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19 members have voted

InTimeForSpace1
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April 26th, 2017 at 10:36:23 AM permalink
Quote: RS

You sure? Doesn't show up on his recent posts list. But it does say he logged in today. So hopefully that's a good sign.

I would think that's a bad sign.
Believers are the ones who keep at it long after they've been told it can't be done. On the other hand, the real experts shouldn't care about the crackpots. But, if the wrong answer begs the question, then the wrong question begs the answer.
Romes
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April 26th, 2017 at 12:06:53 PM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

...One was so disgusting that I can now say I will never eat one again.

Can I get action on that? ;-)
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
wudged
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April 26th, 2017 at 5:12:48 PM permalink
Speaking of seen on facebook - (possibly nsfw) http://thesmokinggun.com/buster/chicken-mcnuggets/mcnuggets-bust-673024

Wonder how many nuggets she can down in one night if you know what I mean...
MaxPen
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April 26th, 2017 at 7:27:07 PM permalink
What happens in life writes a story in our flesh. Meth happened.
Mission146
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April 29th, 2017 at 8:41:08 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Mission's humiliation hits a new high. You
need to vindicate yourself, get back in
the game.



Why would I be humiliated? I literally choked, it had nothing to do with my stomach. There are quite a few who can attest that I slammed down beer after beer for hours almost immediately after my attempt, and then after that, I tore up the food court at...maybe Fremont?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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April 29th, 2017 at 8:44:39 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I

#2: Mission146: This one also ended in mid 80's for reasons debated to this day. As I understand it, a chunk went down the wrong pipe and Mission choked, literally, but never vomited. However, he did this over a trashcan so it looked like he was. However, he never ate more so nobody disputes he fell short of the 100 goal.



I swear on my life I didn't, but I thought that I might from the choking, that's why I went over the trashcan to be safe. My stomach felt just fine.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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April 29th, 2017 at 8:47:40 AM permalink
Congratulations, TomG! Incredible effort, I can say with almost absolute certainty I could never touch 150.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
TomG
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April 30th, 2017 at 6:48:35 PM permalink
Looking back, it sucked while it was happening, but wouldn't be opposed to doing it again, just doubtful anyone would care to pay. Threw up and felt a lot better. Like the pancakes, could barely make the drive home without falling asleep. All negative side effects were over in less than 24 hours. If it was five years ago I could have done a lot better; there are lots of people out there who could do a lot more. I just don't have the time or energy to really practice for something like this anymore. For this past week I've been telling myself I will never eat another large meal again. But I'll have nothing to do this summer and lots of buffet comps.
rxwine
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April 30th, 2017 at 6:54:03 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

For this past week I've been telling myself I will never eat another large meal again. But I'll have nothing to do this summer and lots of buffet comps.



So, what do you demolish at a buffet? 150 oysters?
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MaxPen
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April 30th, 2017 at 6:56:50 PM permalink
He's alive!!!!!
Wizardofnothing
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April 30th, 2017 at 7:38:39 PM permalink
http://nypost.com/2017/04/30/woman-agreed-to-trade-sex-for-mcnuggets-cops/
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
RS
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April 30th, 2017 at 8:23:28 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

http://nypost.com/2017/04/30/woman-agreed-to-trade-sex-for-mcnuggets-cops/


Wow. What I'm confused about sort of, is, why would the undercover cop haggle her on the price? Perhaps I don't understand how undercover anti-prostitution cops or w/e work. But if it were a drug bust with a dude wearing a wire, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be like, "Okay, you're offering $50k for 10 pounds of meth.....let's make it $5k for 20 pounds." then the drug dude being like, "Hmm....how about 15 pounds for $35k?" then they haggle back and forth. If anything, the undercover dude would be like, "You're offering $50k for 10 pounds, sure, let's do it" and not try to be a cheap-a** and haggle the price down.

Then again, maybe the undercover dude's natural instincts came in and he was thinking, "Nah, no way, this b**** nasty as all hell.....I'll drop the price from $100 to $25...and I'll throw in some chicken nuggets, she'll be all over that."
GWAE
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May 1st, 2017 at 4:49:21 AM permalink
Tomg, it was asked a bunch of times and you seemed to ignore the question in the past. Maybe you will answer now that the bet has resolved.

Why were you confident that you could beat the precious record by 50%? Have you done competitive eating before?
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SOOPOO
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May 1st, 2017 at 4:51:25 AM permalink
It is too bad Tom did not just say he was going to smash the WoV record by trying for 150, then this would just be a celebration of that accomplishment. The multiple higher numbers which he was shooting for should not tarnish his amazing gustatory feat.
RS
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May 1st, 2017 at 5:48:12 AM permalink
Agreed. TomG should'a said he was confident he could get to 60, a bit iffy on getting to 80, and 100 would be very tough. Then he makes a bet with someone for like $20 for every nugget over 100 or $10 under 100 (90 nuggets = he owes $10x10 = $100...150 nuggets = he profits $20*50 = $1,000).

Then again, he didn't strike me as the kinda person that'd do something like that.


Also, since it was known he ate the 50 pancakes or whatever at Dupars (place at golden gate) with a relative breeze, likely would'a been difficult to get himself some good action. Then again, (theoretically) if someone thinks betting that a German doesn't know the capitol of Germany is a good bet, I guess anything's possible.
Rigondeaux
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:41:29 AM permalink
Wait, the answer is so obvious.



Added angle: playing gets anybody unbanned.
billryan
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:46:22 AM permalink
Russian Roulette is for pussys. In Chechnya , you play with automatics.
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Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 6:50:25 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

Wait, the answer is so obvious.



Math puzzle time!

Assuming a revolver, with six chambers and one bullet, rotating the chamber before each pull, what is the probability the one to go first dies?
Last edited by: Wizard on May 2, 2017
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
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May 2nd, 2017 at 7:23:51 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Math puzzle time!

Assuming a revolver, holding six bullets is used, rotating the chamber before each pull, what is the probability the one to go first dies?

The way you wrote it, the answer is 100%.



I assume you're talking about a typical six-shooter with only one of the six chambers loaded, and the barrel is spun with what looks like a random result.

The knee-jerk answer would be, duh, 1 in 6.

Of course, since Mike is asking, the answer obviously isn't 1 in 6.

So, recalling that Mike recently posted about biased coin flips, I'll bite that he read about this somewhere. In short:

Someone playing would load the top most chamber, so that when the barrel is closed, the bullet is in position to fire.

I seem to think that a barrel needs to be turned while loading. If so, that adds to the probability that the single bullet is usually loaded into a specific position. Possibly the firing position.

Now on to the 'random' spin.

A roulette wheel, or big six wheel, is designed to have minimal friction and a truly random spin duration. A gun barrel? Not so much.

I'm betting that the article Mike read said there is a huge bias in a gun barrel spin for a non-whole number of rotations, making the odds of dying on the first try much lower than 1 in 6.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Romes
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May 2nd, 2017 at 8:50:02 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Wow. What I'm confused about sort of, is, why would the undercover cop haggle her on the price? Perhaps I don't understand how undercover anti-prostitution cops or w/e work. But if it were a drug bust with a dude wearing a wire, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be like, "Okay, you're offering $50k for 10 pounds of meth.....let's make it $5k for 20 pounds." then the drug dude being like, "Hmm....how about 15 pounds for $35k?" then they haggle back and forth. If anything, the undercover dude would be like, "You're offering $50k for 10 pounds, sure, let's do it" and not try to be a cheap-a** and haggle the price down.

Then again, maybe the undercover dude's natural instincts came in and he was thinking, "Nah, no way, this b**** nasty as all hell.....I'll drop the price from $100 to $25...and I'll throw in some chicken nuggets, she'll be all over that."

It's all about the law and intent. They do this for a bunch of reasons... One being they want it to be as real as possible and of course people try to save money and haggle over anything, even drugs. Two, they might let the purchase happen and take the dealer down later and try to save the undercover identity, again, needing to make it as real as possible. Three, perhaps it's known in the community that they intentionally overbid and only cops say "yeah sure okay" to the first high ball price. Four, it shows further and further thought and intent in to exactly what they're doing. There is no insanity plea when you show cognitive responses and thought processes to haggle exact prices and amounts over and over rather than a one and done discussion.

If you ever watched To Catch a Predator with Chris Hansen on MSNBC they'd always ask the guys to bring specific items when coming over. They said this furthered their case that it was a well thought out plan and that it showed exact intent because sometimes they'd show up and say "I was just here to check on her... not have sex!" but then they found the requested hand cuffs and Mikes Hard Lemonade in the car, and that spoke louder about their intent than their words.

Quote: Wizard

Math puzzle time!

Assuming a revolver, holding six bullets is used, rotating the chamber before each pull, what is the probability the one to go first dies?

I think DJT answered this correctly - The way you worded it is ambiguous. You didn't say he'd die from the game nor a gunshot and it is inevitable that we will all die one day, so 100%.

Also didn't state how many bullets were in the 6 shooter... if 6, 100%, if 0, 0%... and if 1, 1/6 = .1667%... same as a 7-out in craps. So if you have "gun influence" you can shave your odds and get a great +EV situation.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:01:06 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

The knee-jerk answer would be, duh, 1 in 6.



Yes, I meant one bullet and six chambers. I thought it was understood but two players take turns until one loses.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:51:41 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

.... two players take turns until one loses.

Oh! That's different. My response was regarding the first SHOT. I wasn't thinking about if the gun gets returned.

I assume you mean a single bullet in a six shooter, with two 'players' going back and forth until somebody dies. Well, the first player is more likely to die simply because he was first.

So, the first player has a slightly more than 50% chance of eventually dying. The question is, how much more.

Now we're talking about a straight math problem, and assumes the barrel spin is truly random.

OK. I tried to wrap my head around it, but I'm failing.

Oh, sure, I can tell you that a single person playing alone has less than 50% chance of surviving 4 shots, less than 10% chance of surviving 13 shots, and less than 1% chance for 26 shots. But which of two people dies when passing back and forth? You got me!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Romes
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:52:06 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes, I meant one bullet and six chambers. I thought it was understood but two players take turns until one loses.

"Gun influence" aside:

If we go first:
1/6 chance to lose, if not 5/6 times we'll be safe.
Other guy will have 1/5 chance to lose, 4/5 chance to pass it back to us.
Then we have a 1/4 chance to lose, 3/4 chance to pack back...
Other guy has 1/3 chance to lose, 2/3 chance to pass back.
We have 1/2 chance to lose and 1/2 chance to pass back.
Other guy dies.

It all depends if the other guy finds the bullet or not:

- If he finds the bullet on his first attempt, we only had 1/6 chance of dying going first.
- If he finds the bullet on his 2nd attempt, we had 1/6 + 1/4 chance of dying going first.
- If we don't find the bullet on our 3rd attempt, he's doomed and we have a 0% chance of dying at this point.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Romes
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:54:09 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

How about a "Craps Golden Arm Challenge"? The winner will be the shooter who totals the most rolls in three turns. The tie-breakers could be longest single shoot, most points, most hardways, etc. Easy to watch, and easy to side bet. Not easy to record video though.

What about us "don't" betters? Would be just be the opposite?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DJTeddyBear
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:57:51 AM permalink
Romes -
I'm thinking each player spins the barrel every time.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Romes
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:00:21 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Romes -
I'm thinking each player spins the barrel every time.

Ah, so with replacement essentially...

Each turn would be a 1/6, but we'll always be a 1/6 ahead of our opponent for going first. So it's going to be some fancy calculation of the probability over number of trials... + 1/6
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:03:37 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

What about us "don't" betters? Would be just be the opposite?



Hmm, I don't think that would be as fun, but maybe one of the side bets could be who makes more at the end of three turns, the Do's or the Don'ts? Of course, everyone would have to start with same buy-in.
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Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:16:01 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Romes -
I'm thinking each player spins the barrel every time.



If the other chambers are empty, the weight of the cartridge should influence the loaded chamber to end up at the bottom position. I don't think it is random.

How you hold the gun while spinning the chamber becomes very important. If you hold it sideways ("gangsta style"), allowing the cylinder to spin below the frame, then swinging it back into the locked position, I think there is a better chance of the cartridge being in the firing position, than if you were to spin the cylinder holding the frame in upright in a shooting position. The chamber with the bullet should tend to the bottom position, furthest from the firing position.

I think this only applies to swing-out cylinders. There are "break frame" models out there too, where the cylinder doesn't swing out the side.
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beachbumbabs
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May 2nd, 2017 at 12:23:59 PM permalink
I think we could stage a private challenge, with a variety of games, kind of along the lines Aye suggested. Would be best to find someone with a craps table, but could make do with just card games. 30 hands each of bacc, bj, pgp, 3cp, a couple others, everyone starts with the same br, see where we end up. No.side bets, just the base games.

As to Russian Roulette, with 1 bullet in a 6 chamber revolver, I think your odds would be slightly better going first, because spinning the chamber should put the bullet towards the bottom of the chamber to start. That assumes the chamber would not be re-spun before each shot. But either way, I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Face
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May 2nd, 2017 at 1:03:48 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux


I say we just make it a cocaine challenge.



I've a resting heart rate of 40. Bring the noise.


Quote: Ayecarumba


How you hold the gun while spinning the chamber becomes very important. If you hold it sideways ("gangsta style"), allowing the cylinder to spin below the frame, then swinging it back into the locked position, I think there is a better chance of the cartridge being in the firing position, than if you were to spin the cylinder holding the frame in upright in a shooting position. The chamber with the bullet should tend to the bottom position, furthest from the firing position.



But what dominance is he?

A righty's natural wrist turn would be anti-clockwise, as is a revolver's (or at least all of mine). This would make any weight influence to favor the post fire position, aka further from the chamber. It would only put it closer if the gangsta was a lefty

Cocaine and guns. Thanks y'all for making me feel relevant again =)

Quote: Aye

I think this only applies to swing-out cylinders. There are "break frame" models out there too, where the cylinder doesn't swing out the side.



Don't forget your cowboy shooters (single action). Those don't break OR swing, and can't be spun =)


Add on: In a quick test of a double action S&W 442 loaded with one round of +P, given a random spin from random locations, the lone round rested on the bottom most half of the wheel 22 out of 30 times.
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Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 3:01:06 PM permalink
To further clarify the question, yes, the barrel is spun before each shot. It is spun in a manner (I assume facing straight up) so that every chamber, whether a bullet is inside or not, has an equal chance. Again, the players take turns until one dies.

In yet other words -- exactly like how they played in the Dear Hunter.

Please put answers in spoiler tags.
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Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 3:46:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Math puzzle time!

Assuming a revolver, with six chambers and one bullet, rotating the chamber before each pull, what is the probability the one to go first dies?



The odds of dying are one in six on each pull, but Player B "acts last" so like a BJ dealer, has an edge since Player A blowing his brains out ends the game. It's like the two players are taking turns rolling a die, and the first one to roll a 1 loses. I don't know the math, but it is not 50/50. All other things being equal, the second player has to have a small edge.
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RS
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May 2nd, 2017 at 3:58:02 PM permalink
My Wrong math probably shows first dude got a 50% chance of death. Remember if he lives, the other dudes chances of death are greater. Also, it's the same thing in reverse.

(1/6) + ((5/6) * (4/5) * (1/4)) + ((5/6) * (4/5) * (3/4) * (2/3) * (1/2))
ThatDonGuy
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May 2nd, 2017 at 4:10:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Math puzzle time!

Assuming a revolver, with six chambers and one bullet, rotating the chamber before each pull, what is the probability the one to go first dies?



One of three things will happen:
1. The first player dies; there is a 1/6 = 6/36 chance of this happening.
2. The first player lives, and the second player dies; there is a 5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 chance of this happening.
3. Both live, in which case, we are back at the beginning.

The probability of the first player dying is 6 / (6 + 5) = 6/11.

Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 4:12:37 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


One of three things will happen:
1. The first player dies; there is a 1/6 = 6/36 chance of this happening.
2. The first player lives, and the second player dies; there is a 5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 chance of this happening.
3. Both live, in which case, we are back at the beginning.

The probability of the first player dying is 6 / (6 + 5) = 6/11.



Thank you! That is correct. Good explanation too. Add one to the very large number of beers I owe you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 4:53:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: ThatDonGuy


One of three things will happen:
1. The first player dies; there is a 1/6 = 6/36 chance of this happening.
2. The first player lives, and the second player dies; there is a 5/6 x 1/6 = 5/36 chance of this happening.
3. Both live, in which case, we are back at the beginning.

The probability of the first player dying is 6 / (6 + 5) = 6/11.



Thank you! That is correct. Good explanation too. Add one to the very large number of beers I owe you.



Will it change in subsequent rounds if: 1) the game is played until someone dies, or 2) the game is played for a maximum of 10 rounds?
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RS
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May 2nd, 2017 at 5:10:37 PM permalink
Oh. I missed the "rotates every round" part.

If it didn't rotate every round....would my answer have been correct?
Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 9:55:10 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Will it change in subsequent rounds if: 1) the game is played until someone dies, or 2) the game is played for a maximum of 10 rounds?



What would happen after ten rounds?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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May 2nd, 2017 at 9:56:56 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Oh. I missed the "rotates every round" part.

If it didn't rotate every round....would my answer have been correct?



It looks correct under the assumption of not rotating the barrel. For those who don't know how revolvers work, it automatically advances one chamber after a trigger pull.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
billryan
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May 2nd, 2017 at 10:41:02 PM permalink
An AP would control the spin so it always landed back on the same spot it was previously on.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
Ayecarumba
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May 2nd, 2017 at 11:50:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Ayecarumba

Will it change in subsequent rounds if: 1) the game is played until someone dies, or 2) the game is played for a maximum of 10 rounds?



What would happen after ten rounds?


Survivors are released. The basis of the question is the odds have to favor someone getting the bullet the more rounds that are played. Does that mean the player least likely to die in round 1 is even less likely to die the longer the game goes on?
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Romes
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May 3rd, 2017 at 7:33:01 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

An AP would control the spin so it always landed back on the same spot it was previously on.

I already addressed "Gun Influence" ;-).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
RS
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May 3rd, 2017 at 7:50:07 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

I already addressed "Gun Influence" ;-).


You would like to influence another man's "gun", wouldn't you?
PokerGrinder
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May 3rd, 2017 at 8:46:27 AM permalink
Romes there seems to be a lot of hinting at your sexual preferences. Were you lying when you told me you had never done that before? I knew you were too good at that 😂
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
miplet
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May 3rd, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM permalink
Just over an hour ago, someone attempted to eat the most chicken nuggets in 3 minutes. facebook live recording
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ThatDonGuy
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May 3rd, 2017 at 11:07:30 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Will it change in subsequent rounds if: 1) the game is played until someone dies, or 2) the game is played for a maximum of 10 rounds?



"The quick answer" is:
(5/6)10 = about 16.15% of the time, nobody would die (assuming "10 rounds" means each person pulls the trigger five times).
The remaining 83.85% of the time, the first player would die 6/11 of the time, and the second would die 5/11 of the time, as already shown.
The overall probabilities are:
First player dies = 6/11 of 83.85% = 45.74%
Second player dies = 5/11 of 83.85% = 38.11%
Both players live = 16.15%

Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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May 3rd, 2017 at 11:58:29 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: Ayecarumba

Will it change in subsequent rounds if: 1) the game is played until someone dies, or 2) the game is played for a maximum of 10 rounds?



"The quick answer" is:
(5/6)10 = about 16.15% of the time, nobody would die (assuming "10 rounds" means each person pulls the trigger five times).
The remaining 83.85% of the time, the first player would die 6/11 of the time, and the second would die 5/11 of the time, as already shown.
The overall probabilities are:
First player dies = 6/11 of 83.85% = 45.74%
Second player dies = 5/11 of 83.85% = 38.11%
Both players live = 16.15%



Thank you.

...that as the number of rounds gets very large, the probabilities will approach:

Player 1 dies = 6/11
Player 2 dies = 5/11
Both players live = 0

But the state where both players live will never reach exactly 0, since there is an infinitesimal possibility that both players will avoid the bullet no matter how many rounds are played. Therefore, is the answer ~ 6/11 more accurate than 6/11 for Player 1 catching "the lead express"?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Wizard
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Wizard
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Ayecarumba
May 3rd, 2017 at 12:53:19 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

But the state where both players live will never reach exactly 0, since there is an infinitesimal possibility that both players will avoid the bullet no matter how many rounds are played. Therefore, is the answer ~ 6/11 more accurate than 6/11 for Player 1 catching "the lead express"?[/spoiler]



No, the answer is a solid 6/11. We can say that for the same reason we can say the house edge in craps is 7/495, even though, in theory, the dice could be rolled zillions of times without the bet being resolved.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
standbymyman
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May 3rd, 2017 at 12:54:25 PM permalink
Obviously not ALWAYS ahead, but never behind.
Ayecarumba
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May 3rd, 2017 at 1:15:36 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

Just over an hour ago, someone attempted to eat the most chicken nuggets in 3 minutes. facebook live recording



So the new world record is 646 grams in 3 minutes. Each nugget is approximately 17.5 g so that's only 37 in 3 minutes.

I think we've seen three or four WoV competitors who could do this.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
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