Strategy and Legality of Random Rewards Multi Hand Draw Poker

Mr. Wizard,

I recently went to Motor City Casino in Detroit and played a draw poker game called Random Rewards Multi Hand Draw Poker. If you are unfamiliar with it, there is an accurate simualtion on videopoker.com.

The game plays like standard draw poker for the first five coins bet. The sixth coin activates the random rewards feature, in which certain pays - usually from the flush up to the straight flush - become randomized and are different on each deal. The pays on any of the randomized winning hands can go from the base pay up to 500 coins more. So, a flush, for instance, could be worth as low as the 5-coin base pay (say $30 on a dollar-denomination machine) to 500 additional coins ($530 total on the dollar machine) or anywhere in between.

Two questions. First, I am not sure of the legality of the machine, since you do NOT know the sixth-coin payoff until AFTER the hand is dealt! I find it is akin to placing a bonus bet on a game, then having the house tell you after you make the bet what it will pay!! This bothers me a great deal. Any insight!!

Second, is there a time that, when the random reward is big enough, you would eschew all other hands to try to make the hand that has the big payout?

Looking forward to your answer - and thank you for all the wonderful work on all of your sites!

I really don't see that this bet is any different than any other gaming bet. When you put 5 coins in a video poker machine you have no idea what the resulting pay will be. It could be zero coins or a royal. It is a just a bonus side bet.

Actually, you do know what the pay will be. You don't know if you will end up with a winning hand, but you know what you will get if you do BEFORE you bet.

Video Poker machines are a form of slot machine and it the random reward is absolutely a way for a casino to build in additional advantage for the 6th coin played (by adjusting the random rewards "pay table". I don't think there's anything illegal about it as long as the machine's rules tells you that the payout will be random and that the randomness of the chip is enforced.

Just because it's video poker only means that the deck as dealt has to be a fair 52 card deck and that the payouts on the machine match. If the rules states that the payout on the 6th coin is random, then you play understanding that rule.

The more I thought about it the more I belive now that it is not illegal. It must be similar to slot games that feature second-screen bonus games, or machines like Wheel of Fortune - where you buy the right to spin the wheel with the final coin, and you do not know the outcome until you do spin. (even though the wheel is NOT random.)

Would really like to hear the Wizard's take on this!

Quote: ltlarry123

It must be similar to slot games that feature second-screen bonus games, or machines like Wheel of Fortune - where you buy the right to spin the wheel with the final coin, and you do not know the outcome until you do spin. (even though the wheel is NOT random.)

Larry,
I'm sure the wheel spin is random. It's certainly weighted to hit some sections more than others but it's still random.

Sorry for the tardy reply. I think this game is legitimate. As I recall, if you bet the sixth coin it randomly boosts some of the pays. This mechanism, I believe, is independent of the cards you get.

With such games, they always make it a good deal to make the extra bet, assuming optimal play. However, the odds should always be equal for a given pay table. I don’t think that game ever gets over 100%. I can’t address that on my site, because I don’t know how the “random reward” feature is programmed.

This is an interesting game after having played it over at Videopoker.com.

If you do decide to play the 6th coin, the pays in the Flush and higher category are enhanced randomly and you don't know the payout until you start to play.

So when you are picking up strategy you would need to adjust firstly to the higher pay tables on Flush or higher meaning that you likely might abandon holding a pair versus 4 to a flush (since a flush might pay anywhere from 7x to 20x depending on the random reward) because the reward of the flush is much higher. Similarly there will be decisions to abandon full houses for 4 of a kind depending on the pay tables.

I don't know how popular this game would be for VP diehards as it would be difficult to adjust basic "strategy" on the fly depending on the pay tables.

I don't see any legal problem with this.
Its simply the casino's attempt to get that sixth coin by offering the illusion of "something big" happening. A bonus. A freebie. Rather than offer a fixed and determinate enhancement in order to get that sixth coin they are offering a randomly-determined enhancement factor that is yet to be determined.

I'm sure it will be a good marketing ploy for them despite it annoying some players.

Thank you for all the replies.

Yes, it is an interesting game. I find I play much slower since I look at the payouts after each deal to see if any are increased significantly, then see if I have a viable hold for the "big reward." My head tells me that, if a random payout increases the win by +500, try to go for that if viable, otherwise, I just play standard optimal strategy.

By the way, I do not agree that the wheel spin on Wheel of Fortune is random. Remember how slots work. Once you hit the play button, the RNG stops and your win, if any, is determined then. The wheel spin is just a representation of that, not a random event. If your win for that play is 100 coins as determined by the RNG, you will get 100 coins somehow, whether in the base game or on the wheel. It isn't that way with Random Rewards VP. The reward is set AFTER you hit the deal button, the machine does not know what you will get at that time, since it does not know how you will ultimately play the hand.

Agree?

Quote: ltlarry123

Thank you for all the replies.

Yes, it is an interesting game. I find I play much slower since I look at the payouts after each deal to see if any are increased significantly, then see if I have a viable hold for the "big reward." My head tells me that, if a random payout increases the win by +500, try to go for that if viable, otherwise, I just play standard optimal strategy.

By the way, I do not agree that the wheel spin on Wheel of Fortune is random. Remember how slots work. Once you hit the play button, the RNG stops and your win, if any, is determined then. The wheel spin is just a representation of that, not a random event. If your win for that play is 100 coins as determined by the RNG, you will get 100 coins somehow, whether in the base game or on the wheel. It isn't that way with Random Rewards VP. The reward is set AFTER you hit the deal button, the machine does not know what you will get at that time, since it does not know how you will ultimately play the hand.

Agree?

The "wheel" in the wheel of fortune slot is definitely not random.

I don't think you can play at all the optimal strategy for Random Rewards because your pay tables are automatically biased because of the 6th coin. Think of our payout on a full pay JOB as 1-2-3-4-6-9. Because of the 6th coin, these payouts are now .833, 1.67, 2.33, 3, 5+rr, 7.33+rr. So you have to go for the flushes and full houses where possible.

For example, we all know on a full pay machine where the flush pays 6 we take 4 to a flush over a low pair. But if the flush is paying 12 now because of random rewards and we have a high pair, what do we do? I think that this would affect decision making the most.

I wonder if the straight flush decision making would be different as well, as well as the strategy of discarding the pair in a full house to go for a four of a kind in double bonus.

Quote:

The "wheel" in the wheel of fortune slot is definitely not random.

I'm still going to disagree. Everything I have read so far leads me to believe the wheel result is random. It is a secondary game. It has it's own paytable. The result of the game is determined by a random number generator not tied to the result of the original spin. The result of this game is not known until after the bonus spin button is pressed. I am not 100% certain but am pretty confident this is true.

The following excerpt is from the patent awarded to Anchor Gaming.
"According to one aspect of the present invention, when the reels display at least one of a plurality of predetermined winning indicia or indicia sets then the player is provided with an opportunity for a secondary payout. According to this illustrated embodiment of the present invention, a bonus actuator button is placed in an operative state when reels 10 display a bonus indicia set. A player must then depress bonus actuator button 50 in order to start bonus indicator spinning. In the illustrated embodiment, bonus indicator is in the form of a rotatable wheel. The wheel may be a carnival-type wheel comprising pegs and a clapper or could take one or more other forms, such as a fanciful wheel typically used in a roulette game as shown in the embodiment of FIG. 2. If a preferred motor driven wheel is utilized, it is preferably linked to some random value generator in order to randomly determine where the wheel will actually stop. In order to enhance the playing experience, sound effects corresponding to a clapper slapping against pegs of a carnival wheel are preferably provided as the wheel passes from one segment to another. The bonus indicator 70 is also preferably controlled so that the rate of spin is reduced, most preferably gradually reduced, prior to stopping in order to simulate a mechanical spinning wheel."

Quote: marksolberg

Quote:

The "wheel" in the wheel of fortune slot is definitely not random.

I'm still going to disagree. Everything I have read so far leads me to believe the wheel result is random. It is a secondary game. It has it's own paytable. The result of the game is determined by a random number generator not tied to the result of the original spin. The result of this game is not known until after the bonus spin button is pressed. I am not 100% certain but am pretty confident this is true.

The following excerpt is from the patent awarded to Anchor Gaming.
"According to one aspect of the present invention, when the reels display at least one of a plurality of predetermined winning indicia or indicia sets then the player is provided with an opportunity for a secondary payout. According to this illustrated embodiment of the present invention, a bonus actuator button is placed in an operative state when reels 10 display a bonus indicia set. A player must then depress bonus actuator button 50 in order to start bonus indicator spinning. In the illustrated embodiment, bonus indicator is in the form of a rotatable wheel. The wheel may be a carnival-type wheel comprising pegs and a clapper or could take one or more other forms, such as a fanciful wheel typically used in a roulette game as shown in the embodiment of FIG. 2. If a preferred motor driven wheel is utilized, it is preferably linked to some random value generator in order to randomly determine where the wheel will actually stop. In order to enhance the playing experience, sound effects corresponding to a clapper slapping against pegs of a carnival wheel are preferably provided as the wheel passes from one segment to another. The bonus indicator 70 is also preferably controlled so that the rate of spin is reduced, most preferably gradually reduced, prior to stopping in order to simulate a mechanical spinning wheel."

The result of the original spin is the spin of the wheel. The result of the spin is a function of a RNG. But just because there are 20 slots on the wheel doesn't mean that the RNG will pick each award 5% of the time. That's why I strongly believe this is not random. I have seen this game in action (my wife plays this all of the time) quite a bit and the frequency of lower pays is quite a bit higher than higher pays. Next time I am at my local casino I will observe the results of spins and present my results.

boymimbo,
I absolutely agree that all the sections of the wheel do not have the same possibility of hitting. It's what I was trying to convey when I said the wheel is weighted. While there are 22 physical stops on the wheel there are many more virtual stops (Telnaes patent). The top award may only have 1 or 2 virtual stops mapped to it where the lower pay wheel sections may have many times that many stops mapped to them. This same virtual mapping concept is true of all modern slot machines.

When the "spin" symbol is hit I am pretty sure it doesn't select a pay amount (although I agree it could). I think the timing of when you hit the bonus spin button determines what you win, much like in the primary game. In the end it is really irrelevant when the wheel pay gets determined since we have no way to influence it anyway.

I am not trying to be argumentative about this. I am only trying to provide as accurate of information as I can.

Quote: marksolberg

boymimbo,
I absolutely agree that all the sections of the wheel do not have the same possibility of hitting. It's what I was trying to convey when I said the wheel is weighted. While there are 22 physical stops on the wheel there are many more virtual stops (Telnaes patent). The top award may only have 1 or 2 virtual stops mapped to it where the lower pay wheel sections may have many times that many stops mapped to them. This same virtual mapping concept is true of all modern slot machines.

When the "spin" symbol is hit I am pretty sure it doesn't select a pay amount (although I agree it could). I think the timing of when you hit the bonus spin button determines what you win, much like in the primary game. In the end it is really irrelevant when the wheel pay gets determined since we have no way to influence it anyway.

I am not trying to be argumentative about this. I am only trying to provide as accurate of information as I can.

I think that when you say "random" and I say "random", we mean two different things. For example, on a craps table, the back wall ensures that your roll is random and we expect that a 7 will hit one in six times, a 6 or 8 5 out of 36 times, etc. When you said that the wheel is random, the implication (to me) is that the each slot on the wheel has an equal chance of winning, which is not the case. Absoultely, either when you start the initial spin or the bonus spin, the RNG knows that you are going to get the wheel symbol and the reward from the bonus spin. Yes, of course, a RNG is used to get the result, but the result on the wheel is skewed toward virtual stops.

The result of the wheel spinning is a random variable, but the r.v. is almost certainly not uniformly distributed. Random is not the same as uniform.

Quote: dwheatley

The result of the wheel spinning is a random variable, but the r.v. is almost certainly not uniformly distributed. Random is not the same as uniform.

Okay. I agree with that. I had just thought we assumed that all slot machines results were determined by a RNG, and that the wheel is no different. My thought as well concurs that the result of the bonus spin is not known until the bonus button is pressed. That's because the "wheel" symbol can also appear on 1 and 2 coin ins (it takes the third coin to activate the wheel).

Turning back to Random Rewards, I would think that, by law, the rewards payout would be determined independent of the cards that were dealt. I think that the machine would have to pick the reward first, then pick the cards to be drawn, and that these two acts were independent. If these acts were not dependent, then casinos could lower the rewards for hands with expected high values.

It probably works out to the casino's advantage overall for the 6th coin and perhaps the Random Rewards "6th coin" pay tables can be set to ensure that the casino makes money on the 6th coin that could lower or raise the house advantage / EV based on the normal pay table of the machine. Given that the random reward is a gimmick, I would think that the reward would make the house advantage higher on the game, but one never knows.