RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
March 4th, 2010 at 1:07:55 PM permalink
I have a resolution this year to try and keep as accurate a track as I can on my gambling trips. Obviously bankroll taken, and net outcome are key entries. Since I play almost 100% craps, I don't have to worry about tracking lots of games. This log needs to have enough information so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.

I also think I would like to try and track some roll outcomes.
For instance:
how many times exactly, does a shooter 7 out on their first roll after the point?
how many points does each shooter make?

Do any of you keep gambling logs, and if so, what information have you found vital to have?
Also, what information did you think you need, but ended up dumping? I expect trying to track the rolls is going to prove too much work, and interfere with the 'fun' of the experience.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1338
  • Posts: 22092
March 4th, 2010 at 1:35:08 PM permalink
According to page 12 of IRS publication 529 ,the minimum a gambling log should include is:

Date and type of wager or wagering activity.
The name and address or location of the gambling establishment.
Names of other persons present during the gambling activity.
Amount won or lost.

In addition, you should keep other documentation such as W2-G forms and losing tickets.

Personally, I keep my log in Excel, and always retain W2-G forms and losing sports tickets.

The book Tax Help for Gamblers by Jean Scott & Marissa Chien has a whole chapter on this topic.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 178
  • Posts: 10256
March 4th, 2010 at 1:55:36 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

...so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.

Very nice positive thinking!

Tracking individual shooter's activity might be useful for your own analysis, but I doubt the IRS cares. In fact, casinos might frown upon that, so don't bother.

On the flip side, if you were a Bacarat player and kept notes, yeah, keep those notes with the tax records once you're done analyzing it.

If you take out any markers or ATM withdrawls, keep those receipts to help prove how much you went thru.


Now that I think about it, since you get a receipt when you take out as well as pay off markers, that might be the best backup paperwork you can get.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
March 4th, 2010 at 2:00:08 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I have a resolution this year to try and keep as accurate a track as I can on my gambling trips. Obviously bankroll taken, and net outcome are key entries. Since I play almost 100% craps, I don't have to worry about tracking lots of games. This log needs to have enough information so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.

I also think I would like to try and track some roll outcomes.
For instance:
how many times exactly, does a shooter 7 out on their first roll after the point?
how many points does each shooter make?

Do any of you keep gambling logs, and if so, what information have you found vital to have?
Also, what information did you think you need, but ended up dumping? I expect trying to track the rolls is going to prove too much work, and interfere with the 'fun' of the experience.



I would log whatever is of interest to you. But all of these things are calculable so you would need to measure something against an objective that you have. For me, I would keep a log to validate a betting system that you have.

The way I see it is that I would log every roll that you see. That way, when you come home, you have an entire data set to analyze. The worst part about data is that you don't have enough to analyze. I would also keep track of your bets and the amount won or lost on each roll. You might also want to add a column for the quality of shooter that the player is if you care or if you want to match up fact with superstition!

Whenever I go gambling, I log my wins and losses and the games that I played to get there. So, for example, my log would look like this. I don't care about individual bets.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
March 4th, 2010 at 5:52:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

According to page 12 of IRS publication 529 ,the minimum a gambling log should include is:

Date and type of wager or wagering activity.
The name and address or location of the gambling establishment.
Names of other persons present during the gambling activity.
Amount won or lost.



What, they don't ask for an exact count of the times the dice bounced before hitting the back wall? Is the IRS getting soft?

Seriously, do you have to ask other gamblers for their names at, say, a craps table to put them in your log? Or does this refer to the dealers? Or to other people in your gambling aprty?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
calwatch
calwatch
Joined: Feb 7, 2010
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 108
March 5th, 2010 at 6:13:10 PM permalink
It has to be a contemporaneous record of activity (similar to a mileage log when you are allocating mileage between personal and business use of a vehicle). Note that, contrary to IRS instruction, gambling logs can be recorded on a per session basis, not on a per-roll or per-pull basis (although one could choose to be more detailed if they wished). It's per visit, or per-buy of the chips. Shollenberger v. Commissioner. The IRS instruction to have witnesses is suggestive, but the Tax Court has found that other contemporaneous records are acceptable, such as gambling calendars, canceled checks, and ATM withdrawal receipts. Gagliardi v. Commissioner (which in itself is a sad read of a lottery winner who literally threw several hundred thousand dollars down the drain every year, by gambling almost every working day). Even bank statements will get you partial credit if the Tax Court believes you - Tomko vs. Commissioner.

For horse betters, one idea would be to collect the losing tickets, put it in the Daily Racing Form, and tape it up. Just make sure your tax preparer doesn't lose the records. Caro vs. Commissioner.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
March 5th, 2010 at 7:01:15 PM permalink
Great post calwatch. That is some good and useful input.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5444
March 5th, 2010 at 10:07:11 PM permalink
Quote: calwatch

Gagliardi v. Commissioner (which in itself is a sad read of a lottery winner who literally threw several hundred thousand dollars down the drain every year, by gambling almost every working day).


Wow, that is really sobering.
-----------------------------------
Does the tax court still use a typewriter?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
calwatch
calwatch
Joined: Feb 7, 2010
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 108
March 5th, 2010 at 10:57:33 PM permalink
All legal documents are still produced in a basic font - the Tax Court apparently likes Courier, most other courts use Times. The official versions generally have line numbers on the left hand side.

What's interesting is that the Tax Court catches the IRS in a bit of hypocrisy (page 22) and the laziness of the IRS counsel to rely on a definition of "pathological gambling" from, of all places, Wikipedia (!) (page 26). Also a description of the taxpayer's expert witness, Mark Nicely, who apparently has solved the "gambler's ruin" math problem, but only shares it with his clients as it is a trade secret (page 29), and a formula that takes into account amount bet and time played to corroborate that the amount lost was reasonable (page 30).

  • Jump to: