Math & Logic for Poker Tournament Rebuys
May 8th, 2011 at 11:25:52 PM
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What is the optimal math / logic for whether or not it makes sense to rebuy and/or add on in a given poker tournament?
May 8th, 2011 at 11:44:58 PM
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In poker there is rarely a straightforward number on which to base your decisions. Whether it's calling a bet, playing 2 cards preflop, or bluffing on the river, some of it is math and some of it is feel.
Some people say that if you feel you are one of the stronger players at the table it's always +ev to add on. I never like to add on though unless I'm shortstacked and need the extra chips to make an all in carry some weight or the add on would make me the chip leader at the table. Otherwise if you know what you are doing a medium stack is just fine at the normally early point in the tourney add ons are offered. I'd rather get that extra profit.
Some people say that if you feel you are one of the stronger players at the table it's always +ev to add on. I never like to add on though unless I'm shortstacked and need the extra chips to make an all in carry some weight or the add on would make me the chip leader at the table. Otherwise if you know what you are doing a medium stack is just fine at the normally early point in the tourney add ons are offered. I'd rather get that extra profit.
May 9th, 2011 at 5:08:09 AM
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Way too many factors to make a simple answer.
Some tourneys have an optional add-on, but only when you first buy-in. Some you can add-on but only up to a certain blind level. Some have re-buys but only up to a certain blind level. Some have both.
What gets crazy is the re-buy rule that you have to bust out to rebuy. This causes a lot of stupid play on the part of the low stacks, right before the rebuy period ends.
Whether or not it's worth it is a function of the ratio of the cost and number of chips, compared to the ratio of the initial buy-in and starting stack.
Of course, none of those numbers matter if you feel you're playing against superior players. On the flip side, they also don't matter if you're against inferior players who happen to suck out on you.
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I played in a cheap ($30? $35?) tourney a few years back at O'Shea's. When I bought in and counted my change, it was $5 short. When I asked, they said it's for the optional add-on, but that everyone takes it. Do I want to not take it? Naturally, I took it....
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Harrah's LV has a free-roll at I think 7:00am, I think every day. The starting stack is 500 chips. I got seated in the middle of the second blind level, and the dealer asks if I want the $5 add-on. I actually asked how many chips it was, but then immediately said, "Screw it, it's five bucks. I'll take it." The add-on is 1,000 chips. The prize for that "free roll" was kinda cheap, but that add-on is how they financed it. Harrah's didn't make any money, but it didn't cost them either.
Some tourneys have an optional add-on, but only when you first buy-in. Some you can add-on but only up to a certain blind level. Some have re-buys but only up to a certain blind level. Some have both.
What gets crazy is the re-buy rule that you have to bust out to rebuy. This causes a lot of stupid play on the part of the low stacks, right before the rebuy period ends.
Whether or not it's worth it is a function of the ratio of the cost and number of chips, compared to the ratio of the initial buy-in and starting stack.
Of course, none of those numbers matter if you feel you're playing against superior players. On the flip side, they also don't matter if you're against inferior players who happen to suck out on you.
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I played in a cheap ($30? $35?) tourney a few years back at O'Shea's. When I bought in and counted my change, it was $5 short. When I asked, they said it's for the optional add-on, but that everyone takes it. Do I want to not take it? Naturally, I took it....
---
Harrah's LV has a free-roll at I think 7:00am, I think every day. The starting stack is 500 chips. I got seated in the middle of the second blind level, and the dealer asks if I want the $5 add-on. I actually asked how many chips it was, but then immediately said, "Screw it, it's five bucks. I'll take it." The add-on is 1,000 chips. The prize for that "free roll" was kinda cheap, but that add-on is how they financed it. Harrah's didn't make any money, but it didn't cost them either.
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May 9th, 2011 at 8:24:22 AM
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I am assuming you are talking about on-line poker?
I always have 20 buyins for any game I am playing, so if I am playing $200+$20 Freezouts I have to have $4400 in my account to do it, if I have less, I drop back down to the $175 or $150 level.
I rarely play rebuys, as the style at rebuy tables, does not suit my style well. But on the rare occasion I do play a R/A I allow 4 rebuys, thats the initial buy-in, a top up, a rebuy and a top up, and one add on.
If I bust twice I am done, and save the 5th rebuy. I rarely bust out early in any case, and by then your stack could be too low to have a real presence at the table. So I value a $20 rebuy as a $100 freeze.
I always have 20 buyins for any game I am playing, so if I am playing $200+$20 Freezouts I have to have $4400 in my account to do it, if I have less, I drop back down to the $175 or $150 level.
I rarely play rebuys, as the style at rebuy tables, does not suit my style well. But on the rare occasion I do play a R/A I allow 4 rebuys, thats the initial buy-in, a top up, a rebuy and a top up, and one add on.
If I bust twice I am done, and save the 5th rebuy. I rarely bust out early in any case, and by then your stack could be too low to have a real presence at the table. So I value a $20 rebuy as a $100 freeze.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 13th, 2011 at 3:39:24 PM
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
I'm not just talking about online, I'm talking about any tournament. The logic is the same. Unfortunately as an American, I can no longer play poker online anyway, because my government is corrupt and unduly influenced by corporate interests.
There has to be a formula, but I'm sure it would require you knowing what the average chip stack is, compared to yours, along with how much money is in the prize pool, with respect to the rebuy amount.
I agree that it is a complicated decision, which is why I'm asking the question. I'm sure that in some poker book somewhere they have figured out the logic completely. I was surprised to not be able to find it in the Wizard of Odds's site or in this forum. It seems like it would be an extremely common question.
I am simply looking for a formula, however complicated, to determine whether a rebuy or addon decision is +EV or -EV. Skill level is a less significant factor than the mathematics involved when considering a rebuy, I believe.
I'm sure most of us who play in tournaments have been sitting there wondering whether or not it makes financial sense to rebuy when you still have a medium sized stack left, and I think the math should dictate the decision in most cases.
I'm not just talking about online, I'm talking about any tournament. The logic is the same. Unfortunately as an American, I can no longer play poker online anyway, because my government is corrupt and unduly influenced by corporate interests.
There has to be a formula, but I'm sure it would require you knowing what the average chip stack is, compared to yours, along with how much money is in the prize pool, with respect to the rebuy amount.
I agree that it is a complicated decision, which is why I'm asking the question. I'm sure that in some poker book somewhere they have figured out the logic completely. I was surprised to not be able to find it in the Wizard of Odds's site or in this forum. It seems like it would be an extremely common question.
I am simply looking for a formula, however complicated, to determine whether a rebuy or addon decision is +EV or -EV. Skill level is a less significant factor than the mathematics involved when considering a rebuy, I believe.
I'm sure most of us who play in tournaments have been sitting there wondering whether or not it makes financial sense to rebuy when you still have a medium sized stack left, and I think the math should dictate the decision in most cases.
