DrawingDead
DrawingDead
Joined: Jun 13, 2014
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June 29th, 2014 at 6:45:31 AM permalink
I think I was at least partly wrong about this:
Quote: DrawingDead

I'm in Aria fairly often (though not to play these things) and I noticed as recently as a few months ago the ones at that property still offered the higher stakes. So, if that is someone's excuse, it is lame. They are right in front of one of the 3 biggest busiest most prominent poker venues in town. I rarely see anyone playing them.


I was in Aria yesterday, and remembered this thread as I walked past these HU-LHE machines (photo by me 6/28/14):



I don't recall exactly what the full range of stakes was in the past at this property, but I think it had at least one additional level as an option, like probably 20/40L.

On the other hand, I'll still say that if some of the folks in the most buffoonish pompous poser end of the local poker community's pond say they don't bother with it SOLELY for THIS reason, I still think that sounds pretty lame. I found the play on this thing tends to be very fast with an extraordinary hand count compared to anything else I've experienced, unless you're working really hard to diddle & dwaddle beyond all sensible reason & take extraordinary care to carefully inspect the assets of all the cocktail servers to keep it as slow as you can. So playing 10/20L head-up vs. this thing can quickly amount to a lot more than chump change, in my opinion.*

On yet again another hand, as I was saying to Phil Ivey, Ghandi, the Pope, and the Queen of England just the other day, I would've taken a seat in the 200/400 mixed game to vacuum up every last chip on the table while I was in the neighborhood, but unfortunately I suddenly remembered that I'm overdue to scrub the floor underneath my fridge, so I regret that I'll just have to catch it next time.

ADDENDUM: Re-reading this I think the way I wrote that might not be clear. I am NOT intending to say that "a lot more than chump change" will likely be won rather than lost, just that significant enough amounts can be played through it (at some locations) and risked on the thing if that's what someone is after. This machine is a very tough opponent. If it had legs and took a seat next to me I'd leave that table.
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 9:20:42 AM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

I think I was at least partly wrong about this:
I was in Aria yesterday, and remembered this thread as I walked past these HU-LHE machines (photo by me 6/28/14):



I don't recall exactly what the full range of stakes was in the past at this property, but I think it had at least one additional level as an option, like probably 20/40L.

On the other hand, I'll still say that if some of the folks in the most buffoonish pompous poser end of the local poker community's pond say they don't bother with it SOLELY for THIS reason, I still think that sounds pretty lame. I found the play on this thing tends to be very fast with an extraordinary hand count compared to anything else I've experienced, unless you're working really hard to diddle & dwaddle beyond all sensible reason & take extraordinary care to carefully inspect the assets of all the cocktail servers to keep it as slow as you can. So playing 10/20L head-up vs. this thing can quickly amount to a lot more than chump change, in my opinion.

On yet again another hand, as I was saying to Phil Ivey, Ghandi, the Pope, and the Queen of England just the other day, I would've taken a seat in the 200/400 mixed game to vacuum up every last chip on the table while I was in the neighborhood, but unfortunately I suddenly remembered that I'm overdue to scrub the floor underneath my fridge, so I regret that I'll just have to catch it next time.



If all the card benefits have been cut from these machines then I think that speaks volumes about who is winning.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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June 29th, 2014 at 10:01:04 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

If all the card benefits have been cut from these machines then I think that speaks volumes who is winning.

I wondered about that too. But then a peculiar thing (at least from how it struck me with my general lack of knowledge & experience with machine games) is how inconsistent they are. Red Rock counted the "coin-in" for comps & credits in their system exactly like they do on the the regular VP machines they have all over the casino floor at Station properties. Meanwhile at the opposite end of the range for these things in the Las Vegas area, at the MGM properties that have some here is the complete list of what you can get on your card from this game: "No." The variation made me wonder if they have any clearly defined idea of what they should want them to be worth... possibly related to the extremely limited number of these each of them has and the small volume of play on them from which to cook up a model to base that kind of thing on? I'm just going off into wild speculation here, and I freely admit I'm not well informed on how things work in that whole large electronic games part of the industry.
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 10:17:30 AM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

I wondered about that too. But then a peculiar thing (at least from how it struck me with my general lack of knowledge & experience with machine games) is how inconsistent they are. Red Rock counted the "coin-in" for comps & credits in their system exactly like they do on the the regular VP machines they have all over the casino floor at Station properties. Meanwhile at the opposite end of the range for these things in the Las Vegas area, at the MGM properties that have some here is the complete list of what you can get on your card from this game: "No." The variation made me wonder if they have any clearly defined idea of what they should want them to be worth... possibly related to the extremely limited number of these each of them has and the small volume of play on them from which to cook up a model to base that kind of thing on? I'm just going off into wild speculation here, and I freely admit I'm not well informed on how things work in that whole large electronic games part of the industry.



I would guess that the 2+2 forums thoroughly discussed this game and it's archived.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 10:22:09 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

I would guess that the 2+2 forums thoroughly discussed this game and it's archived.



http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/new-poker-machine-rake-free-headsup-limit-holdem-895984/
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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June 29th, 2014 at 10:38:43 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

I would guess that the 2+2 forums thoroughly discussed this game and it's archived.

I'm sure that's true. I'm equally sure that slogging through a 2+2 thread for most adults (certainly for me and nearly everyone I know) tends to resemble swimming through a septic tank to snag the valuable nuggets that are scattered & mixed in it somewhere within all the foul smelling slimy dreck and the 14 y/o boys raised by wolves doing what 14 y/o cubs think will make them sound cool online. But I'm sure you're right that if someone cares about these things enough to do it, the relevant information would almost certainly be in there somewhere, and that'd be the place if they are up to doing the digging & sifting.
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 11:38:56 AM permalink
I just talked to Al about the game. He played on two machines at Montbleu in Lake Tahoe. He had a friend that did the same. Al showed a 0.11% win after 200,000 hands. His friend showed a 0.05% loss. Al said you have to have solid game theory and know how to mix it up to hold your own in the game. The money was in the drawings and kickback checks. Montbleu cut the card benefits on the machines to nothing.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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June 29th, 2014 at 12:20:11 PM permalink
Thanks for taking the trouble to dig out the link. I can't believe I just went and ate the whoooole thing (sometimes skimmed through parts). I'm surely a sick man. Definitely now if not before. It may take me a week to decide for myself what I may have learned from it, but for the moment I get at least as much from reading your concise report of the personal experience of some folks you know. Though in fairness to the 2+2 thing, some of that is because I don't have all the background to digest some of the side discussions that make up a lot of the 2+2 thread, and also because it started as a breaking news sort of thing and I've already been introduced to Mr. Electro Poker Gizmo - and made a clumsy pass on his sister when invited in for lunch.
Quote: mickeycrimm

I just talked to Al about the game. He played on two machines at Montbleu in Lake Tahoe. He had a friend that did the same. Al showed a 0.11% win after 200,000 hands. His friend showed a 0.05% loss. Al said you have to have solid game theory and know how to mix it up to hold your own in the game. The money was in the drawings and kickback checks. Montbleu cut the card benefits on the machines to nothing.

"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 1:03:48 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Thanks for taking the trouble to dig out the link. I can't believe I just went and ate the whoooole thing (sometimes skimmed through parts). I'm surely a sick man. Definitely now if not before. It may take me a week to decide for myself what I may have learned from it, but for the moment I get at least as much from reading your concise report of the personal experience of some folks you know. Though in fairness to the 2+2 thing, some of that is because I don't have all the background to digest some of the side discussions that make up a lot of the 2+2 thread, and also because it started as a breaking news sort of thing and I've already been introduced to Mr. Electro Poker Gizmo - and made a clumsy pass on his sister when invited in for lunch.



Al says the bot plays super aggressive and you have to do the same thing. The bot will call the turn and river with ace high so you get good value out of your pair hands. There was a programming error when the game first came out that some guys snapped to. I think Al said they created $56 tickets and played 10-20. You called the preflop raise, then called on the flop and turn, then you bet out on the river with less than a full bet left. The bot would automatically fold even the nuts.

All suggests you play 5000 hands at the lowest denom and see how you hold up.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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June 29th, 2014 at 1:40:19 PM permalink
Al suggested this in depth New York Times article on the game.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/magazine/poker-computer.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm

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