Craps and Roulette Regulations
Nevada law has no effect on gambling in California. The California legislation predates the rise of Indian casinos.
According to him, California legislators felt that gambling being the evil it is, should be limited to only games involving a modicum of skill.
Throwing dice or spinning balls around a wheel are pure chance. All of the legal games therefore, require decisions by the player which will affect the final outcome(blackjack, Pai gow, etc).
I saw Pai Gow tiles in one casino but most have nothing but card games because they require decisions. Even Baccarat requires a choice of taking another card. Supposedly this denotes skill, even if luck plays a part in most cases.
As for real roulette wheels, I have not been to the Barona but a few casino's in CA have real wheels, HOWEVER, they are tied to some type of decision based on cards that are dealt. I know one wheel has a card dealt to the player and then the wheel is spun and if it lands in the quadrant that matches the cards color, then the card's number makes the decision of a winner or a loser. It's something ridiculous like that but is designed to skirt the regulations of CA.
If that were not funny enough, the casinos recognize most players do not have the financing to bank, so they contract rich independent companies to send in skilled players who bank against the player. The casino does collect a fee from them as well but the irony is the average player with small bankroll still has to "go up against" a player with an insurmountable one, just not the casino. All the while fighting a game with -ev and a fee for playing.
My suggestion after playing in CA for a small while, wait till you take a trip to Vegas. There is a reason why Vegas is not threatened by CA casinos.
Quote: darkozAll the games in CA. require decision making by the player. I think the indian reservation casino's may be exempt, not sure.
Precisely what decision do the current California methods allow that throwing the dice do not?
Quote: darkozCA legislators did not want the casino's with big bankrolls to "fight" against the little guy. So, casino's in california cannot bank.
That has nothing at all to do with rolling dice.
Quote: darkozAnother player must bank and the casino makes its money by charging a "fee" each hand for the right to play. This actually raises the vig on all games astronomically making it impossible to ever really get ahead(you pay for play so it's one dollar from you when win and one dollar from you when you lose on top of the actual amount you lost for the bet--yeesh.)
Again, that has nothing at all to do with rolling dice.
Quote: darkozThere is a reason why Vegas is not threatened by CA casinos.
There is a bigger reason why Vegas numbers have plummeted since their peak. And it is more than the general economic recession. A basic fact is that the decline coincides with the expansion of casinos in California, and every corporation with holdings in Las Vegas knows that all too well.
My narrative would describe the law as enacted when craps was still associated with black players in back alley games. Bans on dice fall under the category of racially motivated laws that have remained on the books by being rebranded on puritanical grounds.Quote: kenarmanIt was a specific law that was enacted early in the 20th century when craps was still played in back alleys.
As the Wizard stated in the above post, there is indeed this law, and the casino manager was right.
Dice, although thrown by the player share no outcome except luck. There are no skilled dice throwers(aside from those that would qualify as cheats) with the craps tables set up to eliminate any manipulation of a throw.
The california law was meant that the player needed to actually influence the outcome through the use of skill, that is using something that could be learned or acquired and that would give a player with intelligence a possible edge over a non-skilled player.
e.g. blackjack and basic strategy which some people can skillfully play, while others cannot. Pai Gow tiles which some players can choose to learn and make informed decisions on the combo's to choose.
Quote: sunrise089My narrative would describe the law as enacted when craps was still associated with black players in back alley games. Bans on dice fall under the category of racially motivated laws that have remained on the books by being rebranded on puritanical grounds.
I am not sure that it was racially motivated in Canada. The canadian law was partially left over English common law (over 600 years old) that was enacted by Richard III because he thought his archers were spending too much time playing dice.
Quote: darkozThe law about dice and roulette wheels being banned as pure luck games was told to me by a casino manager. I personally took him at his word.
That it is a state law is not in question. What is in question is why. And that remains for all intents and purposes to be answered.
Games of chance are not allowed for puritan purposes. Only games where the player must utilize skill, such as a basic strategy at BJ or how to arrange the tiles properly at Pai Gow.
The law may be out of touch with the times, but it is still official and enforced.
Here was my answer from above. Thought it was pretty clear:
"Dice, although thrown by the player share no outcome except luck. There are no skilled dice throwers(aside from those that would qualify as cheats) with the craps tables set up to eliminate any manipulation of a throw.
The california law was meant that the player needed to actually influence the outcome through the use of skill, that is using something that could be learned or acquired and that would give a player with intelligence a possible edge over a non-skilled player.
e.g. blackjack and basic strategy which some people can skillfully play, while others cannot. Pai Gow tiles which some players can choose to learn and make informed decisions on the combo's to choose. "
Quote: darkozGames of chance are not allowed for puritan purposes. Only games where the player must utilize skill, such as a basic strategy at BJ or how to arrange the tiles properly at Pai Gow.
Sorry, but it is preposterous to assert the craps and roulette as it is played today in California is a game skill.
Quote: darkozHere was my answer from above. Thought it was pretty clear:
"Dice, although thrown by the player share no outcome except luck. There are no skilled dice throwers(aside from those that would qualify as cheats) with the craps tables set up to eliminate any manipulation of a throw.
Now you seem to want to be saying that California craps today is a game of luck. Neither the State of California nor you can take both sides of the question.
Quote: darkozThe california law was meant that the player needed to actually influence the outcome through the use of skill, that is using something that could be learned or acquired and that would give a player with intelligence a possible edge over a non-skilled player.
Utterly illogical statement. The proof of which is that no one can declare that there is a difference in the odds, payoffs, etc., between California and Nevada craps.
Quote: darkoz
"Dice, although thrown by the player share no outcome except luck. There are no skilled dice throwers(aside from those that would qualify as cheats) with the craps tables set up to eliminate any manipulation of a throw.
The california law was meant that the player needed to actually influence the outcome through the use of skill, that is using something that could be learned or acquired and that would give a player with intelligence a possible edge over a non-skilled player.
e.g. blackjack and basic strategy which some people can skillfully play, while others cannot. Pai Gow tiles which some players can choose to learn and make informed decisions on the combo's to choose. "
I also think is this illogical as it can be. How can card craps and card based roulette be a game of skill?
Quote: darkozAll the games in CA. require decision making by the player. I think the indian reservation casino's may be exempt, not sure.
Even Baccarat requires a choice of taking another card. Supposedly this denotes skill, even if luck plays a part in most cases.
I always thought Baccarrat had rules and players had NO influence on when to take that extra card etc... Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
Quote: ahiromuThe reason has been clearly stated, stop trying to apply logic and efficiency to the bureaucratic process. Just, don't.
I'm not. I'm just thinking the reasons given are somewhat illogical. The reason can be acceptable but it seems like the explanations can't be. How can changing real craps and roulette to card based versions make it a skilled game???
The CA tribal compacts are all online, though. Perhaps someone wants to go look those up and report back?
Quote: SanchoPanzaSorry, but it is preposterous to assert the craps and roulette as it is played today in California is a game skill.
I looked at the 'roulette' thats played in Cal. Its moronic.
opened, or conducted, under California law.)"
A similar statement is made about roulette.
Here is the link I obtained this from: http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/Num2Craps.pdf
The purpose of the law was to introduce skill in all casino games. If the law is stupid or does not make sense, that is an issue with the state of california. Don't know what more you guys expect.
As for BJ being illegal in CA, that is completely erroneous. I have played blackjack in CA at a number of casinos and I am sure they are not violating penal law. The Hustler casino(if its still there, I haven't been in CA. since 2007) has blackjack and is obviously not a tribal casino. So does the Hollywood Park Casino.
Quote: darkoz"The Division does not consider California Craps to be the game of Craps because California Craps is a banked card game. (The game of Craps is a banked game played in which dice determine the outcome and for that reason is illegal to deal, carry on, open, cause to be
opened, or conducted, under California law.)"
The purpose of the law was to introduce skill in all casino games. If the law is stupid or does not make sense, that is an issue with the state of california. Don't know what more you guys expect.
That's what doesn't make sense. The law makes sense that they can't use dice, but YOUR EXPLANATION DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE! How does changing it to a card version introduce skill? Also, you still haven't explained how baccarrat is a game of skill because players don't decide on anything after they place their wagers.
Guess that gives a player a decision in the outcome. I suspect CA craps is similar???
Not the first time a law needs to be revised. Certainly, this law is not high on legislators plates so that is probably why it still stands.
But the original reason for the law was to keep some amount of skill in the game.
Quote: darkozAs for BJ being illegal in CA, that is completely erroneous. I have played blackjack in CA at a number of casinos and I am sure they are not violating penal law. The Hustler casino(if its still there, I haven't been in CA. since 2007) has blackjack and is obviously not a tribal casino. So does the Hollywood Park Casino.
When I lived in the Bay Area about 8 years ago, the cardrooms there only spread a no-bust version of blackjack. It was player-banked, and you didn't automatically lose if you exceeded 21. It wasn't really blackjack per se, and I think that's how they got away with it. Is that the game they have in SoCal, or is it actual blackjack? It's entirely possible the rules have changed since I lived there.
Quote: darkozI suspect that the laws were written with the idea that cards required mental decisions to be initiated by the player(e.g. to draw a card or not) and that the law itself is weakly written such that any card game with or without skills involved can be interpreted for inclusion.
Not the first time a law needs to be revised. Certainly, this law is not high on legislators plates so that is probably why it still stands.
But the original reason for the law was to keep some amount of skill in the game.
Yet, you still have not explained how Baccarrat is a game of skill as you originally as you originally claimed. By this, I mean that you stated something like the player gets to decide to hit or not like BJ which simply isn't true. Also, this thread is somewhat long to backtrack every statement you made, but you can be sure the pitboss is correct 100%? There is no evidence to support your claims about the game of skills, yes? I also disagree with what you say. This law is under a great deal of debate. If this law isn't taken seriously then why is there so much fight over trying to get real dice in CA? Which is why I believe that most of what you say shouldn't be taken seriously. I think this generates so much more revenue for gaming in CA. This is especially important since CA is in a budget crisis. Why wouldn't they want to get rid of that law? If I remember correctly, I've had a dealer in Vegas tell me the reason why they don't offer roulette in CA is because they want to protect the tourism industry of Nevada. Sorry darkoz, but I just can't take what you say seriously at all.
Quote: MathExtremistWhen I lived in the Bay Area about 8 years ago, the cardrooms there only spread a no-bust version of blackjack. It was player-banked, and you didn't automatically lose if you exceeded 21. It wasn't really blackjack per se, and I think that's how they got away with it. Is that the game they have in SoCal, or is it actual blackjack? It's entirely possible the rules have changed since I lived there.
I tried that no bust BJ many years ago in CA also. I think those are for those card clubs (places with no slots near residential areas unlike Indian casinos). I think they also charge like a buck for each bet you make. As I said before, I think those are for casinos that are too close to residential areas and that's probably why they have slightly different regulations.
Quote: avargovI don't know about CA, but I did play craps in an Oklahoma casino. The boxman had two sets of cards, A-6 with different colored backs. He shuffled them and placed then on a layout marked A-F. The shooter then called out a combination, such as B-D. Box flipped those two cards and you had your 'roll'. Pay or take away. I screetched with laughter when I first saw this, then I said....Hey!!! Just maybe you could....if you just....
Guess that gives a player a decision in the outcome. I suspect CA craps is similar???
CA craps varies by location. So what happens if the shuffler is slow and the players know which card is in which box?
Quote: darkozI suspect that the laws were written with the idea that cards required mental decisions to be initiated by the player(e.g. to draw a card or not) and that the law itself is weakly written such that any card game with or without skills involved can be interpreted for inclusion.
Not the first time a law needs to be revised. Certainly, this law is not high on legislators plates so that is probably why it still stands.
Do not agree. There is too much money involved and a lot of lawyers/tribes are fighting to get real dice. Nevada doesn't want CA to get it. So how can this not be on the top of a short list of priorities for casinos in CA? Old news - but still interesting - http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050625/news_1n25nodice.html
Quote: darkozI suspect that the laws were written with the idea that cards required mental decisions to be initiated by the player(e.g. to draw a card or not) and that the law itself is weakly written such that any card game with or without skills involved can be interpreted for inclusion.
Hmm.... so what about Harrah's in San Diego? Wizard of Odds site says this - A bingo hopper is used, containing 76 balls, two each of every ball numbered 1 to 36 plus 0 and 00. A ball is drawn which corresponds to the spin for betting purposes. No cards are used. I'm still doubting your whole theory about why no dice are allowed because skills is required.
I think there are two different things going on that are confusing a lot of people in this thread--Cardrooms and Indian Casinos.
The cardrooms all have the player-banked "skill" games (blackjack, pai gow, etc.) They don't offer any form of the "chance" games craps or roulette. they do offer baccarat, but there is a player choice that comes up occasionally whether to take another card or not and I'm guessing that's how they get around the laws. They do not offer this version of baccarat at the Indian Casinos.
So I guess the question is why can Indian Casinos offer games of chance (Baccarat) and skill (BJ), but not specifically roulette and craps. Is it a CA constitution thiing or a gaming compact thing? Does it state thery can offer games of chance as long as the ball or dice alone don't determine the outcome of the game? Aren't slot machines with an RNG games of chance too?
Quote: DealerInCAAnyone ever figure out the answer to this question?
I think there are two different things going on that are confusing a lot of people in this thread--Cardrooms and Indian Casinos.
The cardrooms all have the player-banked "skill" games (blackjack, pai gow, etc.) They don't offer any form of the "chance" games craps or roulette. they do offer baccarat, but there is a player choice that comes up occasionally whether to take another card or not and I'm guessing that's how they get around the laws. They do not offer this version of baccarat at the Indian Casinos.
So I guess the question is why can Indian Casinos offer games of chance (Baccarat) and skill (BJ), but not specifically roulette and craps. Is it a CA constitution thiing or a gaming compact thing? Does it state thery can offer games of chance as long as the ball or dice alone don't determine the outcome of the game? Aren't slot machines with an RNG games of chance too?
I can NOT find the exact law but this gets close to it for the messed up gambling laws in CA.
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/Num3Dice.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/f56c76a3-67e7-4471-88df-11ec3b6f8a93/1/hilite/
or
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/Num3Dice.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/8c3d533e-f397-43de-81a2-de76ccca648f/2/hilite/
Found at:
Bureau of Gambling Control website
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/
I think that when CA was making their rules of what could be and not in games at Indian casinos, Las Vegas casinos paid a bunch of money so craps and roulette could not be played in CA exactly as played in Nevada.
Therefore, you have Poker, Black Jack and Pai-gow which depend on player decisions as well as Baccarat, Card Craps and Card Roulette which do not.
FYI I am NOT referring to wheel bias, but rather to the skilled players that possessed the ability to predict where the ball would land based on the position of the spinning ball in relation to the spinning rotor.
Quote: 98stepsAs I understand it, the intention of California Law was to limnit the games to games of skill, where the players decide the outcome. However, the effect of the law was to limit gambling games to those that use cards only.
Therefore, you have Poker, Black Jack and Pai-gow which depend on player decisions as well as Baccarat, Card Craps and Card Roulette which do not.
yea thats been said a lot in here about the "skill", but i think that has to do only with the cardrooms, not the indian casinos. There must be something specifically banning the dice and ball from determining the outcome of the game in the Indian gaming compacts, and I wouldn't doubt it if NV had something to do with that. Even when you read all the interviews from the Indian casino managers, they always throw in the phrase: "does not determine the outcome."
Quote: DealerInCAyea thats been said a lot in here about the "skill", but i think that has to do only with the cardrooms, not the indian casinos. There must be something specifically banning the dice and ball from determining the outcome of the game in the Indian gaming compacts, and I wouldn't doubt it if NV had something to do with that. Even when you read all the interviews from the Indian casino managers, they always throw in the phrase: "does not determine the outcome."
State of California
March 7, 2000 Election
Proposition 1A
Gambling on Tribal Lands
A YES vote of this measure means:
Indian tribes could legally operate slot machines and banked and percentage card games (such as twenty-one) on Indian lands in California.
Since CA law prohibits Indian casino games that use devices, like roulette wheel, dice etc. they are allowed to have card games.
Card craps and roulette.
Bureau of Gambling Control website, what an awful site to try to locate information on!
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/
I am sure also that the law was "paid for" by the Las Vegas casinos. The Indian casinos today are more interested in MORE slot machines than having Vegas style craps and roulette.
Card Craps sucks.
A machine shuffles cards.
I guess it is as close to random as it gets.
I was at one casino in CA recently that uses 36 cards that show all the dice combos, you think that would be like dice...the 3-2 came out 4 times in a row followed right by the 5-4 came out 5 times in a row.
I figure the machine just shuffles the same way every time.
Machine Randomness sucks!
