Possible poker-based game format with 100% skill, 0% luck using Pai Gow hand structure? Opinions?
October 4th, 2011 at 2:50:33 PM
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My friend and I have come up with a heads-up Poker game very much unlike other variants out there. Before you dismiss this as another lame Poker variant, hear me out: this thread is more about the concept and game theory considerations than the actual game I'm offering here.
I find that this poker structure is substantially more challenging, engaging, and an interesting game theory concept if played with Pai Gow tiles (dominoes), however this format will also work with Pai Gow Poker, Chinese Poker, or 7-14-21 hand rankings.
Here's how we play using Pai Gow tiles: both players start with however many chips they want, preferably as cash chips rather than in a sit-n-go format. The button (Hero) evaluates his four tiles (or, for those who don't understand Pai Gow tiles, but understand Pai Gow Poker or Chinese Poker, his 7- or 13- card hand). Hero then has the option of betting as much money as he wants to open, or fold for free with no penalty. If he opens, then the other player (Villain) may fold or raise up to the pot limit. (I haven't decided whether this game plays best with limit, pot limit, or no limit betting structure, but I believe that no limit for the opening bet is critical to this game concept).
The betting continues for this one and only round until there is a call or a fold. If either Hero or Villain calls and stops the betting, then both players sort their tiles/cards however they please, either defensively or aggressively. For Pai Gow tiles, for example, if Hero's tiles are two Teen tiles (12), a 3/4 and a 6-1, he can play a 12-12 pair for almost a guaranteed lock on the high hand and a piece of crap 4 for the low, or he can split them to create a more balanced 9-9 hand, which in itself may be high enough to scoop. His opinion on which way to sort his hand can change ENTIRELY based on the action during the betting rounds, as sorting his hand one way rather than another can be the difference between a win, push, or loss. The players then reveal their low and high hands for the showdown.
An equivalent for Pai Gow poker would be a hand with a pair of aces as the low and a crappy two pair for the high for a guaranteed chop, but with the option of breaking them up to try to scoop. I haven't tried this game with Chinese Poker or 7-14-21, but it should be similar. I believe that Pai Gow Poker and Chinese Poker are only worth it for getting the feel for this type of betting format and that 7-14-21 is vastly superior if this game is played with cards due to the options offered on which side to focus hand strength.
Like in regular Pai Gow, the button WINS copies, therefore giving the button a unique advantage and edge. This makes playing weaker hands "out of position" less advantageous. For Pai Gow tiles, the volatility and button edge skyrockets if you choose to play where you disregard tile rankings to resolve ties and simply award ties as wins to the button. An optional additional rule is that the non-button is forced to sort his tiles/cards first, perhaps giving off tells as to his approach to sorting his hand through hesitation and contemplation.
The reason I claimed that this game might have a 0% luck factor is that there is no forced bet and no commitment to subpar hands. A player makes his own decision on whether to commit to any given hand and may fold at absolutely no cost. Players have an incentive to open relatively often if they have interesting tiles to work with. This game plays similarly to Pot Limit Omaha Hi-Lo when a player can be ultra-aggressive if he is essentially freerolling by having a near-guaranteed push at worst. I think this resolves any issue of "fold-fold-fold-fold-fold-folding". I acknowledge this game can play in an extremely nitty fashion, so I encourage drinking alcohol while trying this out. :D Either that, or killing the "no luck" element by introducing antes or blinds.
Opinions? Has anyone offered a similar concept before?
I find that this poker structure is substantially more challenging, engaging, and an interesting game theory concept if played with Pai Gow tiles (dominoes), however this format will also work with Pai Gow Poker, Chinese Poker, or 7-14-21 hand rankings.
Here's how we play using Pai Gow tiles: both players start with however many chips they want, preferably as cash chips rather than in a sit-n-go format. The button (Hero) evaluates his four tiles (or, for those who don't understand Pai Gow tiles, but understand Pai Gow Poker or Chinese Poker, his 7- or 13- card hand). Hero then has the option of betting as much money as he wants to open, or fold for free with no penalty. If he opens, then the other player (Villain) may fold or raise up to the pot limit. (I haven't decided whether this game plays best with limit, pot limit, or no limit betting structure, but I believe that no limit for the opening bet is critical to this game concept).
The betting continues for this one and only round until there is a call or a fold. If either Hero or Villain calls and stops the betting, then both players sort their tiles/cards however they please, either defensively or aggressively. For Pai Gow tiles, for example, if Hero's tiles are two Teen tiles (12), a 3/4 and a 6-1, he can play a 12-12 pair for almost a guaranteed lock on the high hand and a piece of crap 4 for the low, or he can split them to create a more balanced 9-9 hand, which in itself may be high enough to scoop. His opinion on which way to sort his hand can change ENTIRELY based on the action during the betting rounds, as sorting his hand one way rather than another can be the difference between a win, push, or loss. The players then reveal their low and high hands for the showdown.
An equivalent for Pai Gow poker would be a hand with a pair of aces as the low and a crappy two pair for the high for a guaranteed chop, but with the option of breaking them up to try to scoop. I haven't tried this game with Chinese Poker or 7-14-21, but it should be similar. I believe that Pai Gow Poker and Chinese Poker are only worth it for getting the feel for this type of betting format and that 7-14-21 is vastly superior if this game is played with cards due to the options offered on which side to focus hand strength.
Like in regular Pai Gow, the button WINS copies, therefore giving the button a unique advantage and edge. This makes playing weaker hands "out of position" less advantageous. For Pai Gow tiles, the volatility and button edge skyrockets if you choose to play where you disregard tile rankings to resolve ties and simply award ties as wins to the button. An optional additional rule is that the non-button is forced to sort his tiles/cards first, perhaps giving off tells as to his approach to sorting his hand through hesitation and contemplation.
The reason I claimed that this game might have a 0% luck factor is that there is no forced bet and no commitment to subpar hands. A player makes his own decision on whether to commit to any given hand and may fold at absolutely no cost. Players have an incentive to open relatively often if they have interesting tiles to work with. This game plays similarly to Pot Limit Omaha Hi-Lo when a player can be ultra-aggressive if he is essentially freerolling by having a near-guaranteed push at worst. I think this resolves any issue of "fold-fold-fold-fold-fold-folding". I acknowledge this game can play in an extremely nitty fashion, so I encourage drinking alcohol while trying this out. :D Either that, or killing the "no luck" element by introducing antes or blinds.
Opinions? Has anyone offered a similar concept before?
October 4th, 2011 at 6:15:36 PM
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It sounds like there is still a lot of luck involved, especially since sharp players will only enter the fray with unbeatable hands (there is no penalty for being patient). What is the incentive to play with anything less than the nuts?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
