." The disparity from top to bottom is huge.

As far as your assumptions regarding Bonds, you or anybody else have no way of knowing what his physical "peak" was or if his "intangibles" were the same. You cannot tell me or anyone else what his bat speed was at age 28 or 42 or for that matter what anybody's bat speed was or is simply because while everybody who is watching any game gets informed of every pitch speed, there is no record of the bat speed of any player on any hit ball during a game.

Your assumptions are strictly guesswork with absolutely no science to back it up. Which goes back to the original questions:
How much "strength" (muscles mass) does it take to hit a 90mph fastball 400 feet?
How does one measure that "strength" in terms everyone can understand?

tuttigym

PS boymimbo is really wrong about the slowest pitch hit for a HR, and I challenge him to produce the totality of statistics of HRs hit so far this season and the accompanying pitch speed.

What if they are identical twins?
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tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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September 5th, 2013 at 3:21:51 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What if they are identical twins?



Well to start with, they have different and unique fingerprints.

tuttigym
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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September 5th, 2013 at 6:40:42 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



First, I need to apologize to you for the comment concerning "ball speed" exit and HRs. I mis-read that part of one of your early posts believing you wrote PITCH speed. I was wrong. That information you provided was indeed correct.

I also know that you sincerely believe that PEDs give some type of advantage to users. That is where we have our real disagreement.

I will comment on parts of your previous post later.

tuttigym

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