boymimbo
boymimbo
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August 29th, 2013 at 11:35:18 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym


I guess you are failing to see that your accomplishments after your increase in strength defies the basis of my argument in that there were no chemicals necessary to enhance your HR performance. Otherwise everything else stated makes my argument. The only thing we will never know is what bat speed you generated prior to your increase in muscle mass, and what bat speed was managed after your "growth." Your anecdotal "evidence" only makes the case for a sensible weight training program which all teams pursue. And thanks for the affirmation in the last paragraph above (except for the "steroids/game changer" comment).



No, I think what Face is saying is that his bat speed INCREASED with his weight training, as bat speed (primarily) and bat weight are the two major factors in being able to hit a home run. Steroids raise the ceiling on weight training and allows your body to heal faster which allows you to train for longer and allows you to become more strong which allows you to increase bat speed and to use a heavier bat which generates home runs.

Pretty simple really.

As for caffeine, it's actually very easy to up your caffeine intake via concetrated energy drinks. 5 hour energy for example is in a vial. It's very easy to down 3 of these and effectively drink 48 oz of coffee.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Face
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Face
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August 29th, 2013 at 12:14:49 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

No, I think what Face is saying is that his bat speed INCREASED with his weight training, as bat speed (primarily) and bat weight are the two major factors in being able to hit a home run. Steroids raise the ceiling on weight training and allows your body to heal faster which allows you to train for longer and allows you to become more strong which allows you to increase bat speed and to use a heavier bat which generates home runs.

Pretty simple really.



I wasn't even being so specific as saying it was BAT SPEED or POWER or WHATEVER. All I know, and what should be obvious, is that if all the intangibles are equal (intangibles equaling the "Skill and Talent", the hand-eye, the motor skills, etc), which they pretty much are at that level, then the one who has reached the highest physical level will be better at power moves like home run hitting.

Barry Bonds was a goddamn good player. He was a good player when he was 170lbs and at his physical peak. He gained recognition not by getting "better", he did so by getting "bigger". All his intangibles stayed the same, it was his physical stats, the ones whose bars were raised by the use of PEDs, that made him a record breaker.

Pretty simple, indeed
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Mosca
Mosca
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August 29th, 2013 at 7:13:59 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Face is right on the money and Mosca is too. Saying that"s the top 1% of the top 1% is an overstatement as well.

There are many things most people can do with a lot of practice. Someone here might be able to put in the incredible effort to become a top person in their field. Someone else might be able to play on the same course as a PGA golfer or same lanes as a PBA bowler, and hold their own. I would be willing to bet good money that nobody here, no matter how much practice can walk only the field and hit more than .100 against a major league pitcher.

I've been behind the plate when a pitcher was throwing a 97mph fastball and 92mph slider. It's SICK! And to a MLB player, its another day at the office, except that is why failing 7 out of 10 times makes you an All-Star.

ZCore13



Hit it? I don't think I could CATCH it. In fact, I don't even think I could call the pitches.
NO KILL I
TomG
TomG
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August 30th, 2013 at 8:11:01 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Now here is something that provides real insight into the steroids "myth" or false premise, i.e. reflexive bat speed "but strength challenged," hand-eye coordination, acute kinesthetic sense (bat trajectory changes to adjust to ball speed, flight, and direction), and fine motor control (skill). There is NO chemical or chemical cocktail that will do any of that either individually or in a coordinated combination.



If an athlete does have those skills, an increase in other attributes such as bat speed, accuracy, and resistance to fatigue and trauma, will definitely make them a much better player

There have been lots of baseball players throughout history who did excel at everything you list, yet still struggled. Certain drugs would have helped them
tuttigym
tuttigym
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August 30th, 2013 at 2:51:18 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I wasn't even being so specific as saying it was BAT SPEED or POWER or WHATEVER. All I know, and what should be obvious, is that if all the intangibles are equal (intangibles equaling the "Skill and Talent", the hand-eye, the motor skills, etc), which they pretty much are at that level, then the one who has reached the highest physical level will be better at power moves like home run hitting.

Barry Bonds was a goddamn good player. He was a good player when he was 170lbs and at his physical peak. He gained recognition not by getting "better", he did so by getting "bigger". All his intangibles stayed the same, it was his physical stats, the ones whose bars were raised by the use of PEDs, that made him a record breaker.

Pretty simple, indeed



Face: With all due respect you cannot actually believe "the intangibles equaling Skill and Talent" are anywhere near the same for all major league players. If that were true at least 75% of them would be hitting over .300 (that is my inference) rather than 1% or so. There are starters on teams batting less than .200, and the majority of players are hitting less than .250 with less than 15 HRs many of them absolutely ripped and fit. No sport has that kind of physiological or physical similarities regarding "skill and talent." The disparity from top to bottom is huge.

As far as your assumptions regarding Bonds, you or anybody else have no way of knowing what his physical "peak" was or if his "intangibles" were the same. You cannot tell me or anyone else what his bat speed was at age 28 or 42 or for that matter what anybody's bat speed was or is simply because while everybody who is watching any game gets informed of every pitch speed, there is no record of the bat speed of any player on any hit ball during a game.

Your assumptions are strictly guesswork with absolutely no science to back it up. Which goes back to the original questions:
How much "strength" (muscles mass) does it take to hit a 90mph fastball 400 feet?
How does one measure that "strength" in terms everyone can understand?

tuttigym

PS boymimbo is really wrong about the slowest pitch hit for a HR, and I challenge him to produce the totality of statistics of HRs hit so far this season and the accompanying pitch speed.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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August 30th, 2013 at 2:58:36 PM permalink
The best performance enhancement would be better eyesight to hit a baseball, but not really available. The best hitters can see the ball better than the rest.
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tuttigym
tuttigym
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August 30th, 2013 at 3:06:33 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

tuttigym,

You're missing the point that if two people with the same basic build and some workout regiment and same work ethic and same basic recovery system do all the same stuff, except for one of them takes HGH and the other doesn't, one will become stronger than the other. And if they both started with the same skills, the player taking the HGH will end up hitting the ball harder and farther and/or throwing the ball harder.

I'm not sure why you aren't seeing this???

ZCore13



ZCore13: I note that your background is in insurance and not biochemistry, physiology, kinesiology, or body mechanics. I point this out because your statement above is absolutely false and there is no science to back it up. While two people (athletes) might have similar builds or body types and the same work ethic, their physiology's and body chemistry's will always be different and therefore their physiological maximums for any given set of skills, size, and strength will be different.

Show us all the science from which you are pronouncing these conclusions.

tuttigym
Face
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Face
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August 30th, 2013 at 3:10:54 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Face: With all due respect you cannot actually believe "the intangibles equaling Skill and Talent" are anywhere near the same for all major league players.



I do. I might be off mark, but it seems you're looking only at all pro ball players, a "micro" view. Yes, within that .0001% of the population that are pro ball players, the "intangibles" vary greatly. Ozzie Smith and Ted Williams and Mark McGuire have nothing in common, and their skills and accomplishments can't hold a candle to each other. However, when looking at all of the population, the "macro" view, the "intangibles" don't differ that much from each other. They're all guys who can throw 150' on a rope, can track and hit any thrown ball into play, and can read a ball coming at them and get into position to intercept it. "Micro" view, no. "Macro" view, absolutely.

Quote: tuttigym

As far as your assumptions regarding Bonds, you or anybody else have no way of knowing what his physical "peak" was or if his "intangibles" were the same. You cannot tell me or anyone else what his bat speed was at age 28 or 42 or for that matter what anybody's bat speed was or is simply because while everybody who is watching any game gets informed of every pitch speed, there is no record of the bat speed of any player on any hit ball during a game.



I sure can't. But when you see 170lb Barry, whose spent his whole life acquiring and maintaining his peak performance, all of the sudden gain 70lbs and start jacking balls deep, and has been proven to use PEDs,... to quote boymimbo - "Pretty simple actually."

Quote: tuttigym

Your assumptions are strictly guesswork with absolutely no science to back it up.



Well, at least we agree on something =)
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tuttigym
tuttigym
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August 30th, 2013 at 3:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

The best performance enhancement would be better eyesight to hit a baseball, but not really available. The best hitters can see the ball better than the rest.



Dan Uggla just had Lasik surgery. His vision went from 20/30 to 20/15. That is a pretty significant improvement. He is still striking out, so while he might be able to see the ball better, his reaction time and kinesthetic sense has not measurably improved at the same level yet.

tuttigym
Beardgoat
Beardgoat
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August 30th, 2013 at 3:12:56 PM permalink
Tuttigym's next topic... Water doesn't get you wet

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