When I thought about how much the 58% vs. 59% the difference is 1/60 of the pay table return for ugly deuces (98.91% vs. the pay table for dream card ugly deuces (99.91). The difference being 1% divided by 60 or 0.0167%. This reduces the return on the Dream card game to 99.89%. This small reduction is not worth worrying about. Do you agree with my math?

(I rounded off 58/59 to 60 and dropped extra digits in the calculations)

Quote:Rcparker99Admin JB, thank you for your reply. The pay table is the one for ugly deuces (1,2,3,4,4,9,15,25,200,800).

When I thought about how much the 58% vs. 59% the difference is 1/60 of the pay table return for ugly deuces (98.91% vs. the pay table for dream card ugly deuces (99.91). The difference being 1% divided by 60 or 0.0167%. This reduces the return on the Dream card game to 99.89%. This small reduction is not worth worrying about. Do you agree with my math?

(I rounded off 58/59 to 60 and dropped extra digits in the calculations)

No.

Think of it this way (also this may not be mathematically correct either, but I think it is a lot closer). If zero dream cards were awarded but you paid 10 credits per hand, then the return would be 98.91%/2 = 49.455%. This is the return without the Dream Card For 59% dream card probability it yields, 99.91%.

So the return in the "dream card" phase, represented by X, is roughly: (0.41)*(0.49455) + (0.59)*X = 0.9991

0.59X = 0.9991 - (0.41)*(0.49455)

0.59X = 0.7942845

X = 1.346244915

Now lowering the probability of a dream card from 59% to 58% then the return would become...

(0.42)*0.9891/2 + (0.58)*1.346244915 = 0.9885 = 98.85%...Lower than base paytable, hence why the Dream Card probability is usually 59%!!!

If you have a photo of this rule screen change that would be much appreciated. This is a significant difference.

0.9991 is the overall return

0.9891/2 = 0.49455 is the pure non-feature return

0.49455 x 0.41 = 0.202766 is the weighted non-feature return

0.9991 - 0.202766 = 0.796335 is the weighted feature return

0.796335 / 0.59 = 1.349719 is the pure feature return

Adjusting the weights we get:

0.49455 x 0.42 = 0.207711 is the new weighted non-feature return

1.349719 x 0.58 = 0.782837 is the new weighted feature return

0.207711 + 0.782837 = 0.990548 is the new overall return

This is only an estimate because of the precision used in the beginning (0.9991 and 0.9891).

I analyzed the game with a 58% feature trigger probability, and the actual return is 99.0575%.

Trivia question. I'll give an internet cookie* if you can answer this correctly: Why is it common to refer to that paytable as airport deuces?

Quote:RSWTF is ugly deuces? Are you talking about the 15-9-4-4 paytable, AKA: Airport Deuces?

Trivia question. I'll give an internet cookie* if you can answer this correctly: Why is it common to refer to that paytable as airport deuces?* Internet cookies are 100% worthless.**** Well, the internet cookies I'm talking about are worthless. AKA: Not cookies that are stored on your computer.

Its kinda sad if I'm right: the deuces pay table was considered so horrible at one point it was only offered at the airport, land of the shitty pay backs on slots and VP.

This site doesn't host pictures, but it's easy to put them up.

Go to a photo site (I use tinypic.com because it's very simple, but you might be using something else in your life) and upload through them.

Copy the last link they provide of the 4 boxed addresses.

Come here and, in your reply, inside brackets "[]" type IMG=the address you copied from tinypic

That's all you have to do.

GAME DESCRIPTION | 5-coin Payback | 10-coin Payback | DreamCard Frequency |
---|---|---|---|

JACKS OR BETTER - 9/6 | 99.54% | 99.56% | 50.50% |

JACKS OR BETTER - 8/6 | 98.39% | 98.40% | 50.50% |

JACKS OR BETTER - 8/5 | 97.70% | 97.73% | 50.50% |

JACKS OR BETTER - 7/5 | 96.15% | 96.57% | 50.50% |

BONUS POKER - 8/5 | 99.17% | 99.27% | 46.70% |

BONUS POKER - 7/5 | 98.02% | 98.15% | 46.70% |

BONUS POKER - 6/5 | 96.87% | 97.04% | 46.70% |

DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/7/5 | 99.11% | 99.17% | 33.70% |

DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/6/5 | 97.81% | 98.44% | 33.70% |

DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/6/4 | 96.38% | 97.25% | 33.70% |

DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/5 | 95.27% | 96.61% | 33.70% |

DOUBLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/6/4 | 98.98% | 99.04% | 31.00% |

DOUBLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/5 | 97.87% | 98.41% | 31.00% |

DOUBLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 8/5 | 96.79% | 97.52% | 31.00% |

DOUBLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 7/5 | 95.71% | 96.66% | 31.00% |

DEUCES WILD - 25/15/9/4/4/3 | 98.91% | 99.91% | 59.00% |

DEUCES WILD - 20/12/10/4/4/3 | 97.58% | 98.10% | 59.00% |

DEUCES WILD - 20/11/9/4/4/3 | 96.75% | 97.04% | 59.00% |

DEUCES WILD - 20/10/8/4/4/3 | 95.96% | 96.02% | 59.00% |

BONUS POKER DELUXE - 9/6 | 99.64% | 99.67% | 31.30% |

BONUS POKER DELUXE - 9/5 | 98.49% | 99.05% | 31.30% |

BONUS POKER DELUXE - 8/5 | 97.40% | 98.11% | 31.30% |

BONUS POKER DELUXE - 7/5 | 96.25% | 97.17% | 31.30% |

TRIPLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 9/6 | 98.15% | 98.21% | 26.70% |

TRIPLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 8/6 | 97.11% | 97.44% | 26.70% |

TRIPLE DOUBLE BONUS POKER - 7/5 | 94.92% | 96.01% | 26.70% |

TRIPLE BONUS POKER - 10/7 | 98.52% | 98.54% | 27.00% |

TRIPLE BONUS POKER - 9/7 | 97.45% | 97.71% | 27.00% |

TRIPLE BONUS POKER - 9/6 | 95.88% | 96.85% | 27.00% |

TRIPLE BONUS POKER - 9/5 | 94.53% | 96.08% | 27.00% |

I've found that IGT is almost never in error in their math. However, sometimes they give me outdated rules.

My next trip to a casino I'll look for Dream Card and check the probabilities myself. However, if anyone can post screenshots, by all means, do.

I'm planning to go downtown this evening and will look for the game to confirm what the probabilities are, especially in deuces wild.

Bonus Poker: 46%

Deuces wild: 58%

Double bonus: 33%

Double Double bonus: 30%

Jacks or Better: 50%

Triple Double Bonus: 26%

I think some of these probabilities are rounded down, lest the return with 10 coins bet per line be less than 5 lines.

Quote:WizardAfter checking several casinos I finally found Dream Card at the Red Rock. Here were the stated Dream Card probabilities;

Bonus Poker: 46%

Deuces wild: 58%

Double bonus: 33%

Double Double bonus: 30%

Jacks or Better: 50%

Triple Double Bonus: 26%

I think some of these probabilities are rounded down, lest the return with 10 coins bet per line be less than 5 lines.

Yeah they can't round up, otherwise they open themselves up to complaints. But why not give the exact percentage to the nearest tenth? Were the people writing the help screen that lazy? But what's also concerning is your site claims Double Double Bonus is 31.0%, but the help screen claims 30%. A 30% hit rate would make 9/6 DDB Dream Card pay less than standard 9/6 DDB. And like you say, that's traditionally been a no-no with "gimmick games".

As the truth finder of all things gambling, I hate to leave it up to the player which to believe, but at this point I have to do that given two credible and differing sources on the Dream Card probabilities.

I'll update you if I get any further information.

any update of 58% vs 59% probability?Quote:WizardI asked IGT for a clarification on the Dream Card probabilities and still haven't heard back. Thanks to some help from Gary Koehler, I analyzed every game and pay table assuming the probabilities stated on the machines are right. Then, I updated my Dream Card page to show the return both ways.

As the truth finder of all things gambling, I hate to leave it up to the player which to believe, but at this point I have to do that given two credible and differing sources on the Dream Card probabilities.

I'll update you if I get any further information.

and where is Dreamcard 25-15-9-4-4-3 dw found?

Quote:100xOddsand where is Dreamcard 25-15-9-4-4-3 dw found?

This is disturbing to have one's EV dependent on IGT's competence.

On vpfree2, the game is listed at one casino: two machines, $1 5/10 play. I don't want to name the casino, but it's a tribal in California. A search at vpfree2 will give you the name.