"Max lines + feature bets" - still optimal?

It's standard advice that if you must play slot machines, it's best (at least in terms of expected loss per unit wagered) to play max credits, and I think the Wizard endorses this. I was wondering whether it was still usually best to play max credits when this includes a surcharge for jackpot eligibility (e.g. "20 lines + feature" for 30x line bet), or whether this fell under the 9th commandment.

Quote: 24Bingo

It's standard advice that if you must play slot machines, it's best (at least in terms of expected loss per unit wagered) to play max credits, and I think the Wizard endorses this. I was wondering whether it was still usually best to play max credits when this includes a surcharge for jackpot eligibility (e.g. "20 lines + feature" for 30x line bet), or whether this fell under the 9th commandment.

I have a couple of remarks about this:

1.) There are machines with, what I term, "Perfectly graduated payouts." For example, if you have a $1.00 machine (Max Two Credits) that pays $2,500 for the top prize on a One Credit Bet and $5,000 for a two credit bet AND all of the other 2nd Credit Payouts are simply the First Credit payouts multiplied by two across the board, you are not hurting your ER by betting only one credit. There are machines such as the one I just described at all levels of denominations, at least, in the casinos in which I have played. You have to look for them, though. These machines are the one exception to the Wizard's endorsement because it has no impact on the ER how you bet.

2.) You must always play the Max on a Progressive machine. It is also occasionally (but rarely) the case that a Progressive will grow so high that you are actually playing at a +ER. If nothing else, playing at a Progressive that has grown to high $$$ value compared to one that has not (assuming the same machine type) at least cuts into the -ER.

3.) What you are describing is technically not a side bet, pursuant to the Ninth Commandment, but it is simply a part of the slot machine's theoretical return which, in this case, is going to be maximized by max betting, in all probability. I will admit that I don't really play those kinds of machines, so I could be wrong, but generally, you'll lose money faster by Max Betting (including surcharge) even at a slightly higher ER, but the ER is just that, higher.

It's honestly very little different than playing a slot machine such as Blazing 7's, which the Wizard HAS fully analyzed on WOO. In Blazing 7's, you very simply must be betting at least 2 Credits/Line for certain results to even pay ANYTHING, and the difference between the Second and Third Credit/Line (as with most slot machines) is imperfectly graduated, so you maximize your ER by playing three credits/line.

If you insist on playing those kinds of machines, then you would probably just want to think of it as Max Betting on an imperfectly graduated payout schedule as opposed to not Max Betting. That's basically all you are doing. I very seriously doubt if the casino is going to reduce your ER for betting a greater amount of money, because, if there is a $1.00 machine where the 1st Credit/Line pays 1000 Credits and the 2nd Credit/Line only pays 1,500, I certainly have never seen it.

no, not always max bet = best

there are several slots where multiple credits doesnt multiple the payout for the lower prizes.

ie: the machine might be max 3 coin in. the lower prizes might pay anywhere from 2 to 60 credits for 1 coin in.
but you get the same prize amount if u put in 2 or 3 coin in.

the upper prizes might be 100, 250, and 500 and those do get multipled by 2x for 2 coin-in and 3x for 3 coin-in. (yeah, not even a bonus for the top prize at 3coin in.)

my theory on the only reason to play this machine is if the minimum payout mandated by gaming commission is 90% on slots. because the machine HAS to payout a certain amount, your odds of hitting the upper prizes is HIGHER?!

can anyone confirm that?!

Quote: 100xOdds

no, not always max bet = best

there are several slots where multiple credits doesnt multiple the payout for the lower prizes.

ie: the machine might be max 3 coin in. the lower prizes might pay anywhere from 2 to 60 credits for 1 coin in.
but you get the same prize amount if u put in 2 or 3 coin in.

the upper prizes might be 100, 250, and 500 and those do get multipled by 2x for 2 coin-in and 3x for 3 coin-in. (yeah, not even a bonus for the top prize at 3coin in.)

my theory on the only reason to play this machine is if the minimum payout mandated by gaming commission is 90% on slots. because the machine HAS to payout a certain amount, your odds of hitting the upper prizes is HIGHER?!

can anyone confirm that?!

1.) Blazing Sevens is an example of a machine where betting higher does not multiply the payout for the lower prizes, and it is a machine that The Wiz has been kind enough to fully break down on WOO. However, with Blazing Sevens, you have to be betting at least Two Credits/Line for some results (namely, anything involving the Blazing Sevens) to pay anything!!! You could line up five of the Blazing Sevens on the first pay line, beautiful, magnificent, straight-across-the-middle, and you will literally win absolutely nothing if you did not bet at least Two Credits on that line.

The payouts for the other results do not increase with an increased bet, so the ER On those specific results is reduced, but the ER of the game increases because the 7's are now in play.

2.) I have never seen a machine in my life where the prize amount, in actual money, say $0.05/Line for Three Cherries, remains the same when you bet One Credit or Three Credits/line AND the upper payouts are perfectly graduated. I'm going to say this with all due respect, but I think it is quite possible that the payout schedule of whatever machine you are referring to may have confused you on this point. There are some machines where the monetary value of Three Cherries will remain the same regardless of Credit/Line bet, however, the upper prizes do not come into play for a lesser credit bet.

Blazing Sevens is, again, an example of such a machine. If you are betting Max Lines but only one credit/line, you could have three Blazing Sevens on every single stop and it is literally NOT GOING TO MATTER AT ALL because you do not qualify for that prize at one credit/line.

Please do not be offended if you were confused in this way. The next occasion that I happen to be walking by a Blazing Sevens machine and have to explain to a visibly upset person why their Sevens accomplished nothing for them, honestly, will not be the first. I've also seen attendants get summoned over to the Blazing Sevens bank, and since it wasn't for a handpay (not glowing red or anything) I have to assume it was for just that reason, or a stuck bill/ticket, but probably that reason.

3.) In reference to the other machines that you have described, those with, what I term, "Perfectly graduated payouts," where a Three Credit top prize may be 15000 credits and One Credit top is 5000 Credits, does not necessarily mean that your odds of hitting the top prize are higher.

In the event that machines are regulated by a Gaming/Lottery commission, they must be programmed to payout and the statutory minimum, or better, and some jurisdictions actually have a maximum!!! However, the fact that they must payout at a minimum (even when there is no Third Credit Jackpot Bonus) does not make a jackpot more likely.

In order to advertise a specific payout, the only qualification to legally advertise that is that it MUST BE POSSIBLE. It can be unlikely as it wants to be and there are any number of ways that you could program a machine to pay, say, 88%. For instance, on the Mega Millions machines in Vegas where the Top Prize is in the hundreds of millions (or is it billions), it is a possible result on any of those machines, it's just damn unlikely.

I could have a machine with 64 stops per reel and put only one Jackpot symbol on each reel of a five reel machine, thereby making your odds of winning the Jackpot on any given line 1:1,073,741,824. If I have to meet a minimum percentage return, then I will compensate for the near impossibility of hitting the jackpot simply by making the lower pays more likely. If you ever want to judge the jackpot odds of a given machine, simply do what the Wizard did with, "Deconstructing Blazing Sevens," and try to figure out the reel assignments as best you can.

If you want a simple example, let's say that the Gaming Commission mandates that my slots must pay out at 79%, and since I do not want anyone to play at my casino, I am only going to exceed this 79% by a miniscule amount. You could use a format such as the, "$100 or Nothing," machines to accomplish this most easily. I am going to have a machine that either takes your Credit or Pays 2:1 and you can only play one line. That's it, those are the only two possible results.

If I am going to guarantee you an 79%return, then that's $79/$100, so paying only 2 for 1 or nothing, I'm going to need the machine to be programmed to have you win 39.5% of the time. I could have 25 stops per each reel with three reels and put 24 Sevens on the first reel, 20 Sevens on the Second Reel and 13 Sevens on the third reel and you get:

24/25 * 20/25 * 13/25 =

.96 * .80 * .52 =

.39936 or 39.936% chance of winning.

If you take that .39936 * 200 the ER on my machine is $79.872, as that is the only possible result besides a loss. Keep in mind that Even Money pays (when applicable) and even pays that are less than even money count towards return %ages.

The point is that I can make that machine pay whatever I want it to pay simply by adding more Sevens to any given reel (if the first reel had all 25 Sevens it would win 41.6% of the time for an ER of $83.20/$100) or subtracting Sevens from a given reel.

It works the same with any other slot machine, except there are just more possible results that need to be made more/less likely. You would do this and calcuate the ER of that particular result using the same formula as above (with number of symbols/reel and number of reel stops probably being different) and then you add up all of the ER's for every particular result per Credit Bet and the result is the percentage ER for that particular slot machine.

I cannot emphasize enough that, for a slot machine to advertise a specific payout, it need only be possible. I could theoretically have ten pays where nine of which have a 1:1,000,000,000 chance of hitting, but set up the machine to return even money on the lowest pay 85% of the time! If I only have to return 85%, and all returns on the machine are at least theoretically possible, then I am in the clear!!!

The machine would not be popular for very long, though!

Mission146,

wow.. thx for the detailed explanation!

i do remember that the top prize for 3 coin in was double that for 2 coin in. (it's a $1 machine.)
but u might be right in that there is no payout for the upper prizes if it's just 1 coin in since the upper prize schedule only had 2 columns.

Quote: 100xOdds

Mission146,

wow.. thx for the detailed explanation!

i do remember that the top prize for 3 coin in was double that for 2 coin in. (it's a $1 machine.)
but u might be right in that there is no payout for the upper prizes if it's just 1 coin in since the upper prize schedule only had 2 columns.

You're very welcome!

If the upper prize schedule only had two columns, then there definitely wasn't a pay for One Credit/Line for those upper pay results. The results listed under the column which would say, "1st Credit Pays," are also the lower payouts (in terms of credits) no matter how many credits you are betting, unless something different is listed along with that, which I doubt.

Those kinds of machines are not what I would call common, but they're not unusual, either. It's quite possible, in fact, that you were actually playing the $1.00 version of Blazing Sevens, I've seen that before, but have not played it. I'll keep an eye out next time and make sure to write down the names of other games like that at the $1.00 level, if I see any.

I've also seen $1.00 machines that have been Max 2 Credits and there are certain 1st Credit per Line Pays which pay the same on the 2nd Credit per Line (in monetary value), but the Second Credit per Line has pays where you get nothing if you hit for it only playing the 1st.

The top prize for 3rd Coin/Line being double that of 2nd Coin/Line is actually not a perfectly graduated payout. The reason why is because you are not doubling the total bet, but you are doubling the pay for a one credit increase.

I'm going to give you a quick example:

Let's say I have a machine where there are four pays on the 1st Credit Line that are each 20% likely and return your bet.

The expected return on each is $0.20 for a total of $0.80.

For the 2nd Credit/Line I am going to award a prize of 20 for Three Sevens, and that has a 5% chance of happening. The payout for the four results above does not change.

$0.80 + (20 * .05) =

$0.80 + 1 = $1.80

For the 3rd Credit/Line I am going to double the Three Sevens prize to 40 and it is still 5% likely.

$0.80 + (40 * .05) =

$0.80 + 2 = $2.80

Here are the ER's per Credit Spent

The ER on 1 Credit/Line is .8/1 = $0.80

The ER on 2 Credit/Line is $1.80/2 = $0.90

The ER on 3 Credit/Line is $2.80/3 = $0.93

The payouts between 2nd and 3rd doubled, but are not perfectly graduated. The reason why is because the bet between the 2nd and 3rd Credit/Line did not double. It works this way because a lesser percentage of your bet is, "Going towards," trying to win the 1st Credit Line results.

If you could bet 4 Credits/Line and you added another 20 to my Three Sevens:

$0.80 + (60 * .05) =

$0.80 + 3 = $3.80

$3.80/4 = $0.95 ER per dollar bet.

That's basically how that works.

ahh.. so in this case max credits is the best bet

Quote: 24Bingo

It's standard advice that if you must play slot machines, it's best (at least in terms of expected loss per unit wagered) to play max credits, and I think the Wizard endorses this. I was wondering whether it was still usually best to play max credits when this includes a surcharge for jackpot eligibility (e.g. "20 lines + feature" for 30x line bet), or whether this fell under the 9th commandment.

I think this describes those WMS HotHotRespin machines where in addition to buying all the lines, with the extra bet the reels will lock in a strip of symbols when they hit in the first column, then respin the other reels to try for a bonus. All symbols are in effect no matter your bet size, but the machine acts differently if you purchase the respin feature. Not quite the same as the Blazing 7s "buy your pay" design.

I like the Zeus II machine that has this feature. I'll play all lines plus the feature, but I won't bet max per line if it's a nickel machine--that runs up to $10 per spin sometimes! I prefer to keep it to $3 or under per spin on penny or nickel machines since the return isn't very good--the games are just fun.

Quote: 100xOdds

ahh.. so in this case max credits is the best bet

Absolutely, because it's not perfectly graduated, though it appears to be.

In my example, a payout of 38 (not 40) would be perfectly graduated for Three Sevens on the 3rd Credit Bet:

$0.80 + (38 * .05)

$0.80 + $1.90 = $2.70

$2.70/3 = $0.90 ER for every dollar bet

Same as Two Credits.

Max Credits will always and invariably be the best bet excepting only machines with a perfectly graduated payout. In those cases, it doesn't matter how many Credits you bet.