Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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August 30th, 2013 at 5:28:54 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

My argument is that they shouldn't be illegal at all. Any more than vitamins, surgery, eyeglasses or a 6-day workout regimen. You do whatcha gotta do to get ahead. Only the weaker players are crying that it's unfair.



I have no problem if they are legal, other than it ruins the long history, at least in baseball, of the game being played almost exactly the same so stats can be fairly compared. Its historical stats and records that are the victims.

You are wrong that it is the weak that are complaining. It is the law abiding players. I chose not to use steroids (HGH and other LED's weren't around yet). I was at a disadvantage and I knew it. My basic skill and natural talent was better than some that were better than me because they hit home runs. I was not weak. I was honest.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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August 30th, 2013 at 5:39:26 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

My argument is that they shouldn't be illegal at all. Any more than vitamins, surgery, eyeglasses or a 6-day workout regimen. You do whatcha gotta do to get ahead. Only the weaker players are crying that it's unfair.


It's not even a question of fairness, it's a question of changing the game. You could move in the fences 100 feet and give everyone corked bats -- that'd be fair too, but it wouldn't be the same game as last year.

The rules say PEDs are cheating, so they are. Arguing that PEDs should be allowed is no different than arguing for any other rule change. The question is whether the rule change would be a good one. There are lots of reasons why PEDs should not be allowed in MLB, but I can't think of a compelling reason to allow them. What's yours?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
zippyboy
zippyboy
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
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August 30th, 2013 at 6:35:01 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: zippyboy

My argument is that they shouldn't be illegal at all. Any more than vitamins, surgery, eyeglasses or a 6-day workout regimen. You do whatcha gotta do to get ahead. Only the weaker players are crying that it's unfair.


It's not even a question of fairness, it's a question of changing the game. You could move in the fences 100 feet and give everyone corked bats -- that'd be fair too, but it wouldn't be the same game as last year.

The rules say PEDs are cheating, so they are. Arguing that PEDs should be allowed is no different than arguing for any other rule change. The question is whether the rule change would be a good one. There are lots of reasons why PEDs should not be allowed in MLB, but I can't think of a compelling reason to allow them. What's yours?


Times change. Sports change. Why are those oversize graphite racquets not cheating in tennis these days? They certainly didn't have them in Arthur Ashe's time, yet we still compare players in the "modern era" of Grand Slam events.

Do you not think Schwarzenegger was juicing to get that body? Shouldn't we put an asterisk next to all his Mr. Olympia trophies?

I question all the attention on baseball and PEDs. Why not boxing, football, body building, etc? Is it only due to the history of the game? Then why aren't all baseball stadiums built the same? Were people 100 years ago complaining that Fenway's Green Monster was unfair to the home team? I just don't get the hypocrisy.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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August 30th, 2013 at 7:40:40 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

I question all the attention on baseball and PEDs. Why not boxing, football, body building, etc? Is it only due to the history of the game? Then why aren't all baseball stadiums built the same? Were people 100 years ago complaining that Fenwick's Green Monster was unfair to the home team? I just don't get the hypocrisy.


I don't get the hypocrisy either. Fenwick?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
zippyboy
zippyboy
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August 30th, 2013 at 8:00:20 PM permalink
oops, sorry, corrected. My grandmother's maiden name was Fenwick. No excuse, but the point is....green monster seems like an uneven battlefield to me....were people complaining back then about this new hurdle like people are now about PEDs?

Times change. People should adapt. People aren't whining that new racecars have more horsepower and thus are unfair, are they?
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
Zcore13
Zcore13
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August 30th, 2013 at 8:00:45 PM permalink
Almost the exact same thing I was going to say. There's a difference between tradition and hypocrisy. And it's Fenway. :)

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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August 30th, 2013 at 8:18:55 PM permalink
I think there's something more to the PEDs, and that is that for players to stay competitive with users, they have to use themselves. A player shouldn't have to risk his health beyond what is expected of the sport in order to be on a fair field. At least when you play at Fenway, the dimensions are the same for both teams. We're seeing it right now, with current players turning against users because they don't want to jack themselves.
NO KILL I
TomG
TomG
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September 2nd, 2013 at 2:36:16 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

You cannot tell me or anyone else what his bat speed was at age 28 or 42 or for that matter what anybody's bat speed was or is simply because while everybody who is watching any game gets informed of every pitch speed, there is no record of the bat speed of any player on any hit ball during a game



But anyone can tell you what his home run totals were when he wasn't using drugs and when he was, according to both Game of Shadows and MLB drug testing results

Before Bonds started taking drugs, from 1986 through 1998, he hit 411 home runs in 6621 at bats; a home run in 6.2% of all at bats
While Bonds was on drugs, from 1999 through 2004, he hit 292 home runs in 2477 at bats; a home run in 11.8% of all at bats

Further, every year from 1999 through 04, he had a better home run rate than even his best year before his drug use started

After 2004 he was subjected to drug testing, so either stopped using or only used in a way that would produce a false negative

Quote: tuttigym

How much "strength" (muscles mass) does it take to hit a 90mph fastball 400 feet?
How does one measure that "strength" in terms everyone can understand?



The first question has already been answered, you just choose to ignore everything humans have learned about physics
You already agreed this strength is measured in home runs hit. Over the past 20 years, there have been documented drug users who displayed some of the greatest home run strength: Bonds, McGwire, Rodriguez. . .

Quote: tuttigym

Conseco, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, and the rest were scammed, conned out of thousands of $$$ trying to get that edge. Just like the really smart investors reaping unreal returns from the money sharks and con men.



According to baseballreference, Bonds is fourth in history in career salary (two of the players ahead of him have been suspended for using drugs). Of that $188 million, 71% of that came after he started using drugs, despite accounting for ony 41% of years played. If the drugs offered only a placebo effect, it was an extremely profitable choice. It is virtually impossibly the drug use provided zero benefit, given how much his home run rate changed. It's obvious to everyone that you're the one being scammed for believing these drugs do not provide any benefit
TomG
TomG
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September 2nd, 2013 at 2:41:38 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist


The rules say PEDs are cheating, so they are. Arguing that PEDs should be allowed is no different than arguing for any other rule change. The question is whether the rule change would be a good one. There are lots of reasons why PEDs should not be allowed in MLB, but I can't think of a compelling reason to allow them. What's yours?



It is well established that drug prohibition does not stop drug use. Do you really believe that focusing on punishment of users instead of health and safety of them is universally and unconditionally the best way to protect all communities from the harmful effects of drug use and abuse?
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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September 2nd, 2013 at 3:28:45 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

It is well established that drug prohibition does not stop drug use. Do you really believe that focusing on punishment of users instead of health and safety of them is universally and unconditionally the best way to protect all communities from the harmful effects of drug use and abuse?



For adults the answer is "Absolutely". Adults that take drugs know or can easily find out the ill effects. They are choosing not to know if they don't. They choose to use them to feel better or try to gain an advantage over others. Education will not work for people that don't care because the benefits of using them, in their mind, outweigh the risks.

Kids are a different story. Education is hugely important.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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