tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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November 24th, 2015 at 11:37:24 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That'd be a very interesting test case. Here's what NRS says:


I haven't reviewed the legislative history, but my understanding of the context is that this is meant to make illegal devices for wheel-clocking and card counting. You're allowed to use your brain to clock a roulette wheel or count down a blackjack shoe, but you can't use a computer to do it. But I don't think the intent of that law was to cover an electronically-stored strategy card and that's basically what a VP hand analyzer is. (I don't think the law would distinguish between a VP hand analyzer that simply used a big lookup table vs. one that ran a real-time analysis.)

Anyone know if someone using a VP hand analyzer has ever been charged under this statute? Or alternately, whether someone using a VP hand analyzer was detained but *not* charged?



To my knowledge no one has been charged or detained for looking up vp hands on their phone so far, even though that's technically illegal. It would rarely be worth prosecution.

Add for the vibrating app timer he's suggesting for slots. That would be legal since it doesn't give you an advantage on the game.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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November 24th, 2015 at 11:52:52 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

To my knowledge no one has been charged or detained for looking up vp hands on their phone so far, even though that's technically illegal. It would rarely be worth prosecution.

I'm not so sure. The device has to let you "obtain an advantage." Is looking up the right play in VP the same as "obtaining an advantage"? The case would center on the statutory construction of that phrase, I think, and I'd bet the legislative history doesn't support a broad catch-all definition like "receiving anything beneficial to the player."

Here's a more obvious testcase. Someone take a picture of a blackjack basic strategy card and put it on your phone, then put that phone on the table while you're playing. Is referring to that while playing "obtaining an advantage"? I don't think so.

Step 2: write an app that optically scans the two cards you have, allows you to tap the rank of the dealer's upcard, and tells you the basic strategy play. That's an exact analog for the basic strategy card photo, it just does the lookup for you in software. Is that "obtaining an advantage?" No more so than using the card.

In fact, there are lots of basic strategy apps on the app stores. None of those have been specifically called out by the NGCB. However, a secretive card-counting app *was* called out:
http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=5343

That's not dispositive, but it's a strong indicator of how the GCB is viewing things.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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November 24th, 2015 at 12:48:55 PM permalink
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
jopke
jopke
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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November 24th, 2015 at 1:28:57 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I agree, but the point is you have nothing to worry about from a legality standpoint. Nobody's going to arrest anyone for using a responsible-gaming app. Not only does it not violate any regs I know of, the negative press would be terrible. I haven't checked the app stores but I'd be surprised if something like this weren't out there already.



Agreed. I think this is an app with good intentions. Dunno if it would have any real impact, but I can't see any chance of a casino trying to stop its use.
Kentry
Kentry
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November 24th, 2015 at 3:43:34 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead



Giggles. :D
TomG
TomG
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November 24th, 2015 at 8:30:33 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Supposedly even if you use your phone to look up a video poker hand it's illegal.



It is illegal to use any device to gain an advantage. If I look up strategy I am not gaining an advantage, I am merely achieving the predetermined return.

We could even argue that the casino apps gives you an advantage because you get $5 for downloading it, so it must be illegal to have on your phone in any casino.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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November 24th, 2015 at 8:40:19 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

It is illegal to use any device to gain an advantage. If I look up strategy I am not gaining an advantage, I am merely achieving the predetermined return.

We could even argue that the casino apps gives you an advantage because you get $5 for downloading it, so it must be illegal to have on your phone in any casino.



Seems like a good argument for a court of law, but chances are the casino will already have banned you. My opinion only.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
raiden
raiden
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November 24th, 2015 at 9:15:47 PM permalink
Quote:

We could even argue that the casino apps gives you an advantage because you get $5 for downloading it, so it must be illegal to have on your phone in any casino.



I'm not sure what casino apps your referring to, but for strategy apps, slot game apps or even casino utility type apps, I just don't see how this is possible unless the app alters the machine or game in its current state. For example, last year in a local casino, my buddy and I saw a suspicious couple on a Wheel of Fortune progressive slot machine. The lady sorta hid behind the man, and pulled something out of her purse, and from what I could tell stuck it on the front panel of the machine, and turned it on. It made this zap noise, so I'm guessing they were literally tazing the machine. You should have seen the how fast the casino security got their, like 5 seconds after the noise was made from it. As far as I could tell, they weren't arrested, but escorted out the door immediately, and rightfully so.

It's just my opinion, but my phone is my property, as well as the apps that are on it. Just like the slot machines and everything else in the casino belongs to them. I have no right tampering with the machines or games, as the same goes for them with my property. But... it is their casino, and they can, I guess if they suspect foul play in any form, choose to ask that person to leave the property immediately.

I still however believe technology can be used in ways to help with addiction, and I also believe if done responsibly with the consent of the casino, can ultimately be a win, win.

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