Poll

2 votes (28.57%)
4 votes (57.14%)
1 vote (14.28%)
No votes (0%)

7 members have voted

thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
July 5th, 2012 at 7:22:53 AM permalink
Also, where is Biden on the general left/right scale?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 229
  • Posts: 12724
July 5th, 2012 at 7:24:57 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The 12th Amendment is about fifteen years newer than constitution itself. That said, do you consider those writers to be the Founders?



For the most part. Jefferson was still a Founder and he was POTUS years later.

The 12th just reflected the reality of parties. After Washington left we thankfully had no single-unifying force. Had we been one-party rule we would have become Mexico before there was Mexico.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
July 6th, 2012 at 2:32:45 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Now, read the rest of the 12th Amendment:

"The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

The Senate is very much involved.



Personally, I consider the country up until 1824 as being run by the Founding Fathers, and the constitution up until the 12th amendment to be their creation. It was at this point that the country passed on to the next generation.

In the 1824 election, the multi-party system had dissolved. All four presidential candidates were running on the same party ticket. The Vice Presidential Candidate was running with the top two presidential candidates.

That is why the VP had the majority of the electoral college votes. In this particular case the Senate didn't get involved since the VP had won the election.

In the modern system, the Senate must be involved in electing the VP.

BTW: After the 1960 presidential election had a popular vote that differed by about 0.33%, and they knew they were giving D.C. the right to vote for the 1964 presidential election, you would think that would be the time to increase the size of the House by 1. If not, they should have given D.C. only 2 electoral college votes.

I violently disagree with majority of votes here that says the Senate would pick the VP candidate of Romney just for stability. The position of VP has some power, and the grim possibility of great power. Nobody gives that up easily in politics. In particular the power to settle tie votes in the Senate.

Even if the Democrats have a majority in the Senate of one vote, uou never know when an election can turn or someone can die at any time. Remember the governor can choose an interim Senator (unlike a Representative), and a Republican governor can choose a Republican senator. That would make the position of VP very important.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1419
  • Posts: 24233
July 6th, 2012 at 4:07:13 AM permalink
Weren't there times in U.S. history when we didn't have anybody as vice president?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
July 6th, 2012 at 4:22:59 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Weren't there times in U.S. history when we didn't have anybody as vice president?



There were actually 18 times that the office was vacant, and for periods that in some cases were many years. There was no provision in the constitution to fill it if it became vacant for any reason (death, ascension to the presidency, or resignation).

Most people should know the circumstances for the last 5 vacancies.

  1. Vacancy by death : April 20, 1812 - March 4, 1813
  2. Vacancy by death : November 23, 1814 - March 4, 1817
  3. Vacancy by resignation: December 28, 1832 - March 4, 1833 (John C. Calhoun resigned to enter Congress)
  4. Vacancy by ascension: April 4, 1841 - March 4, 1845
  5. Vacancy by ascension: July 9, 1850 - March 4, 1853
  6. Vacancy by death: April 18, 1853 - March 4, 1857
  7. Vacancy by ascension: April 15, 1865 - March 4, 1869
  8. Vacancy by death: November 22, 1875 - March 4, 1877
  9. Vacancy by ascension: September 19, 1881 - March 4, 1885
  10. Vacancy by death : November 25, 1885 - March 4, 1889
  11. Vacancy by death: November 21, 1899 - March 4, 1901
  12. Vacancy by ascension: September 14, 1901 - March 4, 1905
  13. Vacancy by death : October 30, 1912 - March 4, 1913
  14. Vacancy by ascension: August 2, 1923 - March 4, 1925
  15. Vacancy by ascension: April 12, 1945 - January 20, 1949
  16. Vacancy by ascension: November 22, 1963 - January 20, 1965
    .
    Constitution amended to allow the position of VP to be filled
    .
  17. Vacancy by resignation: October 10, 1973 - December 6, 1973
  18. Vacancy by ascension: August 9, 1974 - December 19, 1974


    In 1933, Franklin D. Roosevelt raised the stature of the office by renewing the practice of inviting the Vice President to cabinet meetings, which every President since has maintained. Ironically despite this raise is stature, FDR's vice president , John Nance Garner, was the first one to break from the President and become a bitter political enemy. He objected to FDR trying to pack the Supreme Court.

    Truman remarked that the job of the Vice President was to "go to weddings and funerals."

    But Nixon more or less defined the modern role as an assistant to the President, and someone who would preside over the cabinet meetings if the president was absent. Now with technology, I am sure the president can virtually be at any cabinet meeting.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
July 6th, 2012 at 6:45:44 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Truman remarked that the job of the Vice President was to "go to weddings and funerals."



I've heard the office described as "a pitcher of warm spit."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
July 6th, 2012 at 8:12:25 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I've heard the office described as "a pitcher of warm spit."



In the election of the Whig party ran two candidates William Henry Harrison for POTUS along with Francis P. Granger for VP, and Hugh Lawson White along with John Tyler for VP. Both candidates lost to Martin Van Buren and Richard M. Johnson for the Democratic party.

Van Buren received 170 votes for president, Johnson had received only 147 for vice-president. Although Virginia had elected electors pledged to both Van Buren and Johnson, the state's 23 "faithless electors" refused to vote for Johnson, leaving him one electoral vote short of a majority. For the first time before or since, the Senate was charged with electing the Vice President under the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment. The vote divided strictly along party lines, with Johnson becoming vice-president by a vote of 36 to 16 for Whig Francis Granger, with three senators absent.

Starting after this election in 1840, the presidential election began to look more modern. Each party would run a single presidential candidate paired with a single vice presidential candidate. More importantly, starting in 1840 the presidential campaign along with a "campaign slogan" was invented. The importance of the vice president as a way to get elected was established. But the nation got shocked when their elected candidate got sick on inauguration day and died a month later. Population of the country was not about 17 million.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
July 6th, 2012 at 9:27:55 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Har har har. That is the funiest thing I will hear all day,and I just got up!

On the thread, the Democrats in the Senate would elect the Democrat Candidate for VPOTUS, end of story. If you believe anything else, I have a greate roulette system I will sell you cheap.



You must have a hell of a roulette system - I'd bet any amount of money that they'd elect the GOP's candidate if the house voted for Romney. FWIW, I'd also bet that the House would elect the Big O in some tie scenarios. For example, if Obama wins Colorado's electoral votes, I think he'll also win their vote in the House despite a 4R-3D House delegation.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
July 7th, 2012 at 6:02:09 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

You must have a hell of a roulette system - I'd bet any amount of money that they'd elect the GOP's candidate if the house voted for Romney. FWIW, I'd also bet that the House would elect the Big O in some tie scenarios. For example, if Obama wins Colorado's electoral votes, I think he'll also win their vote in the House despite a 4R-3D House delegation.



I agree with you about Colorado. There will be a lot of pressure for a House delegate to vote with the popular vote of their state and not with their party affiliation.

The case of a tie electoral college vote will probably come with the Democrats winning the popular vote. Not necessarily the case, but a high probability. There might be a long drawn out battle with recounts.

The Senate might step in and elect Biden as VP just because that will make acting POTUS on January 20th. They might as well have their man in place during the lawsuits and court battles. Especially since the Democrat-majority delegations in the House can block a final decision by refusing to vote.

If the lawsuits finally settle down and Romney is elected POTUS, Biden always has the option of resigning as VP. Under the 25th amendment, Romney can nominate his choice for VP which would presumably be the same person he campaigned with.

In 2000 Washington, D.C. Elector Barbara Lett-Simmons, pledged for Democrats Al Gore and Joe Lieberman, cast no electoral votes as a protest of Washington D.C.'s lack of statehood, which she described as the federal district's "colonial status". She was not punished.

Another scenario is one in which a single elector from a city of an otherwise Republican state (like Atlanta) refuses to cast their vote for Vice President as a protest against Georgia having a winner take all system. Then the vote for POTUS would be even, but the VP vote would be in favor of Biden by one vote. Then the Senate would not have to be involved. That delegate may or may not face prosecution from the State of Georgia, but presumably that person would have lined up defense with the ACLU before making the decision to fail to cast the ballot.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 229
  • Posts: 12724
July 7th, 2012 at 6:25:57 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

You must have a hell of a roulette system - I'd bet any amount of money that they'd elect the GOP's candidate if the house voted for Romney. FWIW, I'd also bet that the House would elect the Big O in some tie scenarios. For example, if Obama wins Colorado's electoral votes, I think he'll also win their vote in the House despite a 4R-3D House delegation.



Not one democrat in the US Senate voted for impeachment of Bill Clinton despite obvious guilt of perjury. To them, it did not matter that a woman who had sued him for sexual harrassment was lied to during the discovery process, ie: perjury. They voted party lines, even with the fact that their party would still hold office. Imagine if it meant LOSING the office. Will of the people would go out the window.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

  • Jump to: