Poll

2 votes (66.66%)
1 vote (33.33%)

3 members have voted

mattowen69
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June 11th, 2013 at 1:32:56 PM permalink
Now I know the Wizard has done consultancy work for several online casinos. I don't want to create a conflict of interest, however I would like to ask him in particular what he thinks of the use of RRS (Random Rotor Speed) wheels both online and offline ????

What do the rest of you think ?

Let me educate you.......I'm a real roulette dealer who recently lost a fair amount of money playing roulette online with a well known European online provider.......I later found out that the wheels they use actually have a motor in them which controls the speed of the wheel........NOT THE SO CALLED LIVE DEALER !!!

This is meant to be live...........but is to all intents is a RNG with a live monkey sitting there to give the impression of being live.....the casino controls the speed of the wheel.

Now the live providers go to a great deal NOT to tell anyone about these wheels. They can say what they like....it's a game of chance blah blah blah..We just make sure the ball can land anywhere.......Who's to say that if there is a player playing particularly high stakes that they can speed up or slow down the wheel to avoid numbers.

I FELL CHEATED !!!.........and I want to go to the media with this.



Casino Regulatory Authority of Singapore

3.3 The cylinder shall be constructed and designed to rotate and move freely of its own accord but all affixed parts of the roulette wheel must be secure and free from movement.
rdw4potus
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June 11th, 2013 at 1:46:16 PM permalink
Do the rules of Singapore actually apply to this European online provider? There's half a world between those two places!
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
FleaStiff
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:27:35 PM permalink
You chose an untrustworthy site and now you wish to complain?
Would you be complaining if you had won at this untrustworthy site?
MathExtremist
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:51:44 PM permalink
I don't know anything about these devices, but if there's a motor controlling the rotor and it can alter the speed of spin, then you could theoretically use a high speed camera and orbital decay calculations to evaluate where the ball would come to rest (within a few numbers) and adjust the speed of the spin as desired. I'm not saying this is happening, but it would be possible to do. Basically like applying Eudaemonic Pie from the house's perspective instead of the player's.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:55:08 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I don't know anything about these devices, but if there's a motor controlling the rotor



There's no 'if' involved.

"Slingshot 2 combines random rotor and ball speed at launch with Cammegh's unique ARC (Active Rotor Control) system which after 'no more bets', imperceptibly changes the rotor to a new random speed."

This is to defeat VB players, but it can also be used
to alter the result of the game.

http://www.roulette-i.com/slingshot-2-automated-roulette-wheel-launched.html
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mattowen69
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June 12th, 2013 at 1:48:59 AM permalink
Yes there is half a world between those two places........get a grip !!

So what you are trying to say ?...........the fact that there is a big distance between jurisdictions that this should make a difference to fairness ?

So i'f we're going to play live online roulette play on a live site that is based in Singapore ??????...........that way the wheels are not bent ?
mattowen69
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June 12th, 2013 at 1:53:04 AM permalink
FLEA'STIFF.......Do you work for the online providers ???

You get a grip as well..........can you actually manage to tell me anything about the providers ?

Example............Can you tell me a company that don't use these wheels ?

If I have won fair enough..........but the fact is I didn't !! and the wheel speed was controlled by the casino............CHEATING !!!
mattowen69
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June 12th, 2013 at 1:54:53 AM permalink
Hi Math,

To true !.........so far the most intelligent reply to my post I have yet read.

Thank you
mattowen69
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June 12th, 2013 at 2:03:23 AM permalink
Well Bob,

Your's is the second post that makes most sense.

What would happen "anywhere in the world" rdw............if after the ball was spinning if the dealer was to put their hand in the wheel and the change the speed................can anybody tell me what the casinos are doing is different ???
MonkeyMonkey
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June 12th, 2013 at 2:18:52 AM permalink
Quote: mattowen69

........get a grip !!



I would suggest that it is in fact you that should reconsider how you're replying. And perhaps while you're at it spend some time learning about this forum's particular culture, as you're running seriously afoul of the acceptable norms.

I have a question for you though: if you deal roulette why on earth would you play roulette?
mattowen69
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June 12th, 2013 at 5:00:52 AM permalink
very sorry MonkeyMonkey......maybe not the best idea. Coming on here, or trying to do anything for that matter after a particularly stressful discussion with my wife.

Must apologise didn't in a any mean to offend.

Matt
rdw4potus
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June 12th, 2013 at 8:09:15 AM permalink
Quote: mattowen69


What would happen "anywhere in the world" rdw............if after the ball was spinning if the dealer was to put their hand in the wheel and the change the speed................



I guess it depends. That's shady for sure. In a jurisdiction with a specific rule against it, there would be a recourse to take and repercussions for the action. In a jurisdiction where there is no rule against it, nothing would happen. And, since what is happening is explicitly spelled out in the game information, it's a pretty darn safe bet that this action is not against the rules in the jurisdiction where this action is occurring.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
EvenBob
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June 12th, 2013 at 11:14:34 AM permalink
As I pointed out, Cammegh makes these wheels and they
are the biggest wheel maker in EU. Its obviously legal to
use them or they wouldn't sell them. How they use them
might be a loophole in the law in some places. I know this,
I have long suspected several EU online casinos that use
real wheels have been up to 'something', I see things in
their outcomes on a regular basis that I never see in outcomes
from other real wheels.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mattowen69
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June 13th, 2013 at 1:59:17 AM permalink
Yes rdw...to true.

However I don't think in any jurisdictions where this is occurring it's spelled out in game information. I think everyone goes to a great deal of trouble to hide the fact that they use wheels that can be controlled by computer.

Surely 'live' means live.....the dealer turns the wheel and spins the ball. It looks as if it's coming to land near zero. The wheel then speeds up very slightly and the ball lands on the opposite side of the wheel from zero.....Big player playing round zero losses....Is this fair ?

Is this '''LIVE"""
mattowen69
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June 13th, 2013 at 2:03:26 AM permalink
Yes bob are they fair ?

How many players playing roulette in the EU would continue to play if they knew this.

The gaming industry goes on about transparency.....there is none here.
rdw4potus
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June 13th, 2013 at 7:13:46 AM permalink
Quote: mattowen69



The gaming industry goes on about transparency.....there is none here.



You mean, other than the publicly available information about these wheels that several of us were easily able to find? There is no transparency, except for that transparency, right?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
mattowen69
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June 13th, 2013 at 8:52:40 AM permalink
yeahhaaa !!

I have opened a can worms.................So what % of players playing live Roulette do you think take the time and effort to go look up info on the wheels used ?....I don't mean it cheeky...How many players are rdw ?.....You can be assured of one thing. Several hundred have now read this post. So iv'e increased the number of people looking into it.......right ?

How many players take it for granted that the wheels don't move other than how fast the dealers spin them.......How many have looked at the cammegh website.

You haven't actually said whether you think it is fair ?.

Transparency ?.............maybe the online live casinos should use the cammegh transparent wheels....then we could see the engine underneath....then again that would just be more money for cammegh. Which is probably what the RRS wheels are all about in the first place....right ?
rdw4potus
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June 13th, 2013 at 9:06:33 AM permalink
Quote: mattowen69

yeahhaaa !!

I have opened a can worms.................So what % of players playing live Roulette do you think take the time and effort to go look up info on the wheels used ?....I don't mean it cheeky...How many players are rdw ?.....You can be assured of one thing. Several hundred have now read this post. So iv'e increased the number of people looking into it.......right ?

How many players take it for granted that the wheels don't move other than how fast the dealers spin them.......How many have looked at the cammegh website.

You haven't actually said whether you think it is fair ?.

Transparency ?.............maybe the online live casinos should use the cammegh transparent wheels....then we could see the engine underneath....then again that would just be more money for cammegh. Which is probably what the RRS wheels are all about in the first place....right ?



I think that if you have the time and money to play online, you also have the time to figure out if the game is fair BEFORE wagering your money in an online casino. And I think that's a pretty basic concept. You're right that many players haven't done that. That's not the casino's fault, and it's not their responsibility to inform players, either.

I'm not sure why you think I haven't actually said whether I think it's fair. When I said it was shady, that was akin to saying that it's not fair. But it's also not against the rules in the jurisdiction where the game resides. The casinos are playing within the rules, and assuming that players who don't know any better will play and lose. Looks like that assumption is correct. Good for the casinos.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Wizard
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June 13th, 2013 at 9:47:12 AM permalink
The OP seems to be saying that the casino can control where the ball lands by manipulating the speed of the wheel. Sorry, but I don't think the technology exists to do that.

What I could picture happening is the wheel randomly changing speed, even mid-spin, to combat online wheel clockers. I think this is a reasonable fear and defense. If my assumption is right, then I wouldn't call it cheating. I'd view it like the casinos putting the bumpy surface at the craps tables, to add another level of randomization to the outcome.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrCasinoGames
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June 13th, 2013 at 10:00:29 AM permalink
I don't see anything wrong with the Casino using RRS wheels and it has GLI approval for single and double zero wheels.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Keyser
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June 13th, 2013 at 10:32:25 AM permalink
Yes, I believe the Cammegh's unique ARC (Active Rotor Control) wheels are cheating since the wheel changes speed during the spin. It's no different than the dealer reaching into the wheel and slowing the wheel down during the spin. Thanks for pointing out the name of the wheel - Cammegh Sling Shot 2.

I will inform everyone I know that they should avoid playing roulette where the Cammegh Sling Shot 2 roulette wheel is in use.
EvenBob
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June 13th, 2013 at 1:00:09 PM permalink
But the technology does exist to put the ball
in a certain wheel section, or more important,
to avoid a section. All you need is cameras
on the spinning wheel and ball and a computer
to calculate the probability of where the ball
will drop. And a way to vary wheel speed once
the ball has been released. Online casinos have
all these features.

Say you have 300 people online betting a single
wheel. On some spins, there will be an abundance
of bets in a 6-7 pocket section of the wheel. Its
in the casinos best interests to avoid that section
so they do, by controlling the outcome. The rest
of the time the bets are distributed evenly, so
it doesn't matter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Buzzard
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June 13th, 2013 at 1:02:11 PM permalink
Gee Bob, next you will be telling me on-line poker is crooked too.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
MathExtremist
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:08:22 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Yes, I believe the Cammegh's unique ARC (Active Rotor Control) wheels are cheating since the wheel changes speed during the spin. It's no different than the dealer reaching into the wheel and slowing the wheel down during the spin.


The wheel speed already changes during the spin -- it slows slightly. If the wheel is poorly maintained, it will slow even more. There is no basis for calling that cheating, whether it happens naturally, by manual force, or by motor control, unless the resulting distribution becomes non-uniform. In other words, if varying the speed of the wheel doesn't matter, it can't be cheating.

Note that an ARC wheel could actually be used to *combat* cheating. If a dealer can put the ball in a particular sector of the wheel in a normal game, and signal his accomplices to bet appropriately, the house could lose a lot of money. This technology would prevent that.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:11:58 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But the technology does exist to put the ball
in a certain wheel section, or more important,
to avoid a section. All you need is cameras
on the spinning wheel and ball and a computer
to calculate the probability of where the ball
will drop. And a way to vary wheel speed once
the ball has been released.


No, you don't even need the last part. If a casino wanted to increase its roulette profits unfairly, it could use the camera/computer setup to compute the most profitable sector of the wheel given the current bets (after no more bets), then just signal the dealer to release the ball at the right time at a given speed. All the dealer has to do is release the ball with the same speed each time.

Now *that* would be cheating.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:38:56 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist



Now *that* would be cheating.



Thats why they don't do it. They change the wheel
speed instead. Accomplishes the same thing.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
gts4ever
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:49:33 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I would suggest that it is in fact you that should reconsider how you're replying. And perhaps while you're at it spend some time learning about this forum's particular culture, as you're running seriously afoul of the acceptable norms.

I have a question for you though: if you deal roulette why on earth would you play roulette?



Props on saving the thread, Monkey.

Also curious to hear the answer to your question from OP...
MathExtremist
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June 13th, 2013 at 5:19:28 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Thats why they don't do it. They change the wheel
speed instead. Accomplishes the same thing.


Only if the wheel speed is changed in response to a computation of where the ball is likely to come to rest. Do you have any proof whatsoever that this is happening?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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June 13th, 2013 at 5:36:06 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Only if the wheel speed is changed in response to a computation of where the ball is likely to come to rest. Do you have any proof whatsoever that this is happening?



They're doing something at some of the EU
online casinos. I've suspected it for years.
I see outcomes on the live wheels on a regular
basis that I rarely if ever see on wheels anywhere
else. Over and over and over again. Its laughable
sometimes.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Pando
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June 13th, 2013 at 8:05:48 PM permalink
This is apparently a fully automated air ball wheel with no dealer. I have seen these machines (not necessarily this model) operating in Macau and Singapore.
In my previous posts, feedback from many contributors indicates these wheels are not biased, but did never consider whether the outcomes are manipulated.

I think the original poster was questioning manipulation of a live roulette wheel with a live dealer by some kind of interference that would effect the outcome in favour of the casino.
thomasleor
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July 1st, 2018 at 8:07:48 AM permalink
No post
Last edited by: thomasleor on Jul 1, 2018
TumblingBones
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March 28th, 2021 at 5:52:18 PM permalink
I'm not into roulette so it's no surprise had never heard of this type of wheel until it was mentioned recently in passing on another thread [post]. I'm curious as to how prevalent the use of these wheels is in B&M casinos. Are there any jurisdictions where they are banned?
My goal of being well informed conflicts with my goal of remaining sane.
heatmap
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TumblingBones
March 28th, 2021 at 7:13:34 PM permalink
Quote: TumblingBones

I'm not into roulette so it's no surprise had never heard of this type of wheel until it was mentioned recently in passing on another thread [post]. I'm curious as to how prevalent the use of these wheels is in B&M casinos. Are there any jurisdictions where they are banned?



i mean every casino ive ever seen usually has a cammegh wheel in it

im also nearly certain that in Pennsylvania that they have it coded into law and the one im quoting is only the first way of 3 ways it requires randomization techniques


https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/Display/pacode?file=/secure/pacode/data/058/chapter605a/s605a.6.html&searchunitkeywords=roulette%2Crandom&origQuery=roulette%20random&operator=OR&title=null

Quote:


§ 605a.6. Integrated live Roulette wheels used on fully automated electronic gaming tables.

(a) A fully automated electronic gaming table with an integrated live Roulette wheel must randomize the method by which the outcome is determined. This includes, but is not limited to the speed at which the ball is ejected onto the wheel and the speed at which the wheel rotates.

(b) A fully automated electronic gaming table with an integrated live Roulette wheel must be capable of determining if the wheel meets a 95% confidence limit using a standard chi-squared test for goodness of fit. The calculation must be made based on the following criteria:

(1) Ten thousand outcomes have been generated.

(2) A new calculation must be made for each 10,000 subsequent outcomes.

(3) The calculation must consider only the most recent 10,000 outcomes.

(c) A fully automated electronic gaming table with an integrated live Roulette wheel must be capable of displaying a visual notification, clearable by an attendant, if at any time the live Roulette wheel has failed the chi-squared test for goodness of fit under subsection (b).

(d) A fully automated electronic gaming table with an integrated live Roulette wheel must be capable of disabling play in the event that the wheel has failed to meet the 95% confidence limit for goodness of fit test required under subsection (b) for two consecutive testing periods. Attendant interaction shall be required before enabling the table for play.

(e) A fully automated electronic gaming table with an integrated live Roulette wheel must be capable of providing a report that shows the results of the last chi-squared test as well as the previous 9 chi-squared tests. The report must contain the following:

(1) The time and date the test was performed.

(2) The table ID or any comparable identifier.

(3) The number of games used to perform the test.

(4) The outcome of the test.

TumblingBones
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March 29th, 2021 at 5:45:45 AM permalink
Thanks for including the link to the source material. After digging deeper into the PA code, I'm not sure this is addressing the specific scenario I had in mind. I searched the PC code and the law you point to seems to be the closest but it explicitly refers to "Fully automated electronic gaming table. I checked the definitions:
Quote: PA 601a.1


Electronic gaming table

(i) An approved gaming table that is a mechanical, electrical or computerized contrivance, terminal, machine or other device which, upon insertion or placement of cash or cash equivalents therein or thereon, or upon a wager or payment of any consideration whatsoever, is available for play or operation by one or more players as a table game.

(ii) The term includes any gaming table where a wager or payment is made using an electronic or computerized wagering or payment system.

(iii) The term does not include a slot machine.

Fully automated electronic gaming table—An electronic gaming table determined by the Board to be playable or operable as a table game without the assistance or participation of a person acting on behalf of a certificate holder


To me , that seems to apply to something like Stadium Roulette

I'm wondering about good old fashioned nothing electronic roulette tables.
My goal of being well informed conflicts with my goal of remaining sane.
heatmap
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March 29th, 2021 at 8:59:55 AM permalink
yes the definition you give is specifically for the gaming table though


What I gave the law for was Integrated live Roulette wheels used on fully automated electronic gaming tables.

to me the wording is clearly saying that these live roulette wheels - being used in conjunction with a fully automated table game - must use these randomization techniques

the only stadiums they have at wind creek are all live dealer

if i remember correctly i actually asked people here what the difference between a gaming table and a fully automated electronic gaming table and not many knew but im pretty sure the consensus was that it was just the table used to bet - not necessarily the "random number generator" as im going to call it here - as the roulette wheel or blackjack cards are separate from the gaming table. the game is played on a gaming table. this is at least how i interpret it. you could be correct
Last edited by: heatmap on Mar 29, 2021
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