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Ace2
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July 24th, 2022 at 10:31:57 AM permalink
I recently saw a video about a craps strategy called Ricochet: https://youtu.be/jng7VGo4rUE

You bet nothing until a point is established. Let's say an 8 is established...then you'd lay the 8 for $24, make a don't come bet for $15 and a Yo bet for $1. Then the only thing that can hurt you is the 8.

I'd like to see some of our craps experts, such as AlanM and tuttigym, opine on this strategy. Seems like it would work on a hot, cold or choppy table as there are five ways to win and only one way to lose. This strategy could be leveraged up by adding $25 on Big Red
Last edited by: Ace2 on Jul 24, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
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July 24th, 2022 at 11:01:48 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

I recently saw a video about a craps strategy called Ricochet: https://youtu.be/jng7VGo4rUE

You bet nothing until a point is established. Let's say an 8 is established...then you'd lay the 8 for $24, make a don't come bet for $15 and a Yo bet for $1. Then the only thing that can hurt you is the 8.

I'd like to see some of our craps experts, such as AlanM and tuttigym, opine on this strategy. Seems like it would work on a hot, cold or choppy table as there are five ways to win and only one way to lose. This strategy could be leveraged up by adding $25 on Big Red
link to original post



Theres plenty that can hurt you.

On every roll that isnt a yo you lose $1.

The DC bet opens the door to any number being rolled and then rolled again for a $15 loss.

A lay on the 8 for $24 could lose as well being one of the "easier" numbers to hit.

Repeating these bets would kill you if you have a hot shooter.

And adding a $25 big red -- a one roll bet -- opens the door to losing $25:on every roll.

Again I have to ask, have you ever played craps?
Ace2
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July 24th, 2022 at 11:11:08 AM permalink
Yes, I’ve played a lot, but I’ve never dabbled in the exotic bets and strategies. Just a novice relative to you. Ricochet seems to have insurance for almost every scenario
Last edited by: Ace2 on Jul 24, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
MrV
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July 24th, 2022 at 12:26:42 PM permalink
The "ricochet" was one of many plays laid out by John Patrick; he had a fondness for hedging and felt math was more hindrance than help.
"What, me worry?"
Ace2
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July 24th, 2022 at 12:31:00 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

he had a fondness for hedging and felt math was more hindrance than help.
link to original post

Spoken like a veteran
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Ace2
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July 24th, 2022 at 4:03:19 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


The DC bet opens the door to any number being rolled and then rolled again for a $15 loss.

Is that a negative? DC bets are positive EV after they travel to a point. With a point of 4/10, don’t bets have a huge 33.3 % advantage over the house

I was watching another craps video, made by a dealer, and he said one the worst plays he often sees is when people take down their don’t bet once a 6 or 8 is established. Unbelievable, removing a bet with a 9.1 % advantage! Apparently they’d rather not take the risk against a 6/8
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AlanMendelson
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July 24th, 2022 at 5:59:07 PM permalink
Duplicare
AlanMendelson
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July 24th, 2022 at 6:02:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

DC bets are positive EV after they travel to a point.
link to original post



And what advantage do you have before your DC bet travels?

You really need to play craps and stop just reading books.

You have a lopsided view of what actually happens.
Ace2
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July 24th, 2022 at 6:19:37 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


And what advantage do you have before your DC bet travels?

You really need to play craps and stop just reading books.

You have a lopsided view of what actually happens.
link to original post

I did not invent the Ricochet strategy. As previously posted, you can watch the full video here:

https://youtu.be/jng7VGo4rUE

I believe the advantage to the DC bet is you have the 2, 2 and 12 “”hedged”” since you win or push with them. So you’re “”fully insured”” if those numbers come up. This is an advanced strategy, hopefully I used the right terminology this time. Watch the comprehensive video for a full explanation
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AlanMendelson
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July 24th, 2022 at 6:26:09 PM permalink
So called insurance only opens you to the edge of the additional bet you make.

You really need to play.
MrV
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July 24th, 2022 at 7:07:29 PM permalink
link to discussion elsewhere about Patrick's hedge plays...

http://www.crapsforum.com/threads/the-patrick-system.1473/
"What, me worry?"
speedycrap
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July 25th, 2022 at 1:46:20 AM permalink
That is like ACTION every roll. You will be killed in no time. Case closed.
odiousgambit
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July 25th, 2022 at 4:22:17 AM permalink
I think Ace2 is pulling our leg when he comes up with this stuff, sometimes for sure, other times like now I'm not sure

your average gambler looks for things like this, I ran into a guy who figured out, with all kinds of bets going, that the only thing that could hurt him was a 4 rolled the easy way. But he was figuring it without using probability, just looking at "if this happens, I win x, if that happens, I win y". He looked very disappointed when his bankroll dried up.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AlanMendelson
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July 25th, 2022 at 4:41:05 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I think Ace2 is pulling our leg when he comes up with this stuff, sometimes for sure, other times like now I'm not sure

your average gambler looks for things like this, I ran into a guy who figured out, with all kinds of bets going, that the only thing that could hurt him was a 4 rolled the easy way. But he was figuring it without using probability, just looking at "if this happens, I win x, if that happens, I win y". He looked very disappointed when his bankroll dried up.
link to original post



When he's wrong it was a joke.
odiousgambit
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July 25th, 2022 at 7:27:20 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

I recently saw a video about a craps strategy called Ricochet:  https://youtu.be/jng7VGo4rUE


You bet nothing until a point is established.  Let's say an 8 is established...then you'd lay the 8 for $24, make a don't come bet for $15 and a Yo bet for $1.  Then the only thing that can hurt you is the 8.


I'd like to see some of our craps experts, such as AlanM and tuttigym, opine on this strategy.  Seems like it would work on a hot, cold or choppy table as there are five ways to win and only one way to lose.  This strategy could be leveraged up by adding $25 on Big Red
link to original post

Those last remarks I have to believe, with Ace2's math background, are sly baiting attempts. He too has noticed Regular Joe Gambler's propensity for evaluating bet combinations without using probability. 


If, however, some take this seriously, the simple way to evaluate bet combinations is to add up the EV for each bet, and you can just look that up leaving you only the math of arithmetic. Bottom line: the overall EV is the sum of the EV of each bet. This will take care of probability. Since a player is likely to keep putting resolved bets back up, we can use the HE per roll of the dice


for the above, the first bet's house EV is 0.69% times $24 for each roll =  $0.1656
btw that's under the most favorable rules, commission only on wins


the next bet's EV is $15 times 0.42% = $0.063 this is per roll remember


the $1 Yo bet, a one roll bet for sure, will be 5.56%*$1 = $0.0556


The sum of all three EVs is $0.2842.  So the house will take a little over a quarter from you each roll of the dice on average. 


If you add 'any 7' you just add the EV  of that bet as well. 16.67% HE. I leave that as an exercise for those interested. 

The only math I just did was multiplying the amount of the bet times the edge and adding it all together. 4th grade. I did need the link or I would have had to calculate the HE.


https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AlanMendelson
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July 25th, 2022 at 9:11:28 AM permalink
In previous posts he's asked if turning on box number bets was poor etiquette (it has nothing to do with etiquette), and he said he thought the Big 6 and Big 8 bets were called Big Red (they aren't) and he even said Big Red was outlawed.

He has also posted dice combinations with the wrong payoffs.

Now I don't know when he's joking and when he doesn't know.
Ace2
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July 25th, 2022 at 2:37:24 PM permalink
Here’s another interesting strategy involving hardways, 12s, 2s, come bets, hop bets and pressing. Hopefully I used the right lingo this time…this stuff is way over my head

https://youtu.be/trlBEjRD4F4
It’s all about making that GTA
UP84
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July 25th, 2022 at 6:48:52 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Yes, I’ve played a lot, but I’ve never dabbled in the exotic bets and strategies. Just a novice relative to you. Ricochet seems to have insurance for almost every scenario
link to original post

Yeah, although I think in Australia this play is known as the Boomerang.
Ace2
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July 26th, 2022 at 8:17:00 PM permalink
Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
Last edited by: Ace2 on Jul 26, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
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July 26th, 2022 at 8:57:19 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
link to original post



What has this got to do with etiquette?
unJon
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July 27th, 2022 at 4:56:34 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
link to original post



What has this got to do with etiquette?
link to original post



This is like Who’s on First but not very funny.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
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July 27th, 2022 at 5:14:48 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
link to original post



What has this got to do with etiquette?
link to original post



This is like Who’s on First but not very funny.
link to original post



The question was are these bets bad etiquette. I don't know what these bets have to do with etiquette.

You can review the original post if you like.

Do you have the answer?
Ace2
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July 27th, 2022 at 5:58:26 PM permalink
I went to my local casino today, leaving with a modest profit. A few observations:

Most of the dealers at this reservation casino wouldn’t cut it at a Vegas craps table. For instance, I reminded one dealer twice to move the puck to the point number. There was another newbie dealer that was basically doing on-the-job training; the boxman had to instruct/correct her on almost every payout. I was not in any hurry and was cool about it, unlike some superstitious jerks. You know the type…the ones that yell “same dice!”

Today the dealers made two errors in my favor. Once they did not collect my come bet when a 2 was rolled, and once they did not collect my (flat) bet on the nine when a seven was rolled during comeout. These might have just been mistakes or might have been due to my moderate tipping. They definitely notice tips…I generally bet PL for them next to mine, usually when I’m shooting

I was shooting well today for a change . I think I hit at least two points on every turn. I probably shot four or five times…starting to get the hang of this DI stuff
Last edited by: Ace2 on Jul 27, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
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July 27th, 2022 at 7:08:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2



I was shooting well today for a change . I think I hit at least two points on every turn. I probably shot four or five times…starting to get the hang of this DI stuff
link to original post



I look forward to hearing more about your DI success.
Ace2
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July 27th, 2022 at 8:24:04 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2



I was shooting well today for a change . I think I hit at least two points on every turn. I probably shot four or five times…starting to get the hang of this DI stuff
link to original post



I look forward to hearing more about your DI success.
link to original post

I wasn’t ejected from the casino, but they were eyeing me toward the end
Last edited by: Ace2 on Jul 27, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
odiousgambit
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July 28th, 2022 at 2:28:53 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

I went to my local casino today, leaving with a modest profit.

3 point molly?

Quote:

A few observations:

Most of the dealers at this reservation casino wouldn’t cut it at a Vegas craps table. For instance, I reminded one dealer twice to move the puck to the point number. There was another newbie dealer that was basically doing on-the-job training; the boxman had to instruct/correct her on almost every payout. I was not in any hurry and was cool about it, unlike some superstitious jerks. You know the type…the ones that yell “same dice!”

Today the dealers made two errors in my favor. Once they did not collect my come bet when a 2 was rolled, and once they did not collect my (flat) bet on the nine when a seven was rolled during comeout. These might have just been mistakes or might have been due to my moderate tipping. They definitely notice tips…I generally bet PL for them next to mine, usually when I’m shooting

If the help was due to your tipping, they won't be there long. Also, it sounds good but you don't want it to look like a payoff instead of just a tip ... if you're making large bets surveillance might be on it fast

Quote:

I was shooting well today for a change . I think I hit at least two points on every turn. I probably shot four or five times…starting to get the hang of this DI stuff
link to original post

I doubt if you are serious, but for sure it's very satisfying to roll well even when you know it's just luck
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AlanMendelson
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July 28th, 2022 at 3:40:02 AM permalink
Of course Ace is serious about his DI success. He mentioned it TWICE!!

Quote: Ace2

I was shooting well today for a change . I think I hit at least two points on every turn. I probably shot four or five times…starting to get the hang of this DI stuff
link to original post



Quote: Ace2

I wasn’t ejected from the casino, but they were eyeing me toward the end
link to original post

unJon
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July 28th, 2022 at 5:44:15 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
link to original post



What has this got to do with etiquette?
link to original post



This is like Who’s on First but not very funny.
link to original post



The question was are these bets bad etiquette. I don't know what these bets have to do with etiquette.

You can review the original post if you like.

Do you have the answer?
link to original post



Yes. The answer was in my last post. You are playing the role of Bud Abbott in this thread. Do you get it? Abbott didn’t seem to, but that’s what made the routine go.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
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July 28th, 2022 at 5:49:34 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Would buying all numbers for $224 ($39 on 4/10, $38 on 5/9, $35 on 6/8) be bad etiquette?

Lots of weird amounts IMO. Commission on win only.

It would be $380 for crapless (add $39 on 2/12 and 3/11). Winning action on every roll except Big 7.
link to original post



What has this got to do with etiquette?
link to original post



This is like Who’s on First but not very funny.
link to original post



The question was are these bets bad etiquette. I don't know what these bets have to do with etiquette.

You can review the original post if you like.

Do you have the answer?
link to original post



Yes. The answer was in my last post. You are playing the role of Bud Abbott in this thread. Do you get it? Abbott didn’t seem to, but that’s what made the routine go.
link to original post



Sorry. I take things seriously. I dont see any joke here. Etiquette has a definition.

I now have learned that Ace is a Di and the casinos are watching him.

By the way, who else is joking on this forum?

Perhaps Wizard needs a new category here: TALL TALES AND BAD JOKES.
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