RNG and Reel Position?

Quote: VirtualBalboa

When you say, "hall's jackpot," are you referring to the casino's revenue?
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I dont understand your question.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: VirtualBalboa

When you say, "hall's jackpot," are you referring to the casino's revenue?
link to original post

I dont understand your question.
link to original post

Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.
link to original post

When there is one jackpot for the whole floor, for example,- the network of machines is connected by one jackpot.

I get bored even discussing this...

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.
link to original post

When there is one jackpot for the whole floor, for example,- the network of machines is connected by one jackpot.

I get bored even discussing this...
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I think this is just a case of different places using different terms for something. I would call that a casino wide jackpot. In many jurisdictions we also have what we call "wide-area progressives" that are connected to multiple casinos and even casinos in different states.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: Dobrij

But for example, in our casino we openly show this [jackpot odds] to all players. link to original post

Great, post a picture. Also what is "our casino"? Is it brick-and-mortar or online? And in what country? Maybe some countries mandate that jackpot odds must be disclosed, but certainly not in the U.S.
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Baseland casino. Communicating the terms and chances to gamblers is fair and profitable in terms of marketing.
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Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
link to original post

I don't see any reason why I should do this. Especially since we are on different continents. And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me? If you are interested, you can write me a PM.

If you don't have a constructive conversation, as I said, it's boring for me to answer such trivial questions.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
link to original post

I don't see any reason why I should do this. link to original post

Oh, I don't know, maybe to prove that you're not lying? You made a bold claim but refuse to post any evidence. You won't even say what *country* "your" casino is in.

Quote: Dobrij

And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me?

When you make a bizarre claim, without evidence, like that slot jackpot odds are supposedly public information, you can expect to be asked about it.

Please remember that not everybody speaks English as a first language.

Quote: Dieter

Please remember that not everybody speaks English as a first language.

覚えてみる。

I couldn't help but to think he was talking about the jackpot of the "Hall of the Fallen," or...

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
link to original post

I don't see any reason why I should do this. Especially since we are on different continents. And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me? If you are interested, you can write me a PM.

If you don't have a constructive conversation, as I said, it's boring for me to answer such trivial questions.
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Respectfully, you, Dobrij, entered the thread to ask questions about what we were talking about. You seem to have an interest in very specific questions related to the operation of slot machines. In asking these questions, what you are describing are things that do not sound familiar to a forum full of seasoned, well traveled gamblers and even game designers. I don't see how you can reasonably be upset about being asked "trivial questions" when trivial questions and vague responses are your contributions to this conversation.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Respectfully, you, Dobrij, entered the thread to ask questions about what we were talking about. You seem to have an interest in very specific questions related to the operation of slot machines. In asking these questions, what you are describing are things that do not sound familiar to a forum full of seasoned, well traveled gamblers and even game designers. I don't see how you can reasonably be upset about being asked "trivial questions" when trivial questions and vague responses are your contributions to this conversation.
link to original post

Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.

Quote: Dobrij

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed.

Quote: Dobrij

Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.
link to original post

I have been exceedingly cautious and that caution, I had hoped, opened up a different lane of dialogue and understanding about the questions you were posing. If your point of being in this thread is to complain that American casinos are inferior because they do not show an aggregate RTP of all the machines, some casinos do show an aggregate RTP depending on the gaming commission (Illinois comes to mind). I'm still not entirely sure I understand the "hall's jackpot" as American casinos do have wide area progressive slot machines which may link multiple units in a single casino or in many casinos across many states and you also seemed to describe these separately:

Quote: Dobrij

2. Jackpot of a connected group of slot machines?
3. Or local jackpot of the establishment where all the casino machines are connected?

In any case, we are all discussing "trivial" information, including you.

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.

Quote: Dobrij

Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.
link to original post

Specific RTP values are usually top secret. Ranges are more open. GGB's new game "reviews" include the RTP range for the game. Some makers publish ranges as well. Incredible Technologies, the people behind those golf games they used to have in bars, post the RTP range and the number of options for its current products on its website. And you can find slot manufacturer product catalogs online. Product catalogs are really public, but not exactly super hidden trade secret either.

incredible technology class iii something or other

same game theme as class ii


Oregon discloses the RTP for its lottery terminals. And a "Average Payout Rate", which is described--misleadingly, I would argue--as "Average payout rate refers to whether a game awards bigger prizes less frequently or smaller prizes more frequently, on average."

Companies are not really forthcoming about this info. I am finna make a public database of casino games and the informations about them. Nothing proprietary. Just enough to keep unethical people, like a certain uber-driving "slot enthusiast," from scamming dummies. Not many takers on the industry side.

Quote: DRich

It would be very unusual for a game to have the same strip on all three reels.
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A bunch of old games, like back in S+ and S2000 days, used the same reelstrip for all reels. Sometimes they are labeled "1,2,3" and sometimes they just have a single part number. Not much consistency in the world of gambling.

I do not know if Sizzling 7s copied Blazing 7s or the other way 'round, but Bally did not use same strips. Even Diamond Line uses different strips for 1 and 3 on the versions I have seen. The red and blazing 7s will be transposed or whatever.

Quote: itsmejeff

Specific RTP values are usually top secret.... link to original post

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
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I'll try and check a screen. I'm not going to read all the regs, but I can point a camera at a slot display, and I remember some Illinois flavoured uniqueness.

My recollection on IL is there's a placard stating the aggregate RTP of all machines on the floor that's placed at the cage or players club desk. Fuzzy on this but I feel like there's one at Grand Victoria that lists the entire casino RTP at 91.00%. Could be mixing it up with IN or MO.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

My recollection on IL is there's a placard stating the aggregate RTP of all machines on the floor that's placed at the cage or players club desk. Fuzzy on this but I feel like there's one at Grand Victoria that lists the entire casino RTP at 91.00%. Could be mixing it up with IN or MO.
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I know I've seen this in Iowa.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.
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Really? Well, if you can't stop discussing this, here's a print screen for you:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.
link to original post

Really? Well, if you can't stop discussing this, here's a print screen for you:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
link to original post

You have this weird, almost superhuman ability to miss what was actually said or to take it out of context, so much so that I have to wonder whether you're intentionally trolling. It's therefore pointless to explain, because you either won't understand the answer, or you'll pretend not to, but somehow I'm gonna try to explain again anyway.

(1) RTP is indeed secret from players. Only a handful of Vegas casinos disclose RTP of a few specific machines, andmost online casinos don't disclose machine-specific RTP. Allegedly there are some jurisdictions that require disclosure in brick-and-mortal locations, but no one has supplied any evidence that that's actually the case. In any event, these cases are the exception and not the rule. For the overwhelming majority of slots, RTP is secret and not disclosed. You seem to be the only one on the planet claiming otherwise.

(2) RTP and jackpot odds being secret from players. You made the ridiculous rebuttal that these can't be secret because games must go through regulators, brazenly missing the point. The point is, these are secret from the players. Duh.

(3) We were both discussing jackpot odds, and now you're claiming it's been about RTP. After one of my early posts (before you and I were even talking to each other) I mentioned RTP in addition to jackpot odds. After that, you and I discussed almost exclusively about jackpot odds. Then you suddenly switched and said it was about RTP: "one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret." You're the one flip-flopping, not me.

It was for that reason that I said, "Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds." You countered with a screenshot. I'll counter with one of my own:


To wit, in that post, I wrote about only jackpot odds being secret, and you replied only about jackpot odds, insisting that it's not a secret, and that I must be a conspiracy theorist for believing what everyone else on the planet besides you believes. And it's not just that post: every single post I made after that one, and that you replied to, was about jackpot odds and not RTP.

(4) You have provided zero evidence that any casino discloses jackpot odds, much less all of them. You said "your casino" discloses jackpot odds. But you haven't identified your relationship to the casino. The name of the casino you mentioned can't be found on the Internet. You haven't even answered what country this alleged casino is in. And finally, you have refused to post any pictures to prove your claim.

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.

Quote: Dieter

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.
link to original post

Thank you, Dieter. Of course it's neither RTP nor jackpot odds, it's hit frequency. Why would Illinois mandate disclosing such a trivial metric and not RTP or jackpot odds? Are players really keen to know the hit frequency? If so, they don't need the machine to tell them, they could play it for a few minutes and figure it out. Not so with RTP or jackpot odds.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: Dieter

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.
link to original post

Thank you, Dieter. Of course it's neither RTP nor jackpot odds, it's hit frequency. Why would Illinois mandate disclosing such a trivial metric and not RTP or jackpot odds? Are players really keen to know the hit frequency? If so, they don't need the machine to tell them, they could play it for a few minutes and figure it out. Not so with RTP or jackpot odds.
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That's a lot of speculation.

These pictures were of the third game I looked at. The first two either weren't disclosing, or weren't disclosing to me at the time I looked.
I was in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't stick around to poke at the other 4 machines, and I sure didn't go over to the slot parlour next to the dispensary to see what their offerings looked like.

I didn't see a sign on the wall (or door) stating RTP, either.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
link to original post

Iowa was one of the first that I saw that required RTP to be disclosed. That was many years ago, 1990's, so I have no idea if they still do. I think the first casino where I saw it was Prairies Meadows outside Des Moines

Quote: DRich

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
link to original post

Iowa was one of the first that I saw that required RTP to be disclosed. That was many years ago, 1990's, so I have no idea if they still do. I think the first casino where I saw it was Prairies Meadows outside Des Moines
link to original post

The last time I was at Prairie Meadows, they had a list of all the casinos in the state posted. They seemed to be boasting that their returns were a few hundredths of a percent higher than the competition.

Bumping this thread - forgot about this up until I was at Riverside Casino in Iowa last month and passing by the cage when I saw the framed item re: RTP for the floor. Next time I'm in Illinois I'll make sure to look there by the cage as well as I recall them doing something similar.

Man, that better be required by law, otherwise it's a crappy RTP to brag about.

In any event, a CASINO-WIDE RTP is a far, far cry from RTP for each individual machine, and of course it says nothing about jackpot odds.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Man, that better be required by law, otherwise it's a crappy RTP to brag about.

In any event, a CASINO-WIDE RTP is a far, far cry from RTP for each individual machine, and of course it says nothing about jackpot odds.
link to original post

I believe Iowa used to require the disclosure of RTP, but that was years ago so it may have changed.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Man, that better be required by law, otherwise it's a crappy RTP to brag about.

In any event, a CASINO-WIDE RTP is a far, far cry from RTP for each individual machine, and of course it says nothing about jackpot odds.
link to original post

Actually if that was a Caesars owned property, then it would be an absolutely phenomenally good RTP!

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Thank you, Dieter. Of course it's neither RTP nor jackpot odds, it's hit frequency. Why would Illinois mandate disclosing such a trivial metric and not RTP or jackpot odds? Are players really keen to know the hit frequency? If so, they don't need the machine to tell them, they could play it for a few minutes and figure it out. Not so with RTP or jackpot odds.
link to original post

I went ahead and looked this up - per "Technical Standards for Video Gaming Terminals in Illinois Version 1.5" dated June 2024, section 2.4.2 states "Odds of Winning. The odds of winning must be displayed on-screen to the player." I would guess this is a hold over from the lottery; most lottery games indicate the odds of possessing a winning ticket based on number combinations rather than RTP (given that RTP is impossible to completely discern without knowing how many individuals have the same numbers for that lottery game).

Interestingly, this same document also indicates that Illinois state law demands machines be able to go back at least 10 games. IIRC Nevada only demands 5. Gotta imagine most games then are set up for 10 as a default given that it is the more stout regulation.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Hey there - financial analyst guy who knows how to do a little math here and there. I've really gotten into comp hustling/APing slots and VP at casinos over the last couple of years and the resources I've found here and elsewhere have been invaluable to me. Having said that, because I can do math and complex formulas and such, I am interested in learning some more about the dynamics of the machines themselves in terms of how they operate and so on. I did some searches specific to this topic already on the forum but I don't know that the specific questions I had in mind were answered.

I understand how the RNG operates and how the function of it is likely written and used by the slot machine games at some level. The part where I am slightly unclear but think I get it is this - the RNG spits out a number, that number is used to populate a reel position, and depending on the number of reels, that's how many times the RNG gets asked to produce a number. Where I am less clear is how that leads to a display of reels on the screen. To use a specific example: if I play Phoenix 2x/3x free games which has three physical reels but many paylines, does the RNG determine the center reel (or top or bottom, I guess it is irrelevant) position and then if you win in a diagonal line, it's more or less a lucky accident?

Alternately, with a video slot, are the reels consistent during standard play (not during a bonus) when betting the same amount at the same denomination? I assume this is the case based on things I've read about how some of the calculations were done for games like Buffalo Link/Ascension that seems to suggest using analysis of slowed reel footage spliced together to determine what full reels resembled and thus how many potential winning combinations existed. If there are 20 reel positions in a 5x4 video slot and each of them was RNG determined independently, I can't imagine it would be easily possible to do the math on when that might go positive since I don't know how you'd know how many reel positions the RNG was working off of and how many were in a win condition.

Sorry if this seems exceptionally repetitive for questions here but I'm just trying to figure out things about how machines work before I invest time in thinking about how to calculate probabilities.
link to original post

I don't know too much but the code is something to consider:
There's an RNG tool here but for roulette, it might help understand it better
spam link removed -D


Understanding the Difference: Math.random() vs tRandomValues()


"""Math.random() is a JavaScript function that generates pseudo-random numbers between 0 and 1. While it works well for basic purposes, the randomness is determined by an internal formula, making it predictable under certain conditions.

Pseudo-Randomness: Numbers are generated using an algorithm, so they aren't truly random.
Speed: It is fast, making it suitable for casual games or simple tasks.
Security: Not suitable for applications needing high security, like cryptographic keys or secure gambling.
tRandomValues(), on the other hand, uses low-level system entropy to generate truly random numbers, which makes it far more secure.

True Randomness: Uses system-generated randomness, making it unpredictable and harder to manipulate.
Security: It is considered "cryptographically secure," meaning it's much safer and suitable for secure applications.
Use Cases: Ideal for secure random number generation, like passwords or cryptographic keys.
Summary: Math.random() is suitable for general applications, while tRandomValues() is for secure and unpredictable use cases.""""

Quote: RoulettePimp

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Hey there - financial analyst guy who knows how to do a little math here and there. I've really gotten into comp hustling/APing slots and VP at casinos over the last couple of years and the resources I've found here and elsewhere have been invaluable to me. Having said that, because I can do math and complex formulas and such, I am interested in learning some more about the dynamics of the machines themselves in terms of how they operate and so on. I did some searches specific to this topic already on the forum but I don't know that the specific questions I had in mind were answered.

I understand how the RNG operates and how the function of it is likely written and used by the slot machine games at some level. The part where I am slightly unclear but think I get it is this - the RNG spits out a number, that number is used to populate a reel position, and depending on the number of reels, that's how many times the RNG gets asked to produce a number. Where I am less clear is how that leads to a display of reels on the screen. To use a specific example: if I play Phoenix 2x/3x free games which has three physical reels but many paylines, does the RNG determine the center reel (or top or bottom, I guess it is irrelevant) position and then if you win in a diagonal line, it's more or less a lucky accident?

Alternately, with a video slot, are the reels consistent during standard play (not during a bonus) when betting the same amount at the same denomination? I assume this is the case based on things I've read about how some of the calculations were done for games like Buffalo Link/Ascension that seems to suggest using analysis of slowed reel footage spliced together to determine what full reels resembled and thus how many potential winning combinations existed. If there are 20 reel positions in a 5x4 video slot and each of them was RNG determined independently, I can't imagine it would be easily possible to do the math on when that might go positive since I don't know how you'd know how many reel positions the RNG was working off of and how many were in a win condition.

Sorry if this seems exceptionally repetitive for questions here but I'm just trying to figure out things about how machines work before I invest time in thinking about how to calculate probabilities.
link to original post

I don't know too much but the code is something to consider:
There's an RNG tool here but for roulette, it might help understand it better
spam link removed -D


Understanding the Difference: Math.random() vs tRandomValues()


"""Math.random() is a JavaScript function that generates pseudo-random numbers between 0 and 1. While it works well for basic purposes, the randomness is determined by an internal formula, making it predictable under certain conditions.

Pseudo-Randomness: Numbers are generated using an algorithm, so they aren't truly random.
Speed: It is fast, making it suitable for casual games or simple tasks.
Security: Not suitable for applications needing high security, like cryptographic keys or secure gambling.
tRandomValues(), on the other hand, uses low-level system entropy to generate truly random numbers, which makes it far more secure.

True Randomness: Uses system-generated randomness, making it unpredictable and harder to manipulate.
Security: It is considered "cryptographically secure," meaning it's much safer and suitable for secure applications.
Use Cases: Ideal for secure random number generation, like passwords or cryptographic keys.
Summary: Math.random() is suitable for general applications, while tRandomValues() is for secure and unpredictable use cases.""""
link to original post

You do notice they don’t tell about roulette around here because of crazies like yourself. These are game inventors. They understand that roulette is and will never be beaten by methods such as the ones you want to peddle. Be gone heathen!

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Man, that better be required by law, otherwise it's a crappy RTP to brag about.

In any event, a CASINO-WIDE RTP is a far, far cry from RTP for each individual machine, and of course it says nothing about jackpot odds.
link to original post

Actually if that was a Caesars owned property, then it would be an absolutely phenomenally good RTP!
link to original post

I thought Riverside was Affinity, not Caesars.

amendment: I looked it up, and I'm thinking of Lakeside. Riverside still isn't Caesars.

Last I checked, most properties in Iowa have roughly the same RTP on their signs, within a few tenths of a percent. As I understand, this is based on what people actually played and won, not what the theoretical is. If people would all insist on playing better games, the numbers would go up.
Most of the "high limit" areas in Iowa have been entirely empty of players most of the times I have walked through. Most of the players seemed to concentrate on the usual high-edge penny slots.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

I went ahead and looked this up - per "Technical Standards for Video Gaming Terminals in Illinois Version 1.5" dated June 2024, section 2.4.2 states "Odds of Winning. The odds of winning must be displayed on-screen to the player." link to original post

That's a great rule but does it actually apply and is it actually enforced? Has anyone seen the "odds of winning" listed on any machine? And again, "odds of winning" is *not* the same as RTP. The *minimum* information to convey for "odds of winning" would be something like: "Odds of winning any prize on one play on one line: 6.25% (1 in 16)"

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Man, that better be required by law, otherwise it's a crappy RTP to brag about.

In any event, a CASINO-WIDE RTP is a far, far cry from RTP for each individual machine, and of course it says nothing about jackpot odds.
link to original post

Actually if that was a Caesars owned property, then it would be an absolutely phenomenally good RTP!
link to original post

I thought Riverside was Affinity, not Caesars.

amendment: I looked it up, and I'm thinking of Lakeside. Riverside still isn't Caesars.

Last I checked, most properties in Iowa have roughly the same RTP on their signs, within a few tenths of a percent. As I understand, this is based on what people actually played and won, not what the theoretical is. If people would all insist on playing better games, the numbers would go up.
Most of the "high limit" areas in Iowa have been entirely empty of players most of the times I have walked through. Most of the players seemed to concentrate on the usual high-edge penny slots.
link to original post

Which always struck me as funny.

Why have slot paybacks decreased so much in recent decades?

Because that’s where the demand is. In low payback penny slots.

Back in the 1990s you would always see carousels of machines with signs like “Certified 98% Payback”

Today there is certainly not a penny machine in the country with payback that high, & likely not even any high denomination machines that high either.

Quote: Brickapotamus

...Why have slot paybacks decreased so much in recent decades?

Because that’s where the demand is. In low payback penny slots...

link to original post

It's due to a general dumbing down of society. Same reason some people think 6:5 is better than 3:2 BJ, and that a roulette wheel with not one, not two, but THREE zeros is something they should be playing.

It's also changes in the typical clientele of casinos. The old time high roller is dead. The kind of guy who wants to eat a steak at the table, drink real whiskey at the table, and a cigarette girl where you are allowed to touch her inner thigh. For him, gaming was his form of self-expression and he would accept losing, but not being played for a fool.

Now it's all kids and... how to put this gracefully... people with very different backgrounds and expectations than the visitors of the Rat Pack era who seem to be there for the experience, and losing is part of that experience. So they will bring $200 to lose on the floor and $1000 to blow in some nightclub afterward, and that's the current business model. Being they are there to lose and at least in Vegas the casinos are close together, they seem to be in a sort of arms race to make sure the money is lost as quickly as possible in their store rather than that one next door, as an alternative to providing better games to attract more and bigger players.

This carries over beyond the gaming, to the service and entertainment. Being grunted at in Foreign by someone who doesn't know or care what they are doing has become the new norm for service in many casino venues. And the entertainment- I remember, not all that long ago, when you could walk into any casino and there's a good chance there will be a band playing on a stage. Might be guys in matching suits and big afros, and they would be really good. Or it might be older guys in jacket and tie with a lot of brass, and they would be good too. No matter what else went on, you could enjoy that. Now where the hell did anyone get the idea that a DJ is entertainment? The only thing cheaper than a DJ is Muzak, and that's all they're doing, cheaping out. So here I am, a guest, and I'm supposed to sit there and listen to this clown squawk into a microphone, with some fake music full of language that I don't accept, and that's entertainment?

All these things sort of happened at once, and it could be coincidental but I suspect they have a common cause, and that is just generally lower standards. And that also has a cause, but I will stifle myself.

I have no idea what enforcement looks like for this in Illinois obviously - I would assume given the prevalence of slots in the state that most manufacturers with approved gaming devices simply have a setting that can turn on/off that feature and it is likely tied to a number in the par sheet regarding the variance of wins equal or greater than the bet. There's way too much labor involved with individual checks and having specialized gaming software for the Illinois market for me to imagine that occurs.

And yes, RTP and "odds of winning" are obviously very different things. No argument here.

Quote: Dieter

Last I checked, most properties in Iowa have roughly the same RTP on their signs, within a few tenths of a percent. As I understand, this is based on what people actually played and won, not what the theoretical is. If people would all insist on playing better games, the numbers would go up.
Most of the "high limit" areas in Iowa have been entirely empty of players most of the times I have walked through. Most of the players seemed to concentrate on the usual high-edge penny slots.
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The sign I posted claims that is the aggregate return for the prior 3 months (if you zoom in, you can see that). I wouldn't be at all surprised if that has been the "aggregate return" posted on their wall for the last 5 years.

The average person is never going to invest the time and energy into learning that Triple Stars pays better than Huff and Even More Puff and frankly, even if they knew with certainty that there was a 4-5-6% RTP difference at the same denom and bet rate, they wouldn't care. That's how casinos and gambling has been able to proliferate. And at this point, given that there is no "retvrn" to a prior state of electromechanical games and non-algorithmic play review, I just have to learn new plays and move on. Let the rubes sink their money into Buffalo Link and walk away with the meter in the 1600s.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: VirtualBalboa

I went ahead and looked this up - per "Technical Standards for Video Gaming Terminals in Illinois Version 1.5" dated June 2024, section 2.4.2 states "Odds of Winning. The odds of winning must be displayed on-screen to the player." link to original post

That's a great rule but does it actually apply and is it actually enforced? Has anyone seen the "odds of winning" listed on any machine? And again, "odds of winning" is *not* the same as RTP. The *minimum* information to convey for "odds of winning" would be something like: "Odds of winning any prize on one play on one line: 6.25% (1 in 16)"
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This is the sort of thing I usually see on Illinois games.
(Old picture; I can (maybe) be bribed to go do fresh research in a few days.)