Please help me understand this math (Mini bac)...
July 24th, 2013 at 11:46:27 AM
permalink
Hello to all!
I'm new here, so please take it easy on me if I'm asking what seems to have already been answered or may be obvious to others.
(I tried to search and could not find the answer.)
The other night at a Minibac table, I noticed a gentleman using a $100 "free play" coupon. Upon receiving his chips, he then placed $25 on the banker bet in addition to $25 on the player bet. Somewhat amused, I asked him the logic of this, as there was no possible way he could win. His response was that he was "putting in playing time with a good average bet".
This particular table offered the "Dragon bonus" bets, and I asked the individual why he did not also play those bets in the same fashion as his primary bets. He responded that he would, but that casino does not allow "hedging" on the Dragon bonus; he must play one or the other, not both.
The guy took a restroom break; while he was gone I started a conversation with the supervisor about this style of play.
The supervisor told me that they only rate him at what he can lose, not the amount he places on the bets.
"So you only give him a dollar average bet when he does this?", I asked.
He replied, "Correct, and even then we're probably still overrating him because we're gonna collect that commission on less than half the hands the dealer puts out. He might get the time in, but the low rating on his average cancels out the longer time of play."
"Why don't you allow him to also play both Dragon bets?"
"I don't know the exact reason, but I know we've never allowed it."
The only time I know of a casino to not allow bets is if it is somehow to their disadvantage. I went to the WoO site looking for an answer as to why the casino would not allow playing both Dragon bonus bets.
With a house edge of 9.37% on the banker dragon and 2.65% on the player dragon, how would the house edge be reduced if the guy were allowed to play both bets?
Can someone show me how to calculate the edge if the casino did allow this?
(BTW, 8 decks, standard bac rules and payouts.)
Thank you.
Rob
I'm new here, so please take it easy on me if I'm asking what seems to have already been answered or may be obvious to others.
(I tried to search and could not find the answer.)
The other night at a Minibac table, I noticed a gentleman using a $100 "free play" coupon. Upon receiving his chips, he then placed $25 on the banker bet in addition to $25 on the player bet. Somewhat amused, I asked him the logic of this, as there was no possible way he could win. His response was that he was "putting in playing time with a good average bet".
This particular table offered the "Dragon bonus" bets, and I asked the individual why he did not also play those bets in the same fashion as his primary bets. He responded that he would, but that casino does not allow "hedging" on the Dragon bonus; he must play one or the other, not both.
The guy took a restroom break; while he was gone I started a conversation with the supervisor about this style of play.
The supervisor told me that they only rate him at what he can lose, not the amount he places on the bets.
"So you only give him a dollar average bet when he does this?", I asked.
He replied, "Correct, and even then we're probably still overrating him because we're gonna collect that commission on less than half the hands the dealer puts out. He might get the time in, but the low rating on his average cancels out the longer time of play."
"Why don't you allow him to also play both Dragon bets?"
"I don't know the exact reason, but I know we've never allowed it."
The only time I know of a casino to not allow bets is if it is somehow to their disadvantage. I went to the WoO site looking for an answer as to why the casino would not allow playing both Dragon bonus bets.
With a house edge of 9.37% on the banker dragon and 2.65% on the player dragon, how would the house edge be reduced if the guy were allowed to play both bets?
Can someone show me how to calculate the edge if the casino did allow this?
(BTW, 8 decks, standard bac rules and payouts.)
Thank you.
Rob
July 24th, 2013 at 12:12:53 PM
permalink
If you're asking why they don't allow players to only play the Dragon (or in this case, the Dragon along with both Player & Banker bets), I assume that it has nothing to do with the House Advantage. I'm sure that the casinos do this simply because they make more money when someone bets Player/Banker rather than taking up a spot playing the Dragon only.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
July 24th, 2013 at 12:52:53 PM
permalink
Casinos are stupid when it comes to this stuff. They should allow you to make any and all hedge bets you want, and also fully rate you on them. All you are doing is lowering the variance. The casino's house edge is still the same.
July 24th, 2013 at 3:05:04 PM
permalink
That's really stupid, he should be fully rated at $50, at the very least at $25. They should roll out the welcome mat to anyone that wants to do this.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
July 24th, 2013 at 3:46:52 PM
permalink
I agree, fully rate him.. But previous posters are right, casino execs are morons.. Many that are there in the casino don't understand house edge.. Their bosses MIGHT know, but don't care.. They think more about how much money will we get TODAY.. and how quickly can we get it? If your betting high variance than you might get a better rating..
There's a guy that plays craps where I work.. He never buys in more than $40, only plays on himself and plays doey-don't with a couple bucks in the center.. It's as if he doesn't want to win, just wants to throw the dice.. The box either rate him at nothing or a dollar.. They think the lines bet cancel out so just don't count em.. They don't realize both have a house edge and both should be counted.. If he was rated properly, he'd get so many points the Shifts would freak out..... The thing is, I've NEVER seen him win.. It might take an hour or two but he always loses everything in several dozen sessions..
There's a guy that plays craps where I work.. He never buys in more than $40, only plays on himself and plays doey-don't with a couple bucks in the center.. It's as if he doesn't want to win, just wants to throw the dice.. The box either rate him at nothing or a dollar.. They think the lines bet cancel out so just don't count em.. They don't realize both have a house edge and both should be counted.. If he was rated properly, he'd get so many points the Shifts would freak out..... The thing is, I've NEVER seen him win.. It might take an hour or two but he always loses everything in several dozen sessions..
July 28th, 2013 at 5:32:57 PM
permalink
Thank you for the responses.
I returned to this same casino and investigated further.
To clarify, I wanted to know why they did not allow betting on BOTH dragon bets.
Here were the table limits and rules for betting:
BANKER or PLAYER bet: $15-$3000 Individual may choose one or bet both at same time. If betting on both, the bets can be different amounts, but EACH bet must be $15 minimum (cannot combine to satisfy minimum). For example, one cannot bet $10 on BANKER and $5 on PLAYER, then state that the $15 "minimum" is satisfied.
TIE bet: $1-$200 TIE bet may be the only bet or in conjunction with BANKER/PLAYER bets. If the TIE bet is the only bet, the minimum is $15.
DRAGON BONUS bet: $1-$75 May be bet alone or in conjunction with other bets. If individual elects to bet only the DRAGON BONUS, the minimum is $15 (same situation as playing only the TIE bet).
Under no circumstance may both Dragon bonus bets be played at the same time.
According to these rules, it seems evident that, yes, the casino is interested in getting a minimum of $15 worth of "action" for each hand dealt.
What I cannot understand is why the casino would not allow placing bets on both DRAGON BONUS bets in the same fashion as the BANKER/PLAYER bets.
On this second trip to the same casino, the same table was full, and a few individuals were betting heavily. The table minimum this time was $25.
A well-dressed man came over and shook hands with all of the players, and introduced himself to me as one of the shift managers. I spoke with him briefly, asking the same question about the DRAGON BONUS bets.
He stated that by playing both DRAGON BONUS bets at the same time, the likelihood of hitting the bigger payouts is greatly increased. I countered this by mentioning that for each time one of the bets wins, the other must lose, in addition to the many times that both bets lose.
He was actually a very amiable individual, and stated that if it could be proven that it would be of no detriment (or possibly even provide an advantage) to the casino, he would approach his bosses (whomever that may be) with the possibility of a rule change.
I have experienced a similar situation in a different casino that offers EZ Baccarat. They would not allow betting on both the DRAGON 7 and the PANDA 8.
How can I convince these people that there is no harm in playing both DRAGON BONUS bets? I have witnessed other players attempting to circumvent this rule. "Here's $5, I'll bet the BANKER DRAGON and you bet the PLAYER DRAGON."
Actually, I don't even want to convince them, since I do not have a desire to play in such a manner. But I would like to satisfy my own curiosity.
I returned to this same casino and investigated further.
To clarify, I wanted to know why they did not allow betting on BOTH dragon bets.
Here were the table limits and rules for betting:
BANKER or PLAYER bet: $15-$3000 Individual may choose one or bet both at same time. If betting on both, the bets can be different amounts, but EACH bet must be $15 minimum (cannot combine to satisfy minimum). For example, one cannot bet $10 on BANKER and $5 on PLAYER, then state that the $15 "minimum" is satisfied.
TIE bet: $1-$200 TIE bet may be the only bet or in conjunction with BANKER/PLAYER bets. If the TIE bet is the only bet, the minimum is $15.
DRAGON BONUS bet: $1-$75 May be bet alone or in conjunction with other bets. If individual elects to bet only the DRAGON BONUS, the minimum is $15 (same situation as playing only the TIE bet).
Under no circumstance may both Dragon bonus bets be played at the same time.
According to these rules, it seems evident that, yes, the casino is interested in getting a minimum of $15 worth of "action" for each hand dealt.
What I cannot understand is why the casino would not allow placing bets on both DRAGON BONUS bets in the same fashion as the BANKER/PLAYER bets.
On this second trip to the same casino, the same table was full, and a few individuals were betting heavily. The table minimum this time was $25.
A well-dressed man came over and shook hands with all of the players, and introduced himself to me as one of the shift managers. I spoke with him briefly, asking the same question about the DRAGON BONUS bets.
He stated that by playing both DRAGON BONUS bets at the same time, the likelihood of hitting the bigger payouts is greatly increased. I countered this by mentioning that for each time one of the bets wins, the other must lose, in addition to the many times that both bets lose.
He was actually a very amiable individual, and stated that if it could be proven that it would be of no detriment (or possibly even provide an advantage) to the casino, he would approach his bosses (whomever that may be) with the possibility of a rule change.
I have experienced a similar situation in a different casino that offers EZ Baccarat. They would not allow betting on both the DRAGON 7 and the PANDA 8.
How can I convince these people that there is no harm in playing both DRAGON BONUS bets? I have witnessed other players attempting to circumvent this rule. "Here's $5, I'll bet the BANKER DRAGON and you bet the PLAYER DRAGON."
Actually, I don't even want to convince them, since I do not have a desire to play in such a manner. But I would like to satisfy my own curiosity.
July 28th, 2013 at 5:43:05 PM
permalink
I think we should clarify which type of Dragon bet you're referring to. I had assumed that you meant the Dragon bet on EZ Baccarat, but it sounds like you're talking about the Player/Banker Dragon where the bet wins whenever the hand wins by a certain amount.
If that's the case, then I have no idea why that particular casino doesn't allow a player to bet both Dragons. I see both bets being made at the same time quite often. Plus, since the HA is relatively high, it's stupid for the casino to not allow this.
If that's the case, then I have no idea why that particular casino doesn't allow a player to bet both Dragons. I see both bets being made at the same time quite often. Plus, since the HA is relatively high, it's stupid for the casino to not allow this.
That's just plain stupid on the casino's part. Guess they don't want players' money. lolQuote: rob45I have experienced a similar situation in a different casino that offers EZ Baccarat. They would not allow betting on both the DRAGON 7 and the PANDA 8.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
July 28th, 2013 at 6:04:42 PM
permalink
Quote:BANKER or PLAYER bet: $15-$3000 Individual may choose one or bet both at same time. If betting on both, the bets can be different amounts, but EACH bet must be $15 minimum (cannot combine to satisfy minimum). For example, one cannot bet $10 on BANKER and $5 on PLAYER, then state that the $15 "minimum" is satisfied.
TIE bet: $1-$200 TIE bet may be the only bet or in conjunction with BANKER/PLAYER bets. If the TIE bet is the only bet, the minimum is $15.
3G's on Bank/Player and $200 on Ties. Yup, they're morons all right. Jeez, $400 Ties at least.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
November 30th, 2013 at 10:38:05 AM
permalink
One of the stupidest ways to play I have ever witnessed. There is this old fella, you know the type, been playing for over 20 years thinks they know it all, constructs a booklet of info while playing, betting both sides at the same time, usually with a chip value difference of $5, not every hand mind you.
So $15 on the Bank and $10 on the Player, later it might be $60 on one side and $65 on the other, if it gets really bad, then it might be, $100 one side and $105 the other. The stupid thing is, he is sitting at a table were if the Banker wins on a 6 he only get's half. Even the dealer and pit staff shake their head in disbelief. Once he got hit by three Banker 6's in the one shoe.
So being the nice guy I am, I said to him one day, why don't you just bet the difference, I got a curt reply "why should I", and mind my own business.
Then there is another old timer, bets the table minimum $10 or sometimes $5 one side and $10 the other, who writes down every single card drawn, he uses symbols for the 10's. So during a break, thinking he is doing some kind of card tracking, perhaps, high v's low, odd v's even (who knows), I asked him 'how's it going'. Turns out he does it out of boredom and then I had to listen to 10 years of gambling woes, never can win, lose every time, not matter what game he has played. You know one of those moments you wish you never had taken.
Recently an ethnic young guy buys in for $100, and gets real lucky betting the perfect pairs, turning that $100 into $2500 at the end of one shoe. I said make sure you lock that in, he was so happy and agreed he was was leaving. 20 min's later he is at another table and yes you guessed it, gave it all back. Now if you work on a percentage basis, $100 into $2500 is not a bad rate of return.
What is it with casino punters? Most too stupid to realize, too dumb to change their way's. I've seen it all, Chinese guy being £27000 up after one shoe, ordering champagne at the bar. Manager saying to another manager "don't worry we will get it back", I think they were surprised to get it all back plus his stake in the very next shoe which was Punto dominated.
Last night, somebody was telling me, about somebody else being $15k up and how much do they want to win, again they left broke, but more to the point, I don't care, how others play; win, lose, give it back is none of my business. Casino's have their fair share of idiotic players, gathering at their social venue for the deluded, some simply stop going and discover the internet instead.
So $15 on the Bank and $10 on the Player, later it might be $60 on one side and $65 on the other, if it gets really bad, then it might be, $100 one side and $105 the other. The stupid thing is, he is sitting at a table were if the Banker wins on a 6 he only get's half. Even the dealer and pit staff shake their head in disbelief. Once he got hit by three Banker 6's in the one shoe.
So being the nice guy I am, I said to him one day, why don't you just bet the difference, I got a curt reply "why should I", and mind my own business.
Then there is another old timer, bets the table minimum $10 or sometimes $5 one side and $10 the other, who writes down every single card drawn, he uses symbols for the 10's. So during a break, thinking he is doing some kind of card tracking, perhaps, high v's low, odd v's even (who knows), I asked him 'how's it going'. Turns out he does it out of boredom and then I had to listen to 10 years of gambling woes, never can win, lose every time, not matter what game he has played. You know one of those moments you wish you never had taken.
Recently an ethnic young guy buys in for $100, and gets real lucky betting the perfect pairs, turning that $100 into $2500 at the end of one shoe. I said make sure you lock that in, he was so happy and agreed he was was leaving. 20 min's later he is at another table and yes you guessed it, gave it all back. Now if you work on a percentage basis, $100 into $2500 is not a bad rate of return.
What is it with casino punters? Most too stupid to realize, too dumb to change their way's. I've seen it all, Chinese guy being £27000 up after one shoe, ordering champagne at the bar. Manager saying to another manager "don't worry we will get it back", I think they were surprised to get it all back plus his stake in the very next shoe which was Punto dominated.
Last night, somebody was telling me, about somebody else being $15k up and how much do they want to win, again they left broke, but more to the point, I don't care, how others play; win, lose, give it back is none of my business. Casino's have their fair share of idiotic players, gathering at their social venue for the deluded, some simply stop going and discover the internet instead.
December 2nd, 2013 at 11:07:57 AM
permalink
egalite
This was an interesting idea, when playing with free play money.
When we play it here it is converted to chips after we bet, and before
it is a vouture or different type of chip. If you win you get the the chips
back, if you lose, well you get nothing.
If you bet $25 in free play on the pass line with $25 of your money
and another $25 in free play plus your matching bet money on dont pass,
except for a 12 now and then, you could convert all your free play.
dicesetter
This was an interesting idea, when playing with free play money.
When we play it here it is converted to chips after we bet, and before
it is a vouture or different type of chip. If you win you get the the chips
back, if you lose, well you get nothing.
If you bet $25 in free play on the pass line with $25 of your money
and another $25 in free play plus your matching bet money on dont pass,
except for a 12 now and then, you could convert all your free play.
dicesetter
