Who should pay the tip?

I wasn't sure if that was a joke.

Yeah, if you object to the sea world treats whales, you don't take a stand against them by paying to go their every day and then throwing rocks at the whales.

Quote: GWAE

My mother is a waitress. She said there are plenty of bad tippers but not many no tippers. But there are also plenty of 25% or more tippers.

What kind of restaurant?
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If I go somewhere and my bill comes to $15 ill just leave a 20.

Sometimes I'll tell them to keep the change, $2 or $3 at a Fastfood place.

If it's just me and my GF I probably wouldn't leave a $40 tip on a $200 check.
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I just happened to be at a casino the other night and the bartenders were switching over. I ordered a drink, I overheard my original bartender tell the new bartender to make it a looong poor. Obviously, I'm tipping them enough.

Quote: gamerfreak

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: RS

I was going to say the same thing, the part about Wizard admitting it was no better than a $1k bottle.

As far as whether a $1k bottle and a $40 bottle have (significant) differences, I don't really know. My guess is, all things being equal, you can probably tell the difference, if you're a wine person. But if you're not a wine person, you probably can't tell the difference. I'm not a wine person, so IDGAF.


It'd be like a non-smoker having a nasty disgusting menthol cigarette and also trying a deliciously exquisite Kamel Red. A noob isn't going to be able to tell the difference. But a true smoker will notice the menthol is nasty and how delightful Kamel Reds are.

Kamel Red

For the record, I haven't smoked a cigarette in 2-3 years.....last time I smoked a Kamel Red was at least 5 years ago, perhaps even 7 years ago. But every now and then, I still get a craving for them. They're that good. (But if I had one now, I probably wouldn't like it anymore.)

I have no doubt people can tell their favorite wine apart from crappy brands. At the time, my entire point was, "No, I don't want to share a $300(or whatever) bottle of wine, I don't like wine, IT ALL TASTES BITTER TO ME"

That's what sparked the ourtage from our "sophisticated" wine drinkers.

I didn't think Mike and our another friend could tell if it is an expensive or moderately priced bottle if given a blind taste test. For example, 3 random glasses of an $80 bottle of wine VS 1 random glass of a $500 bottle of wine(let's not get into what's considered expensive or moderately priced).

I compare wine tasting experts with betting system players and DI's.

There is a good documentary called Sour Grapes on Netflix.

I think part of it is due to diminishing returns on the price of a bottle of wine. A $20 bottle may very well taste 2x better than a $10 bottle, but I doubt many $500 bottles taste 5x better than a $100 bottle.

The markup on bottles at restaurants are also absurd. Wiz's $1k bottle may very well have been purchased for $100 or less.

2 more good wine docs are Somm and Somm: Into the Bottle which get pretty deep into professional wine tasting. I think a huge part of what actually makes those people experts is knowing all the nuances of different grape varieties and vintages, and being able to pair those with a customer's meal or personal preferences.

But they can't really tell the difference during a blind taste tests if they have the same wine dressed up in different bottles. The same person will rate the same exact wine differently.

Quote: AxelWolf

2 more good wine docs are Somm and Somm: Into the Bottle which get pretty deep into professional wine tasting. I think a huge part of what actually makes those people experts is knowing all the nuances of different grape varieties and vintages, and being able to pair those with a customer's meal or personal preferences.

But they can't really tell the difference during a blind taste tests if they have the same wine dressed up in different bottles. The same person will rate the same exact wine differently.

In terms of quality, like, "is this a good or bad wine", yes. But I'm talking grape variety, region the wine was produced, and vintage.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I wasn't sure if that was a joke.

Yeah, if you object to the sea world treats whales, you don't take a stand against them by paying to go their every day and then throwing rocks at the whales.

That statement is so ridiculous, I just have to say something. Throwing rocks at whales at Sea world is a forbidden activity that would injure animals, while 'not tipping" is an example of an individual exercising an option that he/she is given by a restaurant. Tipping is customary and I certainly do it, but it is indeed voluntary. Don't ask a question if you can't take no for an answer, and don't make tipping an optional activity if you can't accept that someone may decide not to tip.

Perhaps it was strained but the legality wasn't really the point. Just the first thing to come to mind.

The point is you don't "take a stand" by continuing to indulge yourself continuing to reward the people you think are in the wrong and then taking a dump on the people you ar supposed to be defending.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Perhaps it was strained but the legality wasn't really the point. Just the first thing to come to mind.

The point is you don't "take a stand" by continuing to indulge yourself continuing to reward the people you think are in the wrong and then taking a dump on the people you ar supposed to be defending.

if enough people took a stand by not tipping, that would work as well.

Quote: AxelWolf

What kind of restaurant?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I go somewhere and my bill comes to $15 ill just leave a 20.

Sometimes I'll tell them to keep the change, $2 or $3 at a Fastfood place.

If it's just me and my GF I probably wouldn't leave a $40 tip on a $200 check.
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I just happened to be at a casino the other night and the bartenders were switching over. I ordered a drink, I overheard my original bartender tell the new bartender to make it a looong poor. Obviously, I'm tipping them enough.

Won't name it of course on here but when we talk I will tell you if you care enough. She works at a "high end" chain restaurant. I argue with her all the time that she doesn't deserve more money for a service than a applebees waitress where my bill is 25. Her argument is they have to tip out to a bartender, cook, and busser. My argument is, that is not my problem. Tip at applebees is $5, tip at her place is $15 ish. What did they do to provide my triple service other than provide more expensive food. If I order a bottle of wine, why should my tip go up? If I order a $14 or $100 what does the server do differently for the extra $16?

Quote: 777

If the employers high standard or high expectation on tipping cannot be met, then they has MORAL (perhaps not legal, but moral) obligation to adjust the base-rate structure, or to GUARANTEE the combined min hourly base rate + tip the workers should get.

I think what you say is reasonable -- and more likely to actually be done in fact -- when the employer is a small, private company or a family-owned business. Of course, reasonable variance exists here, also.

But, I don't think it works that way for larger corporations. IMHO, in America today corporations increasingly focus on their primary mission: to return the greatest $$$ amount to their stockholders. Again, there is variance. But, far too often it seems corporations think more (and More and MORE) $$$ to the bottom line is the best course of action, regardless of how it affects their employees, the environment, or the overall country in general (such as efforts to minimize taxes that pay for the roads necessary for them to conduct business). In the short run (next quarter, this year, etc.) they are probably correct. In the long run -- if all do this -- everyone loses.

Quote: GWAE

Won't name it of course on here but when we talk I will tell you if you care enough. She works at a "high end" chain restaurant. I argue with her all the time that she doesn't deserve more money for a service than a applebees waitress where my bill is 25. Her argument is they have to tip out to a bartender, cook, and busser. My argument is, that is not my problem. Tip at applebees is $5, tip at her place is $15 ish. What did they do to provide my triple service other than provide more expensive food. If I order a bottle of wine, why should my tip go up? If I order a $14 or $100 what does the server do differently for the extra $16?

When you ask what kind of lettuce is in the salad, the waiter at Applebee's says "I don't know", the one at Morton's explains it all.

When you want a refill on your drink at Applebees, your waiter is in the back taking bong hits nowhere to be found. When you want a refill at Morton's, the waiter is already on his way to your table with said refill. Chances are, at Applebees they take your glass from you to refill it, as opposed to bringing out a fresh one like they almost certainly do at Morton's.

At the cheaper places, you get 1 set of silverware for the meal. At more expensive places, you get a new set for each course.


I'm not a huge fan of tipping (20%) on alcohol, but I don't really care either way. I also don't necessarily think tipping should increase at a 1:1 ratio from very cheap to very expensive meals.

But yes, you absolutely do get better service at more expensive restaurants, variance not included.

Quote: RS

When you ask what kind of lettuce is in the salad, the waiter at Applebee's says "I don't know", the one at Morton's explains it all.

When you want a refill on your drink at Applebees, your waiter is in the back taking bong hits nowhere to be found. When you want a refill at Morton's, the waiter is already on his way to your table with said refill. Chances are, at Applebees they take your glass from you to refill it, as opposed to bringing out a fresh one like they almost certainly do at Morton's.

At the cheaper places, you get 1 set of silverware for the meal. At more expensive places, you get a new set for each course.


I'm not a huge fan of tipping (20%) on alcohol, but I don't really care either way. I also don't necessarily think tipping should increase at a 1:1 ratio from very cheap to very expensive meals.

But yes, you absolutely do get better service at more expensive restaurants, variance not included.

Correct. You won't find an 18 year-old 1st year college student serving at Morton's like you would at Applebys. There is skill to serving, not enough. And the server to table ratio is higher at an Applebys than a Mortons.

Quote: GWAE

Won't name it of course on here but when we talk I will tell you if you care enough. She works at a "high end" chain restaurant. I argue with her all the time that she doesn't deserve more money for a service than a applebees waitress where my bill is 25. Her argument is they have to tip out to a bartender, cook, and busser. My argument is, that is not my problem. Tip at applebees is $5, tip at her place is $15 ish. What did they do to provide my triple service other than provide more expensive food. If I order a bottle of wine, why should my tip go up? If I order a $14 or $100 what does the server do differently for the extra $16?

Are the potatoes at the fancy place three times as good as Applebees? How about the steak? When you go out to eat, you should leave a 15-25% tip, as far as I am concerned. If you want to tip a server what you would tip an Applebees server, eat at Applebees.
I actually agree with you on the wine. I don't drink wine but I agree.

Quote: billryan

Are the potatoes at the fancy place three times as good as Applebees? How about the steak? When you go out to eat, you should leave a 15-25% tip, as far as I am concerned. If you want to tip a server what you would tip an Applebees server, eat at Applebees.
I actually agree with you on the wine. I don't drink wine but I agree.

The food is better but the tip is for service, not the food.

Don't get me wrong, I am a good tipper I just don't like the tipping method.

So forget the different restaurants. If I go to McCormick and Schmick and order a trout and you go and order a aged beef steak. Neither of us ask questions, we just order. Why should you pay $14 for a tip and I pay $5?, each are 20%, did the waiter do less work for me?

I regularly tip $14, you regularly tip $5. Who do you think will get better service?

Q: Is Morton ' s food 3x as good than Applebee's?

In my experience, yes. And Applebee's is not bad. Definitely a difference in service as previously noted, as well.

Quote: RS

That's exactly what taking a stand is. It is absolutely hypocritical to go to a restaurant where tipping is expected if you are of the belief tipping should be abolished.


It's 1 in 5 when AxelWolf's at dinner with 4 others. ;)

No, it's hypocritical to tip if you think tipping should be abolished. It's just in poor taste to stiff when tipping is expected.

Quote: gordonm888

don't make tipping an optional activity if you can't accept that someone may decide not to tip.

The IRS agrees with you! In fact they go into 4 possible ways tipping can definitely rub me the wrong way.

"The IRS lists four factors, all of which must be present in order for the customer’s extra payment to be deemed a tip and not a service charge [which would mean regular wages, which must be reported for payroll tax withholding]

The customer’s payment must be made free from compulsion;
The customer must have the unrestricted right to determine the amount;
The payment should not be the subject of negotiation or dictated by the employer policy; and
Generally, the customer has the right to determine who receives the payment."

Quite a few here are claiming that we tip due to notions of proper etiquette, but I blame the employers for laying this guilt trip on us gradually over about a century. As someone else mentioned, it has evolved too; so that in fact it is largely compulsive, can in fact be compulsive, the amount dictated, and the tips pooled against our wishes. All quite favorable to the employer.

quoted part from:

http://www.ncrla.org/page/GratuityTax/Internal-Revenue-Service-begins-enforcing-mandatory-gratuity-rules.htm

Aren't we all kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that if the employers increase wages paid on direct that the prices (or equivalent) are almost sure to go up?

Didn't Washington state or Seattle institute a $15/hour minimum wage law.....then bunch of people got let go because the owners couldn't support the $15/hr ?

Quote: RS

Didn't Washington state or Seattle institute a $15/hour minimum wage law.....then bunch of people got let go because the owners couldn't support the $15/hr ?

Only the people using Marijuana.

Quote: Mission146

Aren't we all kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that if the employers increase wages paid on direct that the prices (or equivalent) are almost sure to go up?

That is true but will only effect the bad tippers. I would think us 20% people may see a decrease

Quote: GWAE

That is true but will only effect the bad tippers. I would think us 20% people may see a decrease

I wouldn't be shocked if we didn't. If you're going to raise prices to keep your profit margins the same, you're usually going to overshoot rather than undershoot. Besides that, if the staff of many of these places are going to want to make the same amount of money (considering the tips they USED to get) the employers may well have to pay the employees 500% (or much more) as compared to the $2.13/hour that is required now.

I would also be inclined to assume some of the former non-tippers would stop eating at my establishment, so I think I would be inclined to increase prices by 30% almost immediately. I wouldn't have much to worry about as the other places would follow suit, most likely.

I can tell you that the pizza places win big in this scenario! They wouldn't change their pay scale at all, at least, not the ones I am aware of. The ones I am aware of the employees already make the minimum wage (or more) straight up, then they get a fixed delivery fee regardless of whether or not the customer tips and then they get the tips on top of that. Some places don't have a fixed pay-per-delivery, but many do.

Anyway, I say the pizza places win because they would have no reason to raise the prices, and I think some of the people who would be a mix of getting pizza or going to sit down restaurants would opt for pizza more often than they used to.

I've laid this out a few times so I guess once more won't hurt.

As is, people who are not morally defective get a $25 check. They think of their waitress. Nice lady. She did a good job. I'll pay her $5. Some more some less. She makes a decent living.

If the employer charged more and pays the waitress out of those prices you would see the meal for $30. But wait, the guy across the street charges $28 for the same meal.

Well food didn't get cheaper. Nor did real estate. He just found his employees would work for less money.

This is why every tipped job is better than non tipped. Market pressures are circumvented when you know your money is going to a person who is doing solid work for you. If the boss pays, you have no idea what he pays. So you're just going for the cheapest prices and he'll usually pay his workers as little as possible.

So that's how tipping creates millions of good jobs. And then those people can afford to eat out themselves or, say, lose money at poker or blackjack. Or hire you as an accountant or whatever.

That's one reason a supposed ap opposing tipping in general is moronic. The other, already pointed out, is that you'd see house edges increased and table games taken out.

Most pizza delivery fees do not go to the driver. They might get a small part of it to compensate for gas but the company keeps it.

Quote: billryan

Most pizza delivery fees do not go to the driver. They might get a small part of it to compensate for gas but the company keeps it.

Mileage varies, but thank you for bringing that up. I suppose I could have been more specific with, 'The ones I am aware of,' to say that I asked pizza drivers from three different pizza shops, but two of them are semi-independent (small franchises) and the other was a Domino's guy...but I know Domino's is franchised, so maybe that is a shop-level decision.

In all cases, they did not get the FULL delivery fee, they got $1 out of every delivery fee. One place the driver got minimum wage plus $1/delivery even though they did not charge a delivery fee. In all cases, they kept any tips.

These were all also in the same town, so when one shop started paying drivers an extra buck for delivery, maybe the others decided to follow suit for the same reason. They must do okay, I think. I know of a few guys that were delivering for the same place before I started working at the hotel I used to work at and were still delivering when I left.

I believe Dominos and Papa Johns websites state that the service fee does not go to the driver. I stopped ordering Papa Johns when they raised their service charge to $4. I actually missed it when ordering and it was only when the girl delivered the pizza did I notice it. I refused the delivery, and gave her $3 for her trouble.
I emailed my complaint and was given to free pizza coupons, which I thanked them for but refused.

The Domino's site may say that, again, I'm just going on what one Domino's driver told me. I do know that they are franchised, though, so I imagine that an individual owner can cut out a buck per delivery for the driver if he wants to do that. I can't imagine that corporate Domino's would stop a franchisee from doing that if that's what the franchisee wants to do.

It depends on what the charge is whether or not I'm willing to pay it, certainly, but I don't know how much of a difference it makes. You could just charge more for the product and have different specials that are, 'Walk-In,' only and some places certainly do have walk-in only specials. I don't know about your area, but Domino's has Walk-In Wednesday here by which any medium pizza is $3, or maybe it's $4...don't know, don't eat Domino's. I'm not a snob, but we have some quite good independent or small franchise pizza places in my area. Even Vocelli is a larger franchise that I prefer to Domino's, and they have really good online coupons if you want to order online.

Even then, I don't usually go with Vocelli's. Like I said, I live in a very fortunate area when it comes to really good independent places and small franchise places.

I'm from Long Island. More great pizza places there than the rest of the world combined, or so it seems. Not many good ones in Vegas. I eat a lot less pizza than I used to.

FYI
Resort World Manila has the policy of " no tipping allow for the dealers" .
When communist China opened therir door to foreigner to visit China, in the 70's or 80's, the workers in China will not accept tips because they thought that was their jobs and they were honor to do them ,and do them eagerly!! ( they were payed barely living wage by the government ) .

Borrowed from the $20 dollar sandwich thread.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Should be called a "$20 bribe."

Yeah, in fact, people who tip should experiment with a new tipping/bribe strategy. If you know you're going to tip X amount over a period of time when you sit down at a table game, let's say 1 hour, calculate and drop 70% of that at the beginning. Then never tip again for the hour. Savings 30%.

Will the person know you're actually shorting him/her on tips? Only if he/she reads this.

Of course, make sure there is not going to be a shift change first.

Will this work? You might even look like a hero, which is ironic I suppose.

Quote: rxwine

Borrowed from the $20 dollar sandwich thread.



Yeah, in fact, people who tip should experiment with a new tipping/bribe strategy. If you know you're going to tip X amount over a period of time when you sit down at a table game, let's say 1 hour, calculate and drop 70% of that at the beginning. Then never tip again for the hour. Savings 30%.

Will the person know you're actually shorting him/her on tips? Only if he/she reads this.

Of course, make sure there is not going to be a shift change first.

Will this work? You might even look like a hero, which is ironic I suppose.

This is how I tip housekeepers - at the beginning. Why not, if you're planning to anyway? The service you get, including anything you ask for, is outstanding.

Quote: beachbumbabs

This is how I tip housekeepers - at the beginning. Why not, if you're planning to anyway? The service you get, including anything you ask for, is outstanding.

I wouldn't do it that way only because the housekeeper who collects the tip is not necessarily the one who cleaned your room to begin with, and will not necessarily be the only one to clean your room on future days.

If I'm really impressed with the room on check-in, and I mean REALLY IMPRESSED, I usually try to get the housekeeper's name so that I can tip the one who actually made the room that way on direct. Find out what day she will work if my stay is multi-day, that sort of thing. I don't worry too much about stayover service because I never want stayover service, I just grab any accouterments (clean towels, coffee packs, cups) on an as-needed basis from the housekeeper carts during the times they are working. I don't like anybody being in my room is why.

I'm more likely to go to the effort of tipping the, 'Right,' housekeeper if I am there multiple days, but sometimes it is easier to do if you check in while they are still working...she might still be there. If I'm only staying one night, or if I consider the room cleanliness to be just average, then I'll just leave a tip when I leave the room for the last time and figure it'll balance out in the end.

Anyone who has met me in person will attest that I'm a good tipper, so it's not a money-saving measure. I don't mind to tip. I just genuinely do not like people to be in my room during my stay.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT:

I also want to acknowledge that my tip (if I give it to the housekeeper that cleaned the room PRIOR to my stay) does not necessarily reward the housekeeper for the job she may do in cleaning the room after I leave. I don't mind this for a few reasons:

1.) It won't be my room, so I don't care how she cleans it.

2.) I leave a guestroom pretty damn near spotless, anyway. Here is what I do before leaving a room:

1.) Strip the bed:

-I know that the sheets will be changed, the blanket will probably not be and the comforter almost certainly will not be. Thus, I will ball up the sheets and put them on the floor beside the chair (or equivalent) because I know they are going to laundry. The pillowcases will also be in that bundle. I will then place the pillows on the chair because the pillows are definitely staying in the room. After that, I will fold up the comforter and place it on top of the pillows because it is most likely staying in the room. Finally, I will fold up the blanket and put it on top of the comforter as it is probably staying in the room.

It also works because that is the order the stuff goes back on the bed.

2.) I will use toilet tissue to get any hairs out of the bath tub, because that is the easiest thing to use to do it. I'm not going to take a magnifying glass to it or anything, but it only takes me a few seconds to eliminate obvious hairs.

3.) I will wipe any excess water off of the bathroom sink and tub.

4.) I will place any remaining coffee stuff near the coffeemaker so that it is clear what I used and what is missing, this is so the housekeeper can easily look and see what needs replaced.

5.) I will dump any remaining ice and water out of the ice bucket and wipe it out with a hand towel, then I will return it where it was when I first got to the room.

6.) I gather up all of the garbage and throw it in the trash cans. If I have little enough garbage that it will work, I pull out all of the trashcan liners and consolidate all the trash to one bag, tie it, and put it by the dirty sheets.

The idea is that all the housekeeper will have to do is chuck the garbage, put the sheets in the dirty laundry bin, sweep the floors, make the bed(s), replace the towels/soap/shampoo/liners/coffee stuff and sweep/mop the bathroom. Some of this stuff goes out the window if I'm in a serious hurry, but I'm usually not in a serious hurry when I leave a room.

I used to work in a hotel.

If you support tippimg youre part of the problem amd society has you by the balls. People are so brainwashed that if youre a waitress etc and you stiff them, they get mad at you, but never look or question their boss one bit, when in fact its their boss who is responsible. Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society

Quote: Mission146

I leave a guestroom pretty damn near spotless, anyway. Here is what I do before leaving a room:
(List of all things Mission does deleted)

Here's my list.
1. Try to make sure all trash I throw towards the containers goes inside.
2. Make sure the toilet was flushed.

Quote: ZenKinG

If you support tippimg youre part of the problem amd society has you by the balls. People are so brainwashed that if youre a waitress etc and you stiff them, they get mad at you, but never look or question their boss one bit, when in fact its their boss who is responsible. Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? Do you not understand that the money is going to come from the customer one way or another? What did you major in when you were in college? I'm guessing it wasn't Economics.

Therefore, if you don't want to tip, that's fine, but nobody thinks you are either smart or special because of it. Rather than encouraging people NOT TO TIP you should be thanking people FOR TIPPING because us tipping keeps the prices down.

You want Blackjack rules to get worse, Mr. Counter, here's a good way to do it: Make the casino compensate the dealers more on direct. The Blackjack rules will go to Hell immediately and the game will no longer be countable. Keep encouraging people not to tip, though, if you have that little concern for your own livelihood.

The tone in many of your posts is petulant, puerile, acrimonious and your suggestions are often absurd. I say nothing about you as a person, because that would be an insult. I speak only to your posts.

Quote: rxwine

Here's my list.
1. Try to make sure all trash I throw towards the containers goes inside.
2. Make sure the toilet was flushed.

That's more than many do...

Quote: beachbumbabs

This is how I tip housekeepers - at the beginning. Why not, if you're planning to anyway? The service you get, including anything you ask for, is outstanding.

It obvious housekeepers are getting tipped too much if they can get a credit line of 6.4 million dollars and lose that in just a few days.

Quote: ZenKinG

If you support tippimg youre part of the problem amd society has you by the balls. People are so brainwashed that if youre a waitress etc and you stiff them, they get mad at you, but never look or question their boss one bit, when in fact its their boss who is responsible. Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society

1. What Mission said.

2. I don't have balls.

3. I worked as a maid for 1 summer, when I was 14. I worked as a waitress/cocktail for most of 9 years so I could do the other stuff I was doing, which didn't pay.

Those. Jobs. Suck.

Especially the maid thing. Yeah, I want to clean up bloody and teabagged sheets, used condoms and sanitary products, public hairs, clogged toilets, and miscellaneous litter from strangers. Not. I didn't even know what a condom WAS until I found one, used, in the medicine cabinet, and asked my older brother.

You'd better believe those people earn their tips, though I'm talking about grind restaurants, not a top dollar place.

Tipping must have been different in the fourties and fifties, because my dad always said the tip is supposed to be based on the total before drinks and tax. It's funny the servers believed if someone can't afford to tip the person can't afford the meal/drink.

I have no first hand experience with the expensive routines of tables/bottle service, but remember a reality show somewhere where 20 somethings were making hundreds and thousands a night serving, and thought they deserved it. It's not like they could make that income anywhere else or there if they were 40 or 50, unable to sell a slight chance at nill odds of banging them. Think the job was a Vegas pool scene with cabanas, etc. What was even funnier was there were people taking their share of the con for granted by not showing up and calling off.

Quote: Mission146

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? Do you not understand that the money is going to come from the customer one way or another? What did you major in when you were in college? I'm guessing it wasn't Economics.

Therefore, if you don't want to tip, that's fine, but nobody thinks you are either smart or special because of it. Rather than encouraging people NOT TO TIP you should be thanking people FOR TIPPING because us tipping keeps the prices down.

You want Blackjack rules to get worse, Mr. Counter, here's a good way to do it: Make the casino compensate the dealers more on direct. The Blackjack rules will go to Hell immediately and the game will no longer be countable. Keep encouraging people not to tip, though, if you have that little concern for your own livelihood.

The tone in many of your posts is petulant, puerile, acrimonious and your suggestions are often absurd. I say nothing about you as a person, because that would be an insult. I speak only to your posts.

Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Tipping must have been different in the fourties and fifties, because my dad always said the tip is supposed to be based on the total before drinks and tax. It's funny the servers believed if someone can't afford to tip the person can't afford the meal/drink.

I have no first hand experience with the expensive routines of tables/bottle service, but remember a reality show somewhere where 20 somethings were making hundreds and thousands a night serving, and thought they deserved it. It's not like they could make that income anywhere else or there if they were 40 or 50, unable to sell a slight chance at nill odds of banging them. Think the job was a Vegas pool scene with cabanas, etc. What was even funnier was there were people taking their share of the con for granted by not showing up and calling off.

I worked enough in the industry to understand. First of all as I have said before it really doesn't matter if you give bad or good service your gonna average so much per year on your total sales. I suppose you might be able to change the numbers to swing 5% or so if you always give great service or bad service. If your gonna give horrible service all the time you might get enough complaints to get in some trouble or fired so that might not work out so well. Most people understand that tipping is supposed to be before tax and that drinks usually don't count as much as food. All of this doesn't matter I find that if your going to tip 15% of the total it will work out to the same as 20% of the subtotal. The math might not work perfect but it is close. As I have stated before getting stiffed isn't so bad because you have someone else tipping 30%. Most workers will cry about it but I never cared if you stiffed me or over tipped me because I was most likely quitting tomorrow anyway. I have quit many jobs during service.

Quote: ZenKinG

If you support tippimg youre part of the problem amd society has you by the balls. People are so brainwashed that if youre a waitress etc and you stiff them, they get mad at you, but never look or question their boss one bit, when in fact its their boss who is responsible. Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society

Nobody can make anyone feel guilty. Guilt comes from within and it is most likely your already feeling guilty before anyone has influenced you. This guilt you talk of is already buried inside of oneself most likely and it has nothing to do with tipping or not tipping it is something deeper than this trivial subject of tipping.

You must have never worked a job that has tipping involved. If you have worked as a server or bartender or dealer you wouldn't have this line of thinking. If you keep on this line of thought and way of life you will never be able to take a job that involves tipping. If you do you will have to refuse all tips that are given to you or you will have a conflict of interest. If they pool the tips and put it on your check you will have to refuse this as well or give it back to your employer. I am not sure what your so upset about. You don't want to work a regular job. You don't want to use your education. You don't want to live close to your family. You don't want to enjoy being in Vegas and a Professional AP. You don't enjoy where you live and the insects that bite you. You don't want to ever tip any person ever again. I'm not sure why you live in the USA... this country has a culture of tipping and it isn't going to change in your lifetime but you could move to other countries that refuse tipping, they do have those you know? I'm not sure what is wrong but it is pretty clear your pissed off at the world but so was I for a long time... probably still am in some ways. It is tough for me to imagine how you would ever get paid large jackpots or sit there playing any game never tipping and how you explain how it's societies fault that you don't tip to the people your not tipping when society hasn't changed yet to warrant such behavior. It must be tough for you to go to an expensive dinner and watch someone pay for your dinner and cover a 20% tip... that must sting or needle you!? Vegas is pretty good at sucking the Joy or Life out of people but you may have already moved here defeated in some way... the good news is that it will get worse for you most likely so cheer up pal! I'm not your pal....buddy! I'm not your buddy... friend! I'm not your friend... guy! I'm not your guy... buddy! I'm not your buddy... pal! Well... I'm not your friend... buddy!

Quote: ZenKinG

Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up

No one ever said they have that low of profit margin but they sure are not going to make less money than before, especially if they are a public company where earnings per location are that important.

Quote: ZenKinG

Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up

I'm plenty awake, I have a fundamental grasp on both Microeconomics and reality.

Okay, first you say I have no idea what I am talking about, and then you say they WILL use increasing the wages as an excuse to raise prices and change the Blackjack rules...but your counter assertion is that everyone will stop eating out and playing and the prices would go back down to where they were before.

The first thing that I am going to do is pretend, for your benefit, that your proposition is not completely ridiculous.

Okay, so let's say that prices DO go up and playing conditions DO get worse, but only temporarily. How does that not cost you EV? If the average Blackjack conditions out there are worse, for just one day, that costs you EV. If it stays the same at some places and not others, then you have a smaller number of casinos at which you could get a good game, you increase your exposure at those and risk getting tossed. If you get formally 86'ed, then you can't go back, and THAT costs you EV.

You want conditions to either get better or stay the same, you don't want them to get worse, not even for a day.

The second thing I am going to do is explain WHY your proposition is completely ridiculous.

Your proposition is absurd because Blackjack rules have changed for the worse already WITH LITTLE OR NO REASON OR EXCUSE FOR THEM TO DO SO and they have not returned to where they were at as little as a few years ago. 6:5 Blackjack is all over the place, and people are playing it, and those tables are making money. Do you see that many Strip casinos who have rolled out 6:5 Blackjack at the lower limits who have then changed their minds? Me either.

Furthermore, if your average tab when you dine out is $40 and it goes up to, say, $48-$52 is that going to completely prevent you from going to that restaurant. Maybe. However, what will happen is that you will go to a different restaurant who is now around that $40 price point that used to be at a $30 price point before wages went up. Furthermore, MOST PEOPLE who previously tipped would not be tipping the waitress anymore, so that $47.20 (cost on $40) after tip assuming 18% is now just $48-$52, so their costs have gone up, but not by much.

See that, depending on the price increase the cost the TIPPING customer pays only goes up a little, anyway. $47.20 with a tip on a $40 check, or $48-$52 check with no tip assuming a price increase of 20-30%.

This really isn't difficult stuff. We might have covered this in Middle School Business Management, now that I think about it. Certainly before we got out of high school.

Therefore, the TIPPERS have very little reason to discontinue eating at that establishment, because their costs have gone up very little and perhaps not at all. In my case, I tend to tip 30-40%, so anything less than a 30% increase in direct costs (assuming no tipping) is actually doing me a favor.

Cost increases hurt you, however, because you do not tip. If it was once $40, now it is $48-$52 so that's what you pay if you want to eat there. Your $40 will otherwise get you what used to be $32-$35, elsewhere.

See, the tippers supplement the wages which keeps the costs down. That was my original point. Egro, the tippers are doing you a favor.

Here's an Introduction to Business Management homework question for you:

The cost of a Ford Model T was about $300 in 1925, if Ford had continued to make the Model T to present day and had never raised the price of the Model T regardless of what happened to their manufacturing/distribution/overhead and wage costs, would Ford still be in business today? (Yes or No)

Please have your answer on my desk prior to our next session. Class dismissed.

Quote: ZenKinG

I Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society

They have you by the horizontal and vertical as well ZK. Manipulation isn't very difficult... your being manipulated many times over on this very forum and so am I. Manipulation is just part of life... get used to it.

Quote: Mission146

I don't worry too much about stayover service because I never want stayover service, I just grab any accouterments (clean towels, coffee packs, cups) on an as-needed basis from the housekeeper carts during the times they are working.

I understand that you might prefer no one be in your hotel room, ever, for any reason. And, you explain very well steps you take to minimize the workload of cleaning staff. Hmmmm... I might start doing that myself on days I check out. Especially since my friend has largely convinced me not to tip cleaning staff (for many reasons previously mentioned).

But, hold on a minute! You work in the business, right? One of my first jobs was as an assistant to the maintenance man for a (fairly) large motel (and long before anyone ever tipped housekeeping staff). My understanding -- recognizing things could have changed over the last 50 years -- is that one should NEVER help oneself to materials on the housekeeper carts (when the housekeeper is not there to note what you took) because they are often responsible for the inventory they take out each morning and bring in each evening.

It's one thing to see the housekeeper and say you need more coffee and another towel for room XXX. However, (from my experience) it's quite another thing altogether to filch it without the housekeeper being aware. At least, that is what I was always given to understand. Maybe it's different where you work. Maybe it's different throughout the industry today.

You work in the business, so 'splain yerself, young man. Am I some misguided old fuddy-duddy? (Of course I am, but maybe or maybe not with specific reference to this issue, OK?) Or, do hotels do things different today than before? If the housekeeper isn't personally responsible for the cleaning cart inventory, I sure want to know. Please take a moment for some just-in-time education of a thoroughly confused long-time traveler. Many thanx.

Quote: LuckyPhow

I understand that you might prefer no one be in your hotel room, ever, for any reason. And, you explain very well steps you take to minimize the workload of cleaning staff. Hmmmm... I might start doing that myself on days I check out. Especially since my friend has largely convinced me not to tip cleaning staff (for many reasons previously mentioned).

I still tip them, I prefer to actually tip the person who made my room the way it was as opposed to the person cleaning up after me, though. Like I said, if it's just average in cleanliness or I am just staying one night, I'll leave my tip the following day.

Quote:

But, hold on a minute! You work in the business, right? One of my first jobs was as an assistant to the maintenance man for a (fairly) large motel (and long before anyone ever tipped housekeeping staff). My understanding -- recognizing things could have changed over the last 50 years -- is that one should NEVER help oneself to materials on the housekeeper carts (when the housekeeper is not there to note what you took) because they are often responsible for the inventory they take out each morning and bring in each evening.

I used to work in the hotel industry.

I've never worked in a hotel in which we logged the inventory from the housekeeping cart used, only time we would do that is if there was so much missing that it was clear materials were being stolen. Besides that, I didn't include it, but figured it went without saying that I tell the housekeeper what I am taking. If I take towels, I usually also give her the dirty ones or ask where to put them. Sometimes I even give her a dollar, even though she isn't really doing anything.

Quote:

It's one thing to see the housekeeper and say you need more coffee and another towel for room XXX. However, (from my experience) it's quite another thing altogether to filch it without the housekeeper being aware. At least, that is what I was always given to understand. Maybe it's different where you work. Maybe it's different throughout the industry today.

If she's in a room cleaning, I just tell her what I am taking. You know that they generally leave the doors propped open when they are cleaning, in most places. I figure just taking it saves her from having to pause at whatever she is doing to get me stuff. I'm probably also one of the only people that does this, anyway. I can't imagine a hotel counting coffee packets when the housekeeper gets back, or stuff like that!

Quote:

You work in the business, so 'splain yerself, young man. Am I some misguided old fuddy-duddy? (Of course I am, but maybe or maybe not with specific reference to this issue, OK?) Or, do hotels do things different today than before? If the housekeeper isn't personally responsible for the cleaning cart inventory, I sure want to know. Please take a moment for some just-in-time education of a thoroughly confused long-time traveler. Many thanx.

I don't know about the industry, I've worked in three hotels (managed two of those) and I never held the housekeepers accountable or really paid attention unless it became clear we were dropping inventory in a serious hurry. Actual cases of stuff were kept in a locked room(s) and a housekeeper could have one case of anything at any given time on the cart. If a housekeeper goes through 1,000 coffee condiment packs in three days, then I know there is some stealing going on, and I'll narrow that down.

We kept an inventory of towels, too, of course. I would know how many towels are out at any given time, and since everything is three PAR stock, it's not really that hard to keep track. (In other words, enough of each kind of towel to stock every room three times) Housekeepers had to report any towels that needed to be thrown away, or the laundry guy, or whoever did laundry, and we kept track of those. They're actually expensive.

About once a month I would count the number of towels that were out after making sure every room was fully stocked (so I should have everything to stock every room fully x2) and see what was missing compared to the, "Not Salvageable," list. Not Salvageable linens just became cleaning rags and what have you. Usually ripped or stained. As long as what I had in inventory was pretty close to what I should have in inventory (you figure a few things will get put in Not Salvageable without a record being made AND you figure guests will steal some stuff...also, you'd be SHOCKED at how many people flush washcloths!!!) then everything was fine.

And, honestly, if a housekeeper needed two sets of towels for home because she couldn't afford towels I would just tell her to take them (if she asked) and would reimburse the hotel personally and at cost.

MORE RESTAURANT STUFF

I'm going to get into this in more detail because I cannot comprehend how someone could have the audacity, the unmitigated gall, to suggest that if employee costs were to go up dramatically that the prices would not go up in the meantime.

Let's play a little game called, 'Applebee's in Bloomington, Illinois.' I have never been to the Applebee's in Bloomington, Illinois, but I'm sure it is just lovely. They are open 11a-12a every day, but they keep it open until 1a on Fridays and Saturdays.

I called this Applebee's to determine how many servers are working right now at this 8:53p.m. CST and have been informed that there are two presently working. Since Sunday is not a terribly busy night for most restaurants, I'll assume that there are always about two servers working at this time.

I bet you the schedule for every day looks something kind of close to this:

Server A: 11a-7p
Server B: Noon-8p
Server C: 2-10p
Server D: 4p-Midnight

Now, you're probably going to have more servers on the weekends, but I am going to pretend you won't, other than adding in the two weekend hours.

With my schedule above, you notice that all servers are there for the busiest dinner hours, and at least two servers are there all the way up until 10p, and then we drop down to one. We also open the restaurant with just one server. This is bare minimum staffing.

That's a total of 32 labor hours per day, and 34 on weekends, because of the extended hours. That's 228 labor hours per week. I imagine that it's much more than that, but for simplicity, I am assuming weekends are essentially the same schedule.

Okay, so you have 228 * 52 or 11,856 labor hours per year.

Illinois law is actually higher than most states in that employers must pay tipped employees at least $4.95/hour, many states are lower than that.

Imagine if the employees make $10/hour after tips, and obviously, have no desire to work for less than that. They probably make more, but we'll ignore that, we'll pretend it comes out to an average of $10/hour. Minimum wage is $8.25/hour.

If the employer decides to pay my theoretical bare minimum staff $10/hour, then labor costs will go up:

11,856 * 5.05 = $59,872.80 in direct labor costs per year. Of course, that doesn't include FICA matching costs (which also go up) or anything along those lines.

If the employer must pay minimum wage on direct, then it goes up:

11,856 * 3.30 = $39,124.80 in direct labor costs per year, again, not counting the additional taxes.

What would make any reasonable person conclude that an individual restaurant is going to just absorb a reduced bottom line of 40k-60k per year without increasing the prices? How could anyone possibly reach that conclusion?

Applebee's had 4.42B in sales last year across all restaurants according to:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/222402/applebees-us-franchise-sales/

They have 2,016 total restaurants, so:

4,420,000,000/2016 = $2,192,460

The average restaurant does $2,192,460 in annual sales, by mean average. That is not profits, that is sales.

So the suggestion that they would incur additional costs that constitute:

40000/2192460 = 0.01824434653 1.82443% of total sales.

OR

60000/2192460 = 0..02736651979 or 2.7367% of total sales

Without raising prices is so absurd as to not even merit consideration.

Look at the costs: Wages, Salaried Employees, Utilities, Property Lease, Food, Beverages, Tables, Chairs, Equipment, Cooks, Custodial, Franchise Fees etc. etc.

Does anybody know how thin the margin is for a restaurant? A profitable one? Because I happen to have a general idea.

...They don't make a lot.

It's a very small margin industry.

So, to suggest that a restaurant is going to take a 40k-60k hit in costs without increasing prices is so absurd as to not even merit consideration, and yet here I am talking about it.

I mean, they take a minimum of 7.75% in Gross Sales from the franchise:

http://www.franchisedirect.com/foodfranchises/applebees-franchise-07406/ufoc/

Then, they get 8.65% of all redeemed Gift Cards. Bunch of other costs, too.

And, again, I made some EXTREMELY conservative assumptions about the total hours per week. They probably have two or three extra servers on the weekends.

Quote: Mission146

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? .

I have to disagree. Quality or service may go down, but prices don't necessarily go up. Walmart and McDonalds being two examples.

I'm sure there are also counter examples but just pointing out it does not necessarily follow.

I mean I'd actually be surprised if either of those companies became even more of a bargain to the customer if they converted to tipping.

Maybe you wouldn't wait in a line as long and food and service would be better. Maybe more smiles.

Cheaper because of tipping? I doubt it.

edited for last line

Quote: Mission146

I'm plenty awake, I have a fundamental grasp on both Microeconomics and reality.

Okay, first you say I have no idea what I am talking about, and then you say they WILL use increasing the wages as an excuse to raise prices and change the Blackjack rules...but your counter assertion is that everyone will stop eating out and playing and the prices would go back down to where they were before.

The first thing that I am going to do is pretend, for your benefit, that your proposition is not completely ridiculous.

Okay, so let's say that prices DO go up and playing conditions DO get worse, but only temporarily. How does that not cost you EV? If the average Blackjack conditions out there are worse, for just one day, that costs you EV. If it stays the same at some places and not others, then you have a smaller number of casinos at which you could get a good game, you increase your exposure at those and risk getting tossed. If you get formally 86'ed, then you can't go back, and THAT costs you EV.

You want conditions to either get better or stay the same, you don't want them to get worse, not even for a day.

The second thing I am going to do is explain WHY your proposition is completely ridiculous.

Your proposition is absurd because Blackjack rules have changed for the worse already WITH LITTLE OR NO REASON OR EXCUSE FOR THEM TO DO SO and they have not returned to where they were at as little as a few years ago. 6:5 Blackjack is all over the place, and people are playing it, and those tables are making money. Do you see that many Strip casinos who have rolled out 6:5 Blackjack at the lower limits who have then changed their minds? Me either.

Furthermore, if your average tab when you dine out is $40 and it goes up to, say, $48-$52 is that going to completely prevent you from going to that restaurant. Maybe. However, what will happen is that you will go to a different restaurant who is now around that $40 price point that used to be at a $30 price point before wages went up. Furthermore, MOST PEOPLE who previously tipped would not be tipping the waitress anymore, so that $47.20 (cost on $40) after tip assuming 18% is now just $48-$52, so their costs have gone up, but not by much.

See that, depending on the price increase the cost the TIPPING customer pays only goes up a little, anyway. $47.20 with a tip on a $40 check, or $48-$52 check with no tip assuming a price increase of 20-30%.

This really isn't difficult stuff. We might have covered this in Middle School Business Management, now that I think about it. Certainly before we got out of high school.

Therefore, the TIPPERS have very little reason to discontinue eating at that establishment, because their costs have gone up very little and perhaps not at all. In my case, I tend to tip 30-40%, so anything less than a 30% increase in direct costs (assuming no tipping) is actually doing me a favor.

Cost increases hurt you, however, because you do not tip. If it was once $40, now it is $48-$52 so that's what you pay if you want to eat there. Your $40 will otherwise get you what used to be $32-$35, elsewhere.

See, the tippers supplement the wages which keeps the costs down. That was my original point. Egro, the tippers are doing you a favor.

Here's an Introduction to Business Management homework question for you:

The cost of a Ford Model T was about $300 in 1925, if Ford had continued to make the Model T to present day and had never raised the price of the Model T regardless of what happened to their manufacturing/distribution/overhead and wage costs, would Ford still be in business today? (Yes or No)

Please have your answer on my desk prior to our next session. Class dismissed.

If they try and raise prices or make blackjack unplayable, then everyone needs to stop going to these places until they revert back to what is normal because theres no need for them to do it other than greed. The power still lies with the people. Watch how fast they react when no one starts playing or visiting their store.

Also keep your posts about this in one single thread. Im not gonna go back and forth and read your lectures.