RNG and Reel Position?

Quote: VirtualBalboa

When you say, "hall's jackpot," are you referring to the casino's revenue?
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I dont understand your question.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: VirtualBalboa

When you say, "hall's jackpot," are you referring to the casino's revenue?
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I dont understand your question.
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Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.
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When there is one jackpot for the whole floor, for example,- the network of machines is connected by one jackpot.

I get bored even discussing this...

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Can you describe what you mean by "hall's jackpot"? That's not a term I am familiar with.
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When there is one jackpot for the whole floor, for example,- the network of machines is connected by one jackpot.

I get bored even discussing this...
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I think this is just a case of different places using different terms for something. I would call that a casino wide jackpot. In many jurisdictions we also have what we call "wide-area progressives" that are connected to multiple casinos and even casinos in different states.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: Dobrij

But for example, in our casino we openly show this [jackpot odds] to all players. link to original post

Great, post a picture. Also what is "our casino"? Is it brick-and-mortar or online? And in what country? Maybe some countries mandate that jackpot odds must be disclosed, but certainly not in the U.S.
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Baseland casino. Communicating the terms and chances to gamblers is fair and profitable in terms of marketing.
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Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
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I don't see any reason why I should do this. Especially since we are on different continents. And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me? If you are interested, you can write me a PM.

If you don't have a constructive conversation, as I said, it's boring for me to answer such trivial questions.

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
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I don't see any reason why I should do this. link to original post

Oh, I don't know, maybe to prove that you're not lying? You made a bold claim but refuse to post any evidence. You won't even say what *country* "your" casino is in.

Quote: Dobrij

And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me?

When you make a bizarre claim, without evidence, like that slot jackpot odds are supposedly public information, you can expect to be asked about it.

Please remember that not everybody speaks English as a first language.

Quote: Dieter

Please remember that not everybody speaks English as a first language.

覚えてみる。

I couldn't help but to think he was talking about the jackpot of the "Hall of the Fallen," or...

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Great, can you post a picture of how you communicate jackpot odds to players? Like, if it's posted on the machine, a pic of the sign? You keep insisting that you communicate jackpot odds to players, and you keep not posting any evidence for that claim. You also dodged the question about what country "Baseland Casino" is in.
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I don't see any reason why I should do this. Especially since we are on different continents. And why did you decide to change the topic of this forum thread to questions for me? If you are interested, you can write me a PM.

If you don't have a constructive conversation, as I said, it's boring for me to answer such trivial questions.
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Respectfully, you, Dobrij, entered the thread to ask questions about what we were talking about. You seem to have an interest in very specific questions related to the operation of slot machines. In asking these questions, what you are describing are things that do not sound familiar to a forum full of seasoned, well traveled gamblers and even game designers. I don't see how you can reasonably be upset about being asked "trivial questions" when trivial questions and vague responses are your contributions to this conversation.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

Respectfully, you, Dobrij, entered the thread to ask questions about what we were talking about. You seem to have an interest in very specific questions related to the operation of slot machines. In asking these questions, what you are describing are things that do not sound familiar to a forum full of seasoned, well traveled gamblers and even game designers. I don't see how you can reasonably be upset about being asked "trivial questions" when trivial questions and vague responses are your contributions to this conversation.
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Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.

Quote: Dobrij

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed.

Quote: Dobrij

Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.
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I have been exceedingly cautious and that caution, I had hoped, opened up a different lane of dialogue and understanding about the questions you were posing. If your point of being in this thread is to complain that American casinos are inferior because they do not show an aggregate RTP of all the machines, some casinos do show an aggregate RTP depending on the gaming commission (Illinois comes to mind). I'm still not entirely sure I understand the "hall's jackpot" as American casinos do have wide area progressive slot machines which may link multiple units in a single casino or in many casinos across many states and you also seemed to describe these separately:

Quote: Dobrij

2. Jackpot of a connected group of slot machines?
3. Or local jackpot of the establishment where all the casino machines are connected?

In any case, we are all discussing "trivial" information, including you.

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.

Quote: Dobrij

Then read again carefully from what point I entered the conversation.

Specifically: one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret. And I said that it cannot be a secret because the machines undergo certification, and the RTP is not secret information. That's all.

And the fact that someone thinks something is illegal doesn't mean that it's illegal. And in general, when someone thinks something is illegal, it's from the realm of hallucinations.
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Specific RTP values are usually top secret. Ranges are more open. GGB's new game "reviews" include the RTP range for the game. Some makers publish ranges as well. Incredible Technologies, the people behind those golf games they used to have in bars, post the RTP range and the number of options for its current products on its website. And you can find slot manufacturer product catalogs online. Product catalogs are really public, but not exactly super hidden trade secret either.

incredible technology class iii something or other

same game theme as class ii


Oregon discloses the RTP for its lottery terminals. And a "Average Payout Rate", which is described--misleadingly, I would argue--as "Average payout rate refers to whether a game awards bigger prizes less frequently or smaller prizes more frequently, on average."

Companies are not really forthcoming about this info. I am finna make a public database of casino games and the informations about them. Nothing proprietary. Just enough to keep unethical people, like a certain uber-driving "slot enthusiast," from scamming dummies. Not many takers on the industry side.

Quote: DRich

It would be very unusual for a game to have the same strip on all three reels.
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A bunch of old games, like back in S+ and S2000 days, used the same reelstrip for all reels. Sometimes they are labeled "1,2,3" and sometimes they just have a single part number. Not much consistency in the world of gambling.

I do not know if Sizzling 7s copied Blazing 7s or the other way 'round, but Bally did not use same strips. Even Diamond Line uses different strips for 1 and 3 on the versions I have seen. The red and blazing 7s will be transposed or whatever.

Quote: itsmejeff

Specific RTP values are usually top secret.... link to original post

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
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I'll try and check a screen. I'm not going to read all the regs, but I can point a camera at a slot display, and I remember some Illinois flavoured uniqueness.

My recollection on IL is there's a placard stating the aggregate RTP of all machines on the floor that's placed at the cage or players club desk. Fuzzy on this but I feel like there's one at Grand Victoria that lists the entire casino RTP at 91.00%. Could be mixing it up with IN or MO.

Quote: VirtualBalboa

My recollection on IL is there's a placard stating the aggregate RTP of all machines on the floor that's placed at the cage or players club desk. Fuzzy on this but I feel like there's one at Grand Victoria that lists the entire casino RTP at 91.00%. Could be mixing it up with IN or MO.
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I know I've seen this in Iowa.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.
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Really? Well, if you can't stop discussing this, here's a print screen for you:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote: Dobrij

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Yet again, my original statement was that *jackpot odds* are secret from the player, I wasn't talking about RTP. Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds. You seem to be playing into his hands.
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Really? Well, if you can't stop discussing this, here's a print screen for you:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You have this weird, almost superhuman ability to miss what was actually said or to take it out of context, so much so that I have to wonder whether you're intentionally trolling. It's therefore pointless to explain, because you either won't understand the answer, or you'll pretend not to, but somehow I'm gonna try to explain again anyway.

(1) RTP is indeed secret from players. Only a handful of Vegas casinos disclose RTP of a few specific machines, andmost online casinos don't disclose machine-specific RTP. Allegedly there are some jurisdictions that require disclosure in brick-and-mortal locations, but no one has supplied any evidence that that's actually the case. In any event, these cases are the exception and not the rule. For the overwhelming majority of slots, RTP is secret and not disclosed. You seem to be the only one on the planet claiming otherwise.

(2) RTP and jackpot odds being secret from players. You made the ridiculous rebuttal that these can't be secret because games must go through regulators, brazenly missing the point. The point is, these are secret from the players. Duh.

(3) We were both discussing jackpot odds, and now you're claiming it's been about RTP. After one of my early posts (before you and I were even talking to each other) I mentioned RTP in addition to jackpot odds. After that, you and I discussed almost exclusively about jackpot odds. Then you suddenly switched and said it was about RTP: "one person was indignant that the manufacturers of the machines keep the RTP secret." You're the one flip-flopping, not me.

It was for that reason that I said, "Dobrij insists on reading my statement as though it were about RTP and not jackpot odds." You countered with a screenshot. I'll counter with one of my own:


To wit, in that post, I wrote about only jackpot odds being secret, and you replied only about jackpot odds, insisting that it's not a secret, and that I must be a conspiracy theorist for believing what everyone else on the planet besides you believes. And it's not just that post: every single post I made after that one, and that you replied to, was about jackpot odds and not RTP.

(4) You have provided zero evidence that any casino discloses jackpot odds, much less all of them. You said "your casino" discloses jackpot odds. But you haven't identified your relationship to the casino. The name of the casino you mentioned can't be found on the Internet. You haven't even answered what country this alleged casino is in. And finally, you have refused to post any pictures to prove your claim.

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.

Quote: Dieter

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.
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Thank you, Dieter. Of course it's neither RTP nor jackpot odds, it's hit frequency. Why would Illinois mandate disclosing such a trivial metric and not RTP or jackpot odds? Are players really keen to know the hit frequency? If so, they don't need the machine to tell them, they could play it for a few minutes and figure it out. Not so with RTP or jackpot odds.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: Dieter

From an Illinois slot machine.
I seem to remember similar information disclosures variously conspicuous on the main display or discreetly stated on an info page.

This is from a slot route parlour, not a "proper casino". I expect there may be some different rules for different categories.
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Thank you, Dieter. Of course it's neither RTP nor jackpot odds, it's hit frequency. Why would Illinois mandate disclosing such a trivial metric and not RTP or jackpot odds? Are players really keen to know the hit frequency? If so, they don't need the machine to tell them, they could play it for a few minutes and figure it out. Not so with RTP or jackpot odds.
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That's a lot of speculation.

These pictures were of the third game I looked at. The first two either weren't disclosing, or weren't disclosing to me at the time I looked.
I was in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't stick around to poke at the other 4 machines, and I sure didn't go over to the slot parlour next to the dispensary to see what their offerings looked like.

I didn't see a sign on the wall (or door) stating RTP, either.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
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Iowa was one of the first that I saw that required RTP to be disclosed. That was many years ago, 1990's, so I have no idea if they still do. I think the first casino where I saw it was Prairies Meadows outside Des Moines

Quote: DRich

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

There are jurisdictions in the U.S. that also require the RTP to be disclosed to players on slot machines. I do not recall any that require odds of outcomes to be disclosed. link to original post

Thank you for noticing that I stated that casinos and game makers don't disclose *jackpot odds*, while Dobrij insists that I'm saying RTP (even though even RTP is rarely disclosed to the player too). In any event, do you know of any specific jurisdictions where RTP must be disclosed to the player? VirtualBalboa mentioned Illinois, but I can't find any such requirement in the Illinois regulations, though I might have just missed it.
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Iowa was one of the first that I saw that required RTP to be disclosed. That was many years ago, 1990's, so I have no idea if they still do. I think the first casino where I saw it was Prairies Meadows outside Des Moines
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The last time I was at Prairie Meadows, they had a list of all the casinos in the state posted. They seemed to be boasting that their returns were a few hundredths of a percent higher than the competition.