If there were no tips, what would be a fair LV dealer wage?

I am older than Dan. Besides working in pool room owned by one of the biggest bookies on the East coast, I also set pins in a duckpin bowling alley. This was in 1956-57, before Sherman automatic pinsetters and later Brunswick pinsetters,

I mention this because us pin boys had our own way of handling the winner of a pot game who did not tip. Put the 1 pin just in front of the metal needle and the 5 pin just behind it's needle. Impossible to see by the bowler, but he would not win another game.

Occasionally a chump would walk down the lanes to inspect the set-up, in which case I would meet him halfway. Of course ,being clumsy, I would knock the pins down as I walked thru them. And carried a duckpin with me in case he wanted to do more than discuss his bad luck LOL

" did anyone else had such a gambling introduction as a kid? "

Yeah, ME . Not all of it was good though, Sometimes I would hustle a guy with a wife and kids out of his $100 pay check. Then lend him $20, which I never expected to be repaid, just so he would not go home broke. Not my proudest memory.

Quote: Paigowdan

Well...Why do you think??!!

I already answered that. I think, you keep bringing it up because you are insecure.

Quote:

Because experinece counts

It does ... when you are filling a job application, or asking your manager for a raise.
Not when chatting with strangers on an internet forum about an entirely unrelated matter.

Quote: buzzpaff

" did anyone else had such a gambling introduction as a kid? "

Yeah, ME . Not all of it was good though, Sometimes I would hustle a guy with a wife and kids out of his $100 pay check.

Buzz, I Never did anything nefarious to use, as I was just trying to learn the odds, and about all the games, and what it was all about; I was learning to become a gambler, and not a thief; those two thing actually are different. That's what I was talking about.

Quote: buzzpaff

Then lend him $20, which I never expected to be repaid, just so he would not go home broke. Not my proudest memory.

And neither would I be.
It depends on the use that you make of it all.

Quote: CrystalMath

Although your metaphor is humorous, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, veterinarians earn a median wage of $82,040 per year (May 2010). They also go to school for 7 years. I think they are underpaid at 82k.

Very interesting these statistics. I know a few regular veterinarians and it would surprise me if they make less than $300k per year. I have seen my job listed and the salary they list is far less than the STARTING salary for me to get anyone to even remotely be interested in applying for a job. They list orthopedic surgeons at $200k or such, my guess is that is closer to their quarterly income, not yearly. By the way, for what it is worth, it is usually harder to get into veterinary school than medical school.

Yeah, some of the stats seem very low, but some seem right on.

My sister is a veterinarian, and I'm certain she doesn't even come close to 300k, but she does exceed 82k. For veterinarians, the pay varies by state as well, and the pay is higher in states that do not have a veterinary school. The starting pay is attrocious in Colorado because of Colorado State University and it is pretty low in Texas, which has A&M.

I suspect that veterinarians have about the same rigor of education as a doctor, but they will never earn the same as doctors because everyone puts a dollar limit on their pet; we never put a dollar limit on a human.

" I was learning to become a gambler, and not a thief; "

A bit harsh there Dan. When I hustled pool, I NEVER laid down to get a bet. Not my fault if my opponent
underestimated the talents of a skinny kid. It's called GAMBLING.

" Where did you think I gambled, and met the bookies?? "

You do know that making book is illegal and card counting is not ?

Quote: Paigowdan

Buzz, I Never did anything nefarious to use, as I was just trying to learn the odds, and about all the games, and what it was all about; I was learning to become a gambler, and not a thief; those two thing actually are different. .

And who said they are the same. What an odd thing
to say. If I go into a casino, at their invitation, to
try and beat their games, to 'do my best', and I
have an actual edge, thats fair as fair can be. If
a casino doesn't want that to happen, they have
to offer games that can't be beaten.

Quote: Paigowdan

Actually I pretty much did so. I was computer executive at a New York private college running mainframe computers who was outsourced seven years ago at 45 years of age. I sold my New York Condo and spent my severance on dealers school, relocating to las Vegas, and getting re-employed here - instead of crying about "there's no job, it's SOOO tough" - or complaining about China.
By the way, here in las Vegas, after having re-made it, so to speak - I have for the past several years been buying new Ford motorcars from Gaudin Ford of Las Vegas, including a 2011 Ford Focus my wife took over, and ordered a 2013 Ford Fusion. Now am I pissed about Globalization? A little.

But what am I going to do? - I am trading in a Hyundai (previously bought new) - to buy that "American-nameplate Ford" here in Las Vegas from a retired Las Vegas gaming executive. What do you want me to do? The Ford salesman I bought it from was a former Boyd Gaming V.P. now working a retirement career as a Ford salesman in Las Vegas. This is as American as it gets now. I'm working as a dealer here, and just now getting some game designs really out, almost all in the U.S., and spending it all on American nameplates and living here.


That is, if get get out of the basement den of ther parent's house, put down the Coor's light, turn off the game, and get out there to go to school or work or something like that.

Bingo. And it's their fault, if to blame.

You wouldn't say that if you were the receptionist or doctor.

You could have bought a Camry or an Accord. Unlike the Fusion, they're made in the United States.

Quote: 1BB

You could have bought a Camry or an Accord. Unlike the Fusion, they're made in the United States.

Yes. Camry is built in Georgetown, KY; Accord is built in Marysville, OH.

Spent plenty of time in both facilities when I used to be a working stiff.
The Camry/Accord are more "American" than anything the Big Three is producing.

By the way, I don't tip car "dealers" either.

" By the way, I don't tip car "dealers" either. "

Even when he goes in the backroom to fight with the owner to get you a better deal. LOL

Quote: CrystalMath

I suspect that veterinarians have about the same rigor of education as a doctor, but they will never earn the same as doctors because everyone puts a dollar limit on their pet; we never put a dollar limit on a human.

I agree on the rigor of the education, but not on the residency part. I doubt after vet school there are any 7 year residencies, like neuro or cardiac surgery. And, NOTHING can be further from the truth about 'putting a dolar value' on a human. Patients will stop taking prescriptions if it is not free! They will delay surgery if it is 'not covered'. Patients do not want to pay ONE DOLLAR. A lady I know, not swimming in money, has a dog which needs some sort of 'eyelash surgery'. She will be paying over $1000 out of her pocket for the 30 minute procedure. My partner had her itty bitty dog's teeth cleaned, which required her to be put to sleep. $400.

I tip dealers, but I find it somewhat repugnant.
They didn't do anything for me except sit or
stand there and do their job. A waitress gets
me more coffee, extra gravy, more salad
dressing on the side. The dealer didn't make
me win or help me win, he did nothing for
me.

I think I'm talking myself out of future tipping,
lol.

Quote: MakingBook

By the way, I don't tip car "dealers" either.

That's because they do work on comission. It also means they're more pushy.

BTW, one way to kill casino gambling would be to pass a law giving dealers a comission based on the hold.

Quote: MakingBook

Yes. Camry is built in Georgetown, KY; Accord is built in Marysville, OH.

Spent plenty of time in both facilities when I used to be a working stiff.
The Camry/Accord are more "American" than anything the Big Three is producing.

By the way, I don't tip car "dealers" either.

Don't surrender to them either.

I find much of this discourse to be ridiculous, no offense intended.

I have no idea how a delaer gets compared to a gas station clerk, bank teller, or any number of other menial cash-handling occupations.

The gas station attendant handles one customer, one transaction, at a time. He has a cash register into which he scans the items (inputs the amount of gas the customer asks for), the machine tells him the total, the customer hands him the money, he inputs the money, and the register tells him what change to give. I've had a total of $13.45 at a grocery store, and the cashier has accidentally hit the, "$20.00," button when I handed him/her a fifty. The cashier will then look with confusion at the $50.00 bill, "6.55 can't be right." The cashier will then look around for a supervisor, or reach for a calculator.

I might chime in with, "Add $30, the change is $36.55, the difference between what I gave you and what you put in is $30.00."

The cashier still verifies with the supervisor.

Having been a PM Shift Manager at a grocery store, I can say that person may not be a bad cashier, one mistake, especially if it gets corrected and doesn't put the drawer off. Grocery store managers are mainly concerned with attendance, anyway, that's where the most predominant problem with cashiers is, often. I'd give the cashier a little, "Just be more careful if you are going to use the Quick $20 or Quick $50 button, type in the numbers individually if that will help."

Again, perfectly tolerable mistake for a cashier, expected, almost. That cashier wouldn't last three days at a casino, not because he/she hit the wrong button, but because he/she couldn't figure out to add $30.00 to the change the register was saying to give on his/her own.

Bank teller is a little more appropriate, but still not quite there. I would say that a bank teller is expected not to make a mistake such as inputting the incorrect amount, whether it be a deposit, withdrawal, cash-in or cash-out. The teller still only deals with one customer at a time, has the computer telling him/her what to do, and should only be doing one transaction at a time...sometimes they try to get fancy, though...and sometimes that doesn't go very well.

The point is that only the dealer is in the position to deal with multiple customers at a time, with varying amounts of money all over the table. The dealer also has to make sure that the amounts of money on the table do not change (cappers), when the teller cashes a check, the amount of the check is not going to change. If the total at the gas station is changed, it's because the customer handed the cashier another item which was scanned.

Players are also prone to error, whereas, I have not observed too many customers making errors at the gas station or bank, and that doesn't even take into consideration the intentional, "Errors," such as capping bets.

The cashiers and tellers have to be friendly and process transactions from customers who are unlikely to make an error, and even less likely to attempt any deliberate subterfuge. In the event that a customer did put one over on the cashier, in a crafty way, the cashier would likely be forgiven as soon as it became known what happened based on the camera. If the house gets cheated at the casino, especially with respect to capping bets, it is considered to be so because the dealer did not do his job.

Further, there aren't any gas station degenerates in terms of spending the rent money because they are addicted to pumping gas, and a customer at the bank can only withdraw what is in his/her account. I would be shocked to hear that any more than 1/10,000 people that walk into the bank to complete a transaction do so inebriated. There are drunks at the gas station, admittedly, but they don't have to be dealt with for hours, they usually just buy their stuff, make a bunch of noise, and leave. The attendant can even threaten an especially boisterous drunk with police action, while the dealers have to deal with the drunks because they are a fact of life...and probably a not unimportant part of the business. All of this while being cheerful and not making mistakes.

I have never dealt, but in my observations, the only job comparable to being a dealer is being a dealer.

$12-$26/hour, depending on market and demands of casino.

Quote: Mission146

The point is that only the dealer is in the position to deal with multiple customers at a time, with varying amounts of money all over the table.

Sure. The gas station attendant on the other hand deals with toxic, highly flammable fluids, a Dunkin Donuts worker handles food, a dish washer operates a machine ...
Every job has something that differs it from others. What's your point?

Quote: weaselman

Every job has something that differs it from others. What's your point?

I got tips as a bartender and as a cab driver. But
they tipped for service, that I was in a position to
give them better service. What can a dealer do for
me that he isn't doing for everybody else? NOTHING!

I'm realizing I tip dealers because I'm expected to.
I tip the wairtess so she'll remember me and bring
my drink faster. I tip the maids so they'll do a good
job tomorrow. I'll tip the front desk if the give me
an upgrade. Tipping a dealer gets me nothing.

This thread is a revelation.

Quote: EvenBob

I got tips as a bartender and as a cab driver. But
they tipped for service, that I was in a position to
give them better service. What can a dealer do for
me that he isn't doing for everybody else? NOTHING!

It is actually not all that different with a bartender or a cab driver. Think about it. What is it that you are getting from a bartender for your tip? More booze in your glass? That just means that either he was cheating on you before, or he is cheating on his boss now. Either way, a dealer could do the same thing if he wanted to. Make a mistake or two in your favor for example ... There is nothing either of them can do for you within the bounds of the law, because you have already paid for their service, and now they just want to be paid again for the same thing. The boss isn't paying them enough, and it is somehow believed to be your problem. Mind boggling.

The ironic thing is, you are not expected to tip people who really can and do go extra miles for you. Nurses (that give you an extra sponge bath because you felt like it), doctors (that give you a prescription over the phone even though they could make you come to the office and feel miserable), police officers (that let you off with a warning because they liked your smile)... bus drivers (that waited for you instead of shutting the door in front of your nose) ... Those people work normal paying jobs, so you don't have to subsidize them.

But a waitress in a lousy restaurant somehow deserves 20% of my steak simply because she brought it to me, and did not spit in the plate. Oh well ...

" Either way, a dealer could do the same thing if he wanted to. Make a mistake ore two in your favor for example "

Lots of counter share that feeling. If a dealer puts his career on the line, I might, I said might, tip the dealer !

Quote: weaselman

It is actually not all that different with a bartender or a cab driver.

Give them exrta booze, be nice to them. In a cab you
can get them there faster, take a shorter route. A
dealer is powerless to give you anything, he can only
deal the game. Tipping a dealer makes no sense.

Steve Wynn hates dealer tips because he feels that
money should be spent in the casinos. But he has to
let it happen, he can't give them what they make in
tips.

Quote: EvenBob

Give them exrta booze, be nice to them.

Extra booze is cheating. Being nice is part of the job.
Either way, the dealer can do both of those things (cheat for you, and be nice) as well. I am just saying, it is not any different - if you think it is reasonable to tip a bartender, it should be just as reasonable for a dealer as well, and the other way around.

Quote:

Steve Wynn hates dealer tips because he feels that
money should be spent in the casinos. But he has to
let it happen, he can't give them what they make in
tips.

I don't get that logic. My employer probably isn't paying me what I would make in tips if I could accept them from customers either. Tough life. So what?

Quote: weaselman

Extra booze is cheating. Being nice is part of the job.

Extra booze isn't cheating, I was the boss, I
know. We did a free pour like everybody
else, where you hold the bottle over the
glass and estimate when its been 1.5oz.
Its an understanding you have with the
bartenders that they can be more generous
with tippers. The markup on booze in a
bar is incredible and a happy regular is
worth his weight in rotgut bourbon.

And no, we don't get paid to be nice, we
get paid to pour booze.

Quote: EvenBob

The markup on booze in a
bar is incredible and a happy regular is
worth his weight in rotgut bourbon.

This is just so backwards... To the boss, a happy regular is good business regardless of the tips. If the bartenders were "more generous" with everybody, you'd have more business. But instead, you have "an understanding" with them, that they will stiff the cheapskates who don't tip enough, so that they will be unhappy, and won't come back. But a guy, who is in town on business and will leave tomorrow to never return is getting free booze from you because he throws dollar bills at the bartender.
That's business?

Basically, you are too cheap to pay your bartenders, so you are letting them to sell your booze and pocket the profits ... Nice.

Quote:

And no, we don't get paid to be nice, we get paid to pour booze.

So are the dealers. They are paid to deal cards. So, if you want them to be nice, you can tip them too. Told ya - no difference.

Quote: weaselman

This is just so backwards... To the boss, a happy regular is good business regardless of the tips. If the bartenders were "more generous" with everybody, you'd have more business

.

You really don't understand the bar business. Giving
somebody a little extra is not giving him twice as
much. All bars were like that, booze is cheap. The
problem you don't want is bartenders stealing from
you, which is very easy to do and hard to detect. So
you give them a way to make tips. I paid $3.00
for a litre of cheap vodka and bourbon and sold it
for $33. Thats an 1100% mark up. What did I care,
owning a bar is a license to steal money.

Quote: weaselman

Sure. The gas station attendant on the other hand deals with toxic, highly flammable fluids, a Dunkin Donuts worker handles food, a dish washer operates a machine ...
Every job has something that differs it from others. What's your point?

I thought it was level of difficulty, but maybe I didn't make that apparent enough. I can understand that being around toxic and highly flammable fluids is not the safest job, nor the best for your lungs in the long-term, but it seems that there isn't anything mentally-excruciating about the process.

Is my limited bartending experience different from that of everyone here, or do bartenders not generally get minimum wage? I didn't think the bar owner was too cheap to do anything, considering I got minimum wage and kept all my tips.

Quote: Mission146

I can understand that being around toxic and highly flammable fluids is not the safest job, nor the best for your lungs in the long-term, but it seems that there isn't anything mentally-excruciating about the process.

Excruciating? No, I don't think so. But then, I don't see anything "excruciating" about being a dealer too ... "Handling transactions" is "excruciating"? Please ...
I guess, it is a matter of opinion. Some people might find an activity "excruciating", while others do it as a hobby. It is beyond the point though. I you find an activity "excruciating", you simply should not be doing it, no matter what it pays, tips or not. Live it to people who can tolerate it better. Like my brother in law, who has fear of heights, would never become an airline pilot. Now, that would be excruciating for him.

Quote: Mission146

I didn't think the bar owner was too cheap to do anything, considering I got minimum wage and kept all my tips.

By too cheap, I mean that the bar underpays its employees making them, as Paigowdan once put it, "rely on the kindness of strangers", aka, tips to make a living. I think, it is demeaning to the employees, and a rip off for the customers, that somehow became customary around here.

Quote: EvenBob

owning a bar is a license to steal money.

So is working in one, if the owner is not careful.

Dealers get tipped to go "that extra margin" for a customer even if that extra margin is a bit vague as to its existence and extent.

A salaried dealer can stand there like a jerk and dampen the players enthusiasm but a tipped dealer will be part of the game and fully focused in seeing everyone has a good time and gets a fair shake. The players realize this and appreciate a bit of extra attention.

Just as the waitress has to bring you the food so too does the dealer have to count out your chips, but his speed and cheerfulness and overall efficiency are important.

Quote: FleaStiff

So is working in one, if the owner is not careful.

Dealers get tipped to go "that extra margin" for a customer even if that extra margin is a bit vague as to its existence and extent.

A salaried dealer can stand there like a jerk and dampen the players enthusiasm but a tipped dealer will be part of the game and fully focused in seeing everyone has a good time and gets a fair shake. The players realize this and appreciate a bit of extra attention.

Just as the waitress has to bring you the food so too does the dealer have to count out your chips, but his speed and cheerfulness and overall efficiency are important.

It's just that most people are doing their best at work simply because they know it is the only ethical and honorable thing to do, while the others expect do be paid extra for not doing a lousy job. And the rest of us got brainwashed with the "cultural" and "customary" bullshit and think it is how it is supposed to be. That sucks.

Quote: FleaStiff

So is working in one, if the owner is not careful.

Dealers get tipped to go "that extra margin" for a customer even if that extra margin is a bit vague as to its existence and extent.

A salaried dealer can stand there like a jerk and dampen the players enthusiasm but a tipped dealer will be part of the game and fully focused in seeing everyone has a good time and gets a fair shake. The players realize this and appreciate a bit of extra attention.

Just as the waitress has to bring you the food so too does the dealer have to count out your chips, but his speed and cheerfulness and overall efficiency are important.

It's just that most people are doing their best at work simply because they know it is the only ethical and honorable thing to do, while the others expect do be paid extra for not doing a lousy job. And the rest of us got brainwashed with the "cultural" and "customary" bullshit and think it is how it is supposed to be. That sucks.

Its been my experience that most people who use the words ethics or honor are the ones doing the brainwashing.

Quote: weaselman

Excruciating? No, I don't think so. But then, I don't see anything "excruciating" about being a dealer too ... "Handling transactions" is "excruciating"? Please ...
I guess, it is a matter of opinion. Some people might find an activity "excruciating", while others do it as a hobby. It is beyond the point though. I you find an activity "excruciating", you simply should not be doing it, no matter what it pays, tips or not. Live it to people who can tolerate it better. Like my brother in law, who has fear of heights, would never become an airline pilot. Now, that would be excruciating for him.

I will admit that excruciating was an overstatement. I would think that it would be more difficult to deal Craps or Roulette than the majority of the card games just because you have all those bets all over the place. Perhaps I should have said, "Comparatively excruciating," compared to having a PoS or Computer telling you exactly what to do.

I just think it requires more skill to be a dealer than it does a gas station attendant, and if you have more skill than the next guy, you are theoretically less expendable. If you are less expendable than Joe Schmoe, then you should make more money.

I'm just thinking in terms of if I were on the bottom-tier of wage-earners, as I was in H.S. and the first half of college. If I had to pick a job, assuming they paid the same hourly, based on ease of work, I'd take grocery store cashier, gas station attendant, bank teller and then dealer, only considering those four occupations.

Quote:

By too cheap, I mean that the bar underpays its employees making them, as Paigowdan once put it, "rely on the kindness of strangers", aka, tips to make a living. I think, it is demeaning to the employees, and a rip off for the customers, that somehow became customary around here.

I can't really speak to that very much. I tended bar for a relatively short time during after I got out of H.S. You can do that in W.V. as long as there is an employee who is 21 or older on the premises, at least, you could then, I don't know if that is still the case. I found MW + Tips more than fair, and quite frankly, if there were no tips, I would have done it for just slightly more than MW...or maybe even still for MW. I guess that would depend on the bar. This place was more of a, "Club," comprised mostly of old-timer regulars, so it was pretty easy work. I probably dished out fifty or more beers for every mixed drink I ever had to make.

Quote: Mission146

I probably dished out fifty or more beers for every mixed drink I ever had to make.

It was the opposite in my bar. The previous
owner didn't have beer on tap because he
said there's no money in beer drinkers. We
had ond brand of beer, Bud, in long necks.
We sold 90%+ mixed drinks, thats where
all the profit in a bar is. Tap beer attracts
a younger crowd and they have to drink
a ton of it to match the 1100% markup
on hard liquor.

Quote: EvenBob

It was the opposite in my bar. The previous
owner didn't have beer on tap because he
said there's no money in beer drinkers. We
had ond brand of beer, Bud, in long necks.
We sold 90%+ mixed drinks, thats where
all the profit in a bar is. Tap beer attracts
a younger crowd and they have to drink
a ton of it to match the 1100% markup
on hard liquor.

We didn't have tap, just cans or bottles, mostly domestic, a few imports. The markup on them was still about 300%, though, so a bar can survive on selling beers almost exclusively as long as the volume is there, I would imagine. The volume was definitely there, too, as long as they all didn't die. Mostly retired guys. The bar's still there and still with the same name, (still no VP machines, I have heard) but I don't know whether or not it is the same owner.

Food sales were also generally pretty good, we had a ton of (single) older gentlemen that would take both lunch and dinner there, and food prices were pretty good at the time. I think that our daily revenue was, on average, about $450. This is just a guess, but having seen the bills (and stabbing in the dark at taxes) I would imagine the percentage of that seen as profit was probably about 20%, or $32,850/year. The owner of the bar himself was semi-retired at the time, he worked in the steel mills for about 30 years, so he didn't need the money, anyway. He just owned the bar because it gave him a good excuse to be at the bar all the time, his words, not mine!

Bar's seldom go under if they're run right.
The previous owner said all you need is
20 regular customers a day, and we had
at least 50. I got out because I was doing
what all the bar owners in town were doing,
drinking too much. You can't help it, people
are always buying you drinks and if you
always turn them down they get really insulted.

Quote: EvenBob

I got tips as a bartender and as a cab driver. But
they tipped for service, that I was in a position to
give them better service. What can a dealer do for
me that he isn't doing for everybody else? NOTHING!

That's not true.

If you smoke I can make sure you have an ashtray, and that it gets emptied every time you snuff one out.
I can get you matches if your lighter died.
I can get you a cocktail waitress if you're thirsty, or point you to a self-serve station if you're in a hurry.
I can point you toward the restroom, the atm, or any of the restaurants. Even the exit, if you're that lost.
I can remember if you like your double down card up or down and always give it to you that way.
I can remember that when you buy in for $500 you want $400 green, $90 red, $10 white, and make sure you get it.
When you cheque change for whites to play the progressive I can drop 1 of them on the light for you.
When the progressive light doesn't want to work I can make it light up and you can relax in your chair.
I can remember your name, where you're from, your occupation, and half dozen other bits of info to make you feel like you're playing with a friend.

That's just off the top of my head, I bet I could come up with a bunch more if I wasn't pressed for time and had to get to work.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

That's not true.

If you smoke I can make sure you have an ashtray, and that it gets emptied every time you snuff one out.
I can get you matches if your lighter died.
I can get you a cocktail waitress if you're thirsty, or point you to a self-serve station if you're in a hurry.
I can point you toward the restroom, the atm, or any of the restaurants. Even the exit, if you're that lost.

And these are all things that dealers are on
record as saying they hate. The number one
thing on the dealer forum that they hate
most is a player asking 'where's the waitress'.
The second is 'where's the bathroom'. If
you think all dealers happily do these things,
you're 100% wrong. At a busy tables I never
see dealers emptying ashtrays, the pit does
it. None of the things you list do dealers do
willingly, in fact, some of them are belligerent
about doing any of them.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

That's not true.

If you smoke I can make sure you have an ashtray, and that it gets emptied every time you snuff one out.
I can get you matches if your lighter died.
I can get you a cocktail waitress if you're thirsty, or point you to a self-serve station if you're in a hurry.
I can point you toward the restroom, the atm, or any of the restaurants. Even the exit, if you're that lost.
I can remember if you like your double down card up or down and always give it to you that way.
I can remember that when you buy in for $500 you want $400 green, $90 red, $10 white, and make sure you get it.
When you cheque change for whites to play the progressive I can drop 1 of them on the light for you.
When the progressive light doesn't want to work I can make it light up and you can relax in your chair.
I can remember your name, where you're from, your occupation, and half dozen other bits of info to make you feel like you're playing with a friend.

That's just off the top of my head, I bet I could come up with a bunch more if I wasn't pressed for time and had to get to work.

Once again, this is EXACTLY what is wrong with tipping. If I owned the establishment I would want my dealers, who are in 'customer service', to do those things for EVERY customer. Your implication is that the STANDARD is poor service, but if you tip you get good service.

If you don't tip a dealer, whats he going to do,
screw up your game? Hate you? He hates you
even if you do tip him, and he can't do anything
to make you lose. And if he doesn't make enough
in tips, he'll find another job. The pool of potential
trainable dealers is bottomless in any economy.
Its unskilled labor.

Anyone can cut hair, all they need is a comb, scissors, and maybe clippers. A good hair person is hard to find, and people usually stick with the ones they like. There are an endless pool of dealers, but are they any good?

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

There are an endless pool of dealers, but are they any good?

As good as the ones there now. How many
dealers in any casino would be considered
good dealers? Less then 50% for sure.

The question seems complex. It could also be read as "How much of a house edge would you suffer if dealers were not allowed to accept tips?"

I also think most people are going to answer somewhere in the ballpark of 60-70% of their current income up to a point like 40k and be completely ignorant of the cost of living difference between where they live and Las Vegas. According to areavibes.com (a site I know nothing about so it could be total BS), the median income in Las Vegas is $28,678. I would think that a dealer's income should hit that mark or just above based on how I rate the difficulty of the job relative to other jobs in the Las Vegas area.

I tip because it is worth it to me to not feel awkward for being outside the social norms but I wonder how much my tips are actually valued in the first place. With pooling tips, every time I throw $5 their way it is like giving them a nickel. How excited can they really be for that? I understand that low limit tables and graveyard shift will be screwed if you don't split tips but I wonder why casinos have not addressed that with some kind of scaled division of tips and a reduction of non-necessary staffing. It seems like you could make it so the dealer gets 15% of the tips for their shift and then the rest are pooled.

Quote: SOOPOO

Once again, this is EXACTLY what is wrong with tipping. If I owned the establishment I would want my dealers, who are in 'customer service', to do those things for EVERY customer. Your implication is that the STANDARD is poor service, but if you tip you get good service.

No, that's your erroneous conclusion.

I give the same level of service to all guests, if they tip, great, if not, no big deal. I take PaigowDan's attitude on the subject. I do my job and the tips take care of themselves.

Quote: EvenBob

And these are all things that dealers are on
record as saying they hate.

Where can I look up this record?

Quote: EvenBob

The number one
thing on the dealer forum that they hate
most is a player asking 'where's the waitress'.

Doesn't bother me at all. What's the URL of this "dealer forum"?

Quote: EvenBob

The second is 'where's the bathroom'.

Doesn't bother me either. I point to the nearest one and say, "Look for the big neon sign, you can't miss it."

Quote: EvenBob

If you think all dealers happily do these things,
you're 100% wrong.

If you think all dealers feel the way you're describing you're 100% wrong. And from your statements it looks like you're a lot closer to saying that than I was to saying what you're attributing to me. Recall, if you will, my statements all included "I" in them. I spoke only for myself.

Quote: EvenBob

At a busy tables I never
see dealers emptying ashtrays, the pit does
it.

Of course they do it, I never said the dealer did it. I said I could make it happen. And I can. And I do.

Quote: EvenBob

None of the things you list do dealers do
willingly, in fact, some of them are belligerent
about doing any of them.

Wrong again, I do them willingly, and they don't bother me at all, it's just part of the job. If it bothered me to do them I'd find a different job.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I give the same level of service to all guests, if they tip, great, if not, no big deal. I take PaigowDan's attitude on the subject. I do my job and the tips take care of themselves.

Haven't you just listed above a whole bunch of things you would only do for people that tip?
Or did I misunderstand? Your post was in response to EvenBob's suggestion that tipping dealers does not make sense, because you would not get better service from them if you tip.

Quote: Mission146

If I had to pick a job, assuming they paid the same hourly, based on ease of work, I'd take grocery store cashier, gas station attendant, bank teller and then dealer, only considering those four occupations.

Interesting ... my order of priorities would be exactly opposite to yours, starting with the dealer, and ending with the grocery store cashier. To me, the latter is the worst job ever, if not in the whole world, then definitely out of the four choices you listed.

Quote: weaselman

Haven't you just listed above a whole bunch of things you would only do for people that tip?
Or did I misunderstand? Your post was in response to EvenBob's suggestion that tipping dealers does not make sense, because you would not get better service from them if you tip.

While I quoted 1 specific post of Bob's I was keeping in mind his statements that a dealer could only deal him cards and not do any other service for him.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

While I quoted 1 specific post of Bob's I was keeping in mind his statements that a dealer could only deal him cards and not do any other service for him.

That was not quite what he said. His point was that it is pointless to tip, because you are not going to get any better service if you do.

Bob is simply wrong:
1. Dealers are in constant non-stop contact with the players at a table for an hour at a time; aside from hourly breaks for a few minutes, the dealer does not leave the table to go to the drinks well, check with the chef, go the cash register by the kitchen, what have you. Quite often is more thack with you than blessed by your magnanimous and high-minded presence.

2. Toxic chemicals? I have filled my own gas tank thousands of times without the help of a gas pump jockey, and have neither been over-run with toxic chemicals or caught fire. Slide the ATM card, press start, insert the nozzle, fill the tank. This is an easy, unskilled job. Considering the mix of players at every table, the threat or the annoyance to a dealer is not the easy and routine actions (shuffling, handing someone an ashtray, flagging a cocktail waitress,) it is often VERY toxic players, so…..

3. Everything minor that dealers do (calling for the waitress, supply an ashtray, make needless change mid-round, supply answers and directions to the nearest rest room, advising on the best on-property restaurants, etc.) are no biggie, and are never hardships of any sort - in lieu of calculating and processing a sea of chips and their transactions in the midst of a sea of shot-takers, claimers, and demanding AP Players on a crap game as quickly as possible in front of supervision and surveillance.

4. Dealers also have to make calls:
- Determining when a player is a problem player for the table, or is shot-taker to be monitored by the floor. Trust me, on this, the dealer’s view of the player is the front-line determinant on this action.
- Whether to approve a late bet or a needless mid-round change as a courtesy when it is not a game protection threat. (When a dealer says, “Sir – I will color you up at the end of your play,” he may be hoping FOR the end of your play.)
- To keep a game going, the dealer might not have to wait for a “slow-bie” to make a late bet, he may say “No more bets, the dice are out,” - and move the dice out. Your number hit, and didn’t get your bet in? Too bad, don’t expect the dealer to handle your game for as a fully personalized service with others at the table, which he will be more inclined to do if you're gracious, generous, or both.

50% percent of dealers are not great, and 50% are very fine, and it all boils down to maintaining attitude when confronted with toxic people, which is the real toxic issue for dealers. Toxic chemistry seems to follow toxic people around. The math and skills are extensive, and the fact that people comment that many dealers are NOT good openly indicates that dealing is indeed a skilled job, in addition to fully being a service oriented job. This I think is both clear and undeniable, - and obvious when pointed out. But dealing hand skills are learnable by anyone who applies himself, though the people skills are toughest to master, as the job is often offensive because of (you guessed it) - just people.

Last night after work at about 3AM, I went to Hooters with my brother Bob, who was in town. We played dice, and there was an obnoxious player making book (in the thousands), and he was a TON of work to deal to; I was standing opposite the fine dealer. This player was making late bets, questioning every payout, snapping his fingers at the cocktail waitress (who for SOME reason seem to take forever to return to this guy with a drink - and usually way too weak and watered-down for his liking....). On coloring up to leave, he presents about $2,750 in Black and green, and the boxman colors it up cleanly, clearly displaying the amounts in a profesional, by-the-book style. Again, this guy snaps his fingers at the Boxman, "Yoa, my man, you sure dat's right??" - like to a servant - and the boxman patiently counts it down again for the player's approval. It was $2,753. The guy takes five purple, two black, two quarters, and three $1 white chips, and hands in the three $1 chips to his base dealer after clearing a profit of $2,200, saying "For you, My Man," with a thumbs up sign and thank you, not caring what he really threw in aside from an empty jesture to save face. Dealer simply says, "Thank you, Sir, we appreciate this." Everybody at the table (meaning me and Bob) threw in a few dollars or nickels for dealer bets just out of a sense of shame.
Now, this dealer could have faced the guy leaving, and turned into a Robert DeNero on the spot: "You talking to me, buddy?? You SURE you can SPARE this three dollars?? Because IF you really need it, you know, I can contribute it to you for gas money or something, buddy." A number of dealers would have said something, and many who don't simply discuss these incidents the same way waiters discuss such doozies at restaurant forums.

He chose to shrug it off and ignore it, which is the best action. A Zen master who puts in a days work, earns his money, and takes no pointless troubles home. It all averages out. Some people are working on a pass to heaven, and some are working on their pass to hell, and we're just witnessing it all, and should have a care or an upset over a lot of this stuff. But we can't help but to notice.

Edit: I will say that I notice that some posters are quite pleased by fine service they consistently receive from dealers, while others are annoyed and flummoxed by the poor service they consistently recieve and feel don't feel they deserve. Now...if we can only isolate the "elusive variable" in these equations.....