Who should pay the tip?
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33 members have voted
Quote: RSWe are also one of the three (I believe) countries to use English units, or whatever you call the measurement system where you use inches, feet, etc. instead of those stupid "meters" or "grams".
If I have a $100 meal and tip $20 to make the total $120, how is that any different than purchasing the same meal with a 20% service charge, totaling $120? It is the exact same thing, except I cannot tip less if I got sh** service. Not to mention, if this did start up, different places would likely have a higher service charge....some places would probably start charging 25% or 30%!
And why is there the conception this is not "fair"? Until I started hanging out with gamblers, I'd never met anyone who would say how unfair tipping is or that it should be abolished. Relatively, few people think tipping is unfair. When someone gets a job at a restaurant, casino, etc. they realize a small amount of their income will come from their base hourly wage but most of it comes from tips. Hell, I think oftentimes strippers have to pay the strip club in order to work.
OMG, you misread my post AGAIN. You sure want me to start a lack of reading comprehension discussion again. Do you really? All I can say is I was raised to be truthful, and I was speaking the truth, but sadly, my belief in “honesty is the best policy” was summarily and dictatorially censored.
Perhaps I should start a threat about metric system, but then it would require a high level of reading comprehension... Nah, I don't think it is a good idea.
Now, let’s get back to the “tip” discussion topic. I don’t recall of stating explicitly that tipping by itself is unfair, but I did allude to the fact that our current tipping system would create a bad unintended consequence because it gives the employers the excuse to underpay or unfairly under compensate their workers. I have no objection of paying extra for goods and services in lieu of tipping, and I would consider the threat of higher service charge by any business as an empty threat because of our highly competitive capitalist system.
The current tipping system is bad because of unequal, insufficient, or lack of tip often can create friction between the workers and the customers. Who is at fault here -- the employers or their patrons, or both? I say it is the employer's fault. If lack of tipping or inadequate tipping is a problem, then why didn't the employers take corrective actions to adjust the worker's compensation & benefit?
I had on many occasions given tips on the face of bad services, but I did it out of compassion, and why do I have to do this out of compassion? Whose responsibility is it to take good care of the workers? With regard to your “bad service” concern, there are many ways employers can improve “bad service” by ways of disciplinary action, training, profit sharing, bonus, or other form of compensation and benefit programs to motivate their workers. And if a worker provides a sh** service as you alluded to, then a threat of 40 hours class learning those stupid “meters” or “grams” as a disciplinary action would be sufficient to motivate bad behaving worker to behave nicely.
Quote: ZenKinGQuote: RSWe are also one of the three (I believe) countries to use English units, or whatever you call the measurement system where you use inches, feet, etc. instead of those stupid "meters" or "grams".
If I have a $100 meal and tip $20 to make the total $120, how is that any different than purchasing the same meal with a 20% service charge, totaling $120? It is the exact same thing, except I cannot tip less if I got sh** service. Not to mention, if this did start up, different places would likely have a higher service charge....some places would probably start charging 25% or 30%!
And why is there the conception this is not "fair"? Until I started hanging out with gamblers, I'd never met anyone who would say how unfair tipping is or that it should be abolished. Relatively, few people think tipping is unfair. When someone gets a job at a restaurant, casino, etc. they realize a small amount of their income will come from their base hourly wage but most of it comes from tips. Hell, I think oftentimes strippers have to pay the strip club in order to work.
Problem with your logic is youre missing one huge point. The restaurants and other tip related industries like casinos are making a hefty profit on their product. Not paying their workers and trying to push that reaponsibility on its customers is a complete joke and milking of the system to get away with not paying their workers.
You think a restaurant charging you $20-$30 bucks for a 8 oz. Steak and some mashed potatoes and veggies is not making a good profit on that? Lets get real. Just like the casino has the edge on every game, every restaurant marks up their food to make a nice profit on each sale. There would be NO need for them to raise their food prices 25-30% just because they have to pay their waiters 10 an hour now.
Give me a break, but guess what, you can bet the farm that resraurants will use that excuse to then raise their food prices 25-30% even though it makes no logical sense since they are already making a good proift on their products. And you wanna know the even more pathetic part; society would agree with the notion that the restaurant should raise their food prices because they have been conditioned their whole life that tipping is a must and if the restaurant now has to pay their workers a fair wage, raising food prices makes sense. LOL. Sad times
Maybe you should take that 40 or 50k the casinos haven't stolen from you yet and open a restaurant since it seems to be another field you are an expert in. You have the labor and food margin aspects down so the rest should be easy. If you need a few leads I can provide you with a couple that are on the market in the Vegas area. Easy money, much easier than dealing with the mob run casinos. You'll double your money in months, easily with your knowledge of the industry.
Quote: DRichI would estimate about once a year I leave no tip but I always explain to the server why I am not tipping. I don't know if that makes it better or worse, but it makes me feel better that I explained it.
I've worked enough in the F&B industry to chime in. I would say that it is 1000 X worse if your not going to tip and take the time out to explain to me why you aren't leaving a tip. Talk about salt in the wound. Not that it matters to me though. I know for a fact that no matter how good or bad the service I gave I was always going to average a certain amount every year no matter what. Perhaps if I was going to be someone always going that extra mile I could of made more per year but as lazy as I am/was that wasn't in the cards. I worked at this place called "Shooters on the Water" in Cleveland Ohio during a summer. It can get to be a madhouse. I had three girls who I am guessing now that they were in the service industry. They were pretty upset about my service and left me 3 dollars with a note about how horrible my service was. I threw the note away and spent the 3 dollars on beer. I never cared or thought twice about it. Many people that day gave me 40% tips or better plus all the free food and alcohol you could drink while working. My point is if your not going to tip... just don't tip... nobody needs a sermon.
On another note I would many times leave off beers or sodas on the bills because F the establishment. Over many years in the industry not one patron ever told me that I forgot to charge them for something I didn't put on the bill. I worked these jobs from 18-22 years old while I was thinking I was going to be the next Doc Holiday or later I found out I meant Doyle Brunson... in those days I was moving from big city to big city losing all my money, playing poker or betting sports, working in Hotels and places as mentioned above. I found out that Bartenders made all the money and it was easier to skim.
Quote: monet0412. I worked at this place called "Shooters on the Water" in Cleveland Ohio for one of my first jobs during a summer.
If Shooters is in the Flats I think I have been there. I grew up outside of Cleveland. If I stiffed you, sorry, but it was deserved.
Quote: ZenKinGWe are also one of the three (I believe) countries to use English units, or whatever you call the measurement system where you use inches,
You think a restaurant charging you $20-$30 bucks for a 8 oz. Steak and some mashed potatoes and veggies is not making a good profit on that? Lets get real. Just like the casino has the edge on every game, every restaurant marks up their food to make a nice profit on each sale. There would be NO need for them to raise their food prices 25-30% just because they have to pay their waiters 10 an hour now.
Give me a break, but guess what, you can bet the farm that resraurants will use that excuse to then raise their food prices 25-30% even though it makes no logical sense since they are already making a good proift on their products. And you wanna know the even more pathetic part; society would agree with the notion that the restaurant should raise their food prices because they have been conditioned their whole life that tipping is a must and if the restaurant now has to pay their workers a fair wage, raising food prices makes sense. LOL. Sad times
50k isn't enough to open a restaurant. 7 of 10 restaurants fail. A major reason is a lack of capitalization meaning that you are opening a shop without the funds to pay yourself for three years. Profit margins at most restaurants are thin for many reasons, mostly competition and lack of customers. I've done business plans for small businesses including restaurants in my early life and the largest mistake I've seen is a lack of realistic planning. Food should cost 1/3rd of the menu item's price (or less) to be profitable. You also have to plan your labor right, market and promote, control supplies and waste, comply with regulations and food inspections. I know a few restaurant owners and their prices are linked of course to the cost of labor. Customers have to perceive value and experience for their money. And then there's competition and location, which are key and changes over time. And generally you get what you pay for. An 8oz sirloin cooked by a new line cook at Applebys will taste like crap compared to the same 8oz AAA Filet cooked by an experienced chef who knows what they are doing at a place like the Keg, Morton's or RuthChris. If you don't get what you pay for, that customer will not be back and the yelpers and various google reviewers will ruin the place.
Raising the wages will not have a 1:1 cost in price but should account for 1/3rd of a price increase. So if you raise the cost of labor by 50%, then you increase your food prices by 16%. Having legislation to raise the minimum wage evens the playing field for all labor and of course changes the budgeting such that a place that is labor intensive will be affected more than a business where the cost is mainly wrapped up in rent or food.
If I know that I am in a place where the minimum wage is much higher or the workers are getting union wages, I will tip less. For example, most dealers in Ontario are unionized. A basic dealer (Basic Dealer 1 with one year experience) in a casino in Ontario (unnamed) makes $15.+/hour + their tips. At another casino, you can see that servers are paid $14+/hour, the coat check person $15+/hour. These people make a decent living, own homes, have children, and drive cars. They support the economy and in many cities (like Windsor) are a major sector of the economy.
Quote: DRichIf Shooters is in the Flats I think I have been there. I grew up outside of Cleveland. If I stiffed you, sorry, but it was deserved.
No problem... I most likely dropped the food on the floor and put it back on your plate or had someone lick your straw or foul your drinks in some other way. I've seen cookies do all kinds of things to the food! Yes Shooters is in the Flats. My father lived back in that area and I spent years dropping in when broke to get another job. I worked a few places in the flats and around the city working my way into the Hotels like Marriot at Key Center, Renaissance, The Sheraton, Radisson and over to the Ritz Carlton. I started in Room Service which is a sweet gig because nobody can stiff you since the 18% is added to the bill automatically! I was a bartender at the Ritz and like I say if you did or someone did stiff me it wouldn't matter because I was skimming an average of 700 a week. Not to mention all the free amenities in these places. Heck we used to swipe Johnnie Blue right out of the Ritz past security that was supposed to check bags but never cared to! Good Times! Another good story is that the King of Jordan had a floor or two booked out over there for weeks and some of his people left us boxes of Cubans which it seemed they were never going to come back for. I explained that I could lock them in our humidor but we have no security for such things and they could easily be stolen. He smiled and could care less. They used to eat dinner with bricks for 100s all around them with all kinds of lady friends. I guess it didn't matter that we smoked them and sold them for 50 dollars a pop. What can you do when people like You, ZK and others on this site are stiffing us lowly servers!?
Waiters and waitresses.
Dealers.
Hotel maids.
Movers.
Bellmen.
Valets.
Cocktail servers.
Hairdressers.
Bartenders.
Courtesy drivers and shuttles.
They are providing a personal service to me. I have had several of those crap jobs. Thank you, Jesus, no more.
Sometimes the tip is just sheer relief that it's not me in that job.
People I sometimes tip:
Front desk when requesting an upgrade or special service.
Service people at my home if they've done something extra or saved me money.
Mailman and garbage crew at Christmas.
People I never tip or I undertip:
Any in the first 2 categories who do a lousy job, are uncaring, or rude..
Baristas and counter workers.
To-go pickups.
Receipts with the tip written in.
Retail sales.
Managers whether standing in or doing their job.
People I over-tip.
The guy who cheerfully and extremely quickly found and dug up my septic tank. 7 years ago, and I still remember being in awe of how easy he made that look.
The waitress who's always been friendly and recognizes me, gets extra things without asking or charging, and is working into her 9th month of pregnancy because she needs the money.
The dealer who makes the table fun, gets me on a winning streak, and then deals me a jackpot on trips or PGP fortune.
The plumber who finds the leak in the foundation ($450), explains he's not allowed to fix it (leak specialist, not repair), but tells my nephew what $3 part to buy at Home Depot and how to cut it in, rather than making me go back to the original plumber for the repair and saving me the additional $465 they planned to charge.
Etc.
It works well for me. Karma, baby.
Quote: beachbumbabs
The dealer who makes the table fun, gets me on a winning streak, and then deals me a jackpot on trips or PGP fortune.
Can you PM me when you find these dealers? I don't think you believe that a dealer could actually just put you on a winning streak through karma so I am guessing you have a dealer helping you in other ways!? I want to be at that table when the dealer is paying you when you lose or showing you hole cards or whatever they are doing to send you on this WINNING STREAK :) !! ( Just Good Old Fashioned Ribbing Here )
I don't understand Karma... it seems it only works for certain people at certain times. It certainly isn't universal. Plenty of horrible people doing horrible things not worried about Karma who never pay for it in this lifetime.
Quote: monet0412Can you PM me when you find these dealers? I don't think you believe that a dealer could actually just put you on a winning streak through karma so I am guessing you have a dealer helping you in other ways!? I want to be at that table when the dealer is paying you when you lose or showing you hole cards or whatever they are doing to send you on this WINNING STREAK :) !! ( Just Good Old Fashioned Ribbing Here )
Lol. I had one memorable PGP session at Harrah's Gulf Coast, where she dealt me 4 SF and 6 4oaks in 6 hours. Plus overall winning. I tipped 10% on the jackpots as they happened, then a black when I left, up about $3600 on $10 bets x2 hands. So about $275 in tips: she earned it.
Quote: ZenKinGAll of you can say whatever you want, but at the end of the day you are being brainwashed to this slave system in society. Not one person has yet to explain to me with sound logic why I should leave a tip. The only replies i get are morally based, but no logic attached to it and no facts to back it up why im wrong. In fact even moral arguments have no ground, because im not doing anything immoral, society just built that into your heads to feel guilty for something you shouldnt even feel guilty for.
It's societal. Casino dealers in Vegas make a median salary of $16,704 a year working full time. Look in the freaking mirror, ZenKing. You expect to make $100 / hour from counting cards which really takes no skill except for memorization and the ability to do basic math (and moan and complain about your crappy life) yet you sit across from a casino worker who, without tips, makes $8 for standing there, breathing in crappy 2nd hand smoke, taking abuse, getting carpal tunnel and back pain from dealing cards and getting sick from breathing in everyone's germs. Mind you, s/he gets a free meal / beverages and gets some benefits after a probationary period (they don't get paid for sick time).
The only reason why casino dealers are pleasant and do somewhat of a decent job are tips. If there were no tips, the jobs would be difficult to fill as there would be no one willing to stand that abuse for $8/hour and long periods of time and there would be massive turnover, so much so that CZR and MGM would likely just fill the tables with video machines and get rid of the tables outright. Or the rules would become so stiff that 3:2 blackjack would disappear and the commissions on Bac and Pai Gow would go to 10% while they paid the workers more.
My view is that people deserve a living wage if they are working full-time, period. They are working 40 hours a week, pay them at least 30K and let competition take care of prices. If you support this notion but despise tipping, do not patronize places where workers are paying sub-living wages and show up at demonstrations of workers asking to up minimum wages and support unions.
Now you don't have to feel guilty about not tipping them. Just like I don't feel guilty when I tell you that I hope you lose all your bankroll and actually understand the meaning of compassion for others when you actually have to start with nothing and don't have mommy and daddy to rely on. Actually I do feel guilty for saying that, because I only want people to succeed in life.
Quote: boymimboIt's societal. Casino dealers in Vegas make a median salary of $16,704 a year working full time. Look in the freaking mirror, ZenKing. You expect to make $100 / hour from counting cards which really takes no skill except for memorization and the ability to do basic math (and moan and complain about your crappy life) yet you sit across from a casino worker who, without tips, makes $8 for standing there, breathing in crappy 2nd hand smoke, taking abuse, getting carpal tunnel and back pain from dealing cards and getting sick from breathing in everyone's germs. Mind you, s/he gets a free meal / beverages and gets some benefits after a probationary period (they don't get paid for sick time).
The only reason why casino dealers are pleasant and do somewhat of a decent job are tips. If there were no tips, the jobs would be difficult to fill as there would be no one willing to stand that abuse for $8/hour and long periods of time and there would be massive turnover, so much so that CZR and MGM would likely just fill the tables with video machines and get rid of the tables outright. Or the rules would become so stiff that 3:2 blackjack would disappear and the commissions on Bac and Pai Gow would go to 10% while they paid the workers more.
My view is that people deserve a living wage if they are working full-time, period. They are working 40 hours a week, pay them at least 30K and let competition take care of prices. If you support this notion but despise tipping, do not patronize places where workers are paying sub-living wages and show up at demonstrations of workers asking to up minimum wages and support unions.
Now you don't have to feel guilty about not tipping them. Just like I don't feel guilty when I tell you that I hope you lose all your bankroll and actually understand the meaning of compassion for others when you actually have to start with nothing and don't have mommy and daddy to rely on. Actually I do feel guilty for saying that, because I only want people to succeed in life.
When I first started playing poker people used to always say how easy dealing was and a monkey could do a better job. When my friend taught me how to deal he would say that to me all the time as I was fumbling about. Come on man... I could train a monkey to do this job better than what your doing. Lets go monkey deal the cards lol! Tips are part of the culture. Your not going to go to another country and tell them that they are doing it wrong. Not only is tipping a part of the culture but Boymimbo makes the valid point that if you don't tip these people your just not going to have anyone dealing to you. You think the dealers are bad with the way they get paid... just see what happens if everyone decides to never tip them again. You'll have some really sharp dealers if that happens lol !!
When you tip you are tipping the individual. That money goes directly to them and not the company. Are they going to blow that money? Ofcourse but that doesn't mean you shouldn't tip them. Nowadays they got Uncle Sam in the picture and they also pool the tips. Some of these tips get pooled over to management. That is pretty ugly. I beat them at that game though but I go out of my way to get Walmart Cards and put them in a card with a sealed envelope. If you give a slot attendant a Walmart Card they aren't supposed to keep it or they have to throw it away. I am not saying they all do that but if you give someone a personalized sealed envelope they get to keep it directly. They may have to open it in front of management because if you put cash in it it will go in the pool and get taxed but if its a Walmart Card or something similar they get to keep it all to themselves and tax free. I am not saying that you have to do this but it is something I like to do so that a person doesn't have to share the tip and they don't get taxed. I have managers and hosts coming up to me all the time asking me if I need rooms or 300 dollar comps without even playing because I have made some friends over the years kicking back.
Try to remember your in "KICKBACK CITY" !!
Quote: boymimboIt's societal. Casino dealers in Vegas make a median salary of $16,704 a year working full time. Look in the freaking mirror, ZenKing. You expect to make $100 / hour from counting cards which really takes no skill except for memorization and the ability to do basic math (and moan and complain about your crappy life) yet you sit across from a casino worker who, without tips, makes $8 for standing there, breathing in crappy 2nd hand smoke, taking abuse, getting carpal tunnel and back pain from dealing cards and getting sick from breathing in everyone's germs. Mind you, s/he gets a free meal / beverages and gets some benefits after a probationary period (they don't get paid for sick time).
The only reason why casino dealers are pleasant and do somewhat of a decent job are tips. If there were no tips, the jobs would be difficult to fill as there would be no one willing to stand that abuse for $8/hour and long periods of time and there would be massive turnover, so much so that CZR and MGM would likely just fill the tables with video machines and get rid of the tables outright. Or the rules would become so stiff that 3:2 blackjack would disappear and the commissions on Bac and Pai Gow would go to 10% while they paid the workers more.
My view is that people deserve a living wage if they are working full-time, period. They are working 40 hours a week, pay them at least 30K and let competition take care of prices. If you support this notion but despise tipping, do not patronize places where workers are paying sub-living wages and show up at demonstrations of workers asking to up minimum wages and support unions.
Now you don't have to feel guilty about not tipping them. Just like I don't feel guilty when I tell you that I hope you lose all your bankroll and actually understand the meaning of compassion for others when you actually have to start with nothing and don't have mommy and daddy to rely on. Actually I do feel guilty for saying that, because I only want people to succeed in life.
First off, everyone chooses their life, if they dont like the dealer job, they can quit, yet you're trying to make me feel guilty just like i mentioned before about how society tries to make you feel guilty for not tipping. Secondly 'mommy and daddy' didnt give me a dollar growing up like many other kids. In fact my dad made me work around the house every week on top of not getting a dollar. Of course they helped me grow my bankroll by letting me stay in the house rent free and providing food for me, but the way you phrased it, you made it sound like i had it easy or something. 99% of the people in this country had the same opportunity as me but just made wrong choices and chose the wrong people to hang out with and will live the rest of their life paycheck to paycheck and not because they didnt have 'mommy and daddy'. I just made better choices than most people, thats all, not because i have some 'mommy and daddy', but yet you try to make it seem like i had it 'easy'. Of course, i also realize some people dont have anything growing up and grow up with a single mom etc and that's the 1%, im excluding them for now for arguments sake as that's an anomaly and not what we're discussing here.
I also like how you make assumptions about me without ever meeting me or knowing my life. You think i dont have compassion because of a couple posts i made on this website about tipping? Ok buddy. Im probably one of the nicest people youll ever meet. I never stole, never betrayed anyone, and always help out people whenever they need it. My only flaw is im a bit emotional at times and act crazy at times as you can see from my posts during this blackjack venture. My whole argument about this tipping is not to look down on anyone or that i dont have compassion for people making much less than me. I just dont support the structure of tipping. The funnier thing is and makes my whole point go full circle, is why are you trying to target me as the guilty one and not the employers basically making their workers like peasants and avoiding paying them more than 2 bucks an hour by milking the tipping system?
Quote: ZenKinGFirst off, everyone chooses their life, if they dont like the dealer job, they can quit, yet you're trying to make me feel guilty just like i mentioned before about how society tries to make you feel guilty for not tipping.. Secondly 'mommy and daddy' didnt give me a dollar growing up like many other kids. In fact my dad made me work around the house every week on top of not getting a dollar. Of course they helped me grow my bankroll by letting me stay in the house rent free and providing food for me, but the way you phrased it, you made it sound like i had it easy or something. 99% of the people in this country had the same opportunity as me but just made wrong choices and chose the wrong people to hang out with and will live the rest of their life paycheck to paycheck and not because they didnt have 'mommy and daddy'. I just made better choices than most people, thats all, not because i have some 'mommy and daddy', but yet you try to make it seem like i had it 'easy'. Of course, i also realize some people dont have anything growing up and grow up with a single mom etc and that's the 1%, im excluding them for now for arguments sake as that's an anomaly and not what we're discussing here.
I also like how you make assumptions about me without ever meeting me or knowing my life. You think i dont have compassion because of a couple posts i made on this website about tipping? Ok buddy. Im probably one of the nicest people youll ever meet. I never stole, never betrayed anyone, and always help out people whenever they need it. My only flaw is im a bit emotional at times and act crazy at times as you can see from my posts during this blackjack venture. My whole argument about this tipping is not to look down on anyone or that i dont have compassion for people making much less than me. I just dont support the structure of tipping. The funnier thing is and makes my whole point go full circle, is why are you trying to target me as the guilty one and not the employers basically making their workers like peasants and avoiding paying them more than 2 bucks an hour by milking the tipping system?
Actually not everyone gets to choose their life. Many people in other countries or even in this country are stuck in situations they can never get out of. You think people born with disabilities get to choose? You think people born a minority in a war zone get to choose? Some dealer in Vegas wakes up one day with Cancer and you think they get to choose? Plenty of situations where people don't get to choose. You and I are in the minority actually. You are actually ahead of the game of life playing at an advantage that most people don't have. If you don't want to tip I can appreciate that but don't try to change the whole system or post about how wrong all of us are doing it. I am ok with the system the way it is and I don't want to see it change.
Quote: monet0412Actually not everyone gets to choose their life. Many people in other countries or even in this country are stuck in situations they can never get out of. You think people born with disabilities get to choose? You think people born a minority in a war zone get to choose? Some dealer in Vegas wakes up one day with Cancer and you think they get to choose? Plenty of situations where people don't get to choose. You and I are in the minority actually. You are actually ahead of the game of life playing at an advantage that most people don't have. If you don't want to tip I can appreciate that but don't try to change the whole system or post about how wrong all of us are doing it. I am ok with the system the way it is and I don't want to see it change.
I understand that and i said the 1% and was excluding that because boyimbo was comparing someone like a dealer working a crappy job who does not have any disabilitiee or born in a war zone. If they can deal, they likely have some type of freedom. This is all besides the point anyway and has nothing to do with my initial argument of why we shouldnt tip. Why am i being targeted as the bad guy and not these greedy corporations stiffing their dealers or resturant owners stiffing their waiters? The more you guys talk, the more you guys are making my point and it all comes full circle. Society has brainwashed you guys to make me(the actual customer) to feel guilty, the customer that's already paying for the product, but not the actual owners of the business who should be the ones responsible for paying them. I didnt hire this dealer or waiter, the company did.
Quote: billryanDid you really just lump all kids growing up with single moms in the 1% group?
That was just one example of many that can fit into that 1%. Lets face it, most kids growing up without a father struggle financially. There's obviously more people that fit into the 1% as monet just mentioned, being disabled or being in a war zone etc.
Quote: ZenKinGI understand that and i said the 1% and was excluding that because boyimbo was comparing someone like a dealer working a crappy job who does not have any disabilitiee or born in a war zone. If they can deal, they likely have some type of freedom. This is all besides the point anyway and has nothing to do with my initial argument of why we shouldnt tip. Why am i being targeted as the bad guy and not these greedy corporations stiffing their dealers or resturant owners stiffing their waiters? The more you guys talk, the more you guys are making my point and it all comes full circle. Society has brainwashed you guys to make me(the actual customer) to feel guilty, the customer that's already paying for the product, but not the actual owners of the business who should be the ones responsible for paying them. I didnt hire this dealer or waiter, the company did.
You sound like some ancient King of old who says its not my fault God made me King and you my slave! These people are serving you dealing your game that your supposed to be stealing easy money from. They are cooking your food and bringing it to you on a plate. They are cleaning your tables and dishes and whatever else they are doing. Just because you are able to afford such luxury doesn't mean you shouldn't help out your fellow human. I see people on the street who have basically lost their minds not showering or able to function. It isn't hard to one day wake up and either have a stroke and lose your ability to move around or get into depression where you can't get out of. You might want to help out your fellow man who isn't doing as good as you because one day the tables might be turned around. Once again... if you don't want to tip... DO NOT TIP! My point is that your trying to hold a position or fight a battle that you will never win. You only have so much time on this earth and its slipping fast...trust that :) !!
For the record I did vote that they should stiff the waitress since they are APs but that was for my own amusement.
Quote: monet0412You sound like some ancient King of old who says its not my fault God made me King and you my slave! These people are serving you dealing your game that your supposed to be stealing easy money from. They are cooking your food and bringing it to you on a plate. They are cleaning your tables and dishes and whatever else they are doing. Just because you are able to afford such luxury doesn't mean you shouldn't help out your fellow human. I see people on the street who have basically lost their minds not showering or able to function. It isn't hard to one day wake up and either have a stroke and lose your ability to move around or get into depression where you can't get out of. You might want to help out your fellow man who isn't doing as good as you because one day the tables might be turned around. Once again... if you don't want to tip... DO NOT TIP! My point is that your trying to hold a position or fight a battle that you will never win. You only have so much time on this earth and its slipping fast...trust that :) !!
For the record I did vote that they should stiff the waitress since they are APs but that was for my own amusement.
See you're making my point once again. It's not my responsibility to help the worker, its the corpration and company's responsibilty. Also just because i dont tip doesnt mean i dont 'help out my fellow humans'. You're trying to lump it all into one saying that just becasue i dont tip means im some grumpy dude who doesnt help out anyone, which is completely untrue. You're falling victim again to this societal notion that the customer is somehow required to tip these workers. Go cry to the corporation and business, not me. I should not feel one bit guilty of not tipping and neither should anyone. These workers should be looking at their boss with anger, not at me. I already did my part in ordering a marked up priced steak and fed the business with profits. I already came into your casino and took a seat at a -EV table even though i learned to tilt the odds in my favor, and if you dont like it they still have the power to remove you from playing, do they not? So again, tell me how i should feel guilty about not tipping?
Quote: ZenKinGSee you're making my point once again. It's not my responsibility to help the worker, its the corpration and company's responsibilty. Also just because i dont tip doesnt mean i dont 'help out my fellow humans'. You're trying to lump it all into one saying that just becasue i dont tip means im some grumpy dude who doesnt help out anyone, which is completely untrue. You're falling victim again to this societal notion that the customer is somehow required to tip these workers. Go cry to the corporation and business, not me. I should not feel one bit guilty of not tipping and neither should anyone. These workers should be looking at their boss with anger, not at me. I already did my part in ordering a marked up priced steak and fed the business with profits. I already came into your casino and took a seat at a -EV table even though i learned to tilt the odds in my favor, and if you dont like it they still have the power to remove you from playing, do they not? So again, tell me how i should feel guilty about not tipping?
Once again you are doing it wrong. If your paying for your food your doing it wrong. The cash goes directly to the individual. Never and I mean NEVER, EVER, EVER give cash for things like food or drinks or rooms or just about anything in Vegas. This all should be comped and your cash should be going directly to the individual helping them out in some small way. You and anyone else who gives cash to the Casino for Food or anything else is clearly out of their minds. Just my stance on the subject which is why tipping doesn't bother me because when I want clothes or food or whatever else they got I am getting that comped.
Quote: monet0412Once again you are doing it wrong. If your paying for your food your doing it wrong. The cash goes directly to the individual. Never and I mean NEVER, EVER, EVER give cash for things like food or drinks or rooms or just about anything in Vegas. This all should be comped and your cash should be going directly to the individual helping them out in some small way. You and anyone else who gives cash to the Casino for Food or anything else is clearly out of their minds. Just my stance on the subject which is why tipping doesn't bother me because when I want clothes or food or whatever else they got I am getting that comped.
I never buy food at a casino.
Quote: ZenKinGFirst off, everyone chooses their life, if they dont like the dealer job, they can quit, yet you're trying to make me feel guilty just like i mentioned before about how society tries to make you feel guilty for not tipping. Secondly 'mommy and daddy' didnt give me a dollar growing up like many other kids. In fact my dad made me work around the house every week on top of not getting a dollar. Of course they helped me grow my bankroll by letting me stay in the house rent free and providing food for me, but the way you phrased it, you made it sound like i had it easy or something. 99% of the people in this country had the same opportunity as me but just made wrong choices and chose the wrong people to hang out with and will live the rest of their life paycheck to paycheck and not because they didnt have 'mommy and daddy'. I just made better choices than most people, thats all, not because i have some 'mommy and daddy', but yet you try to make it seem like i had it 'easy'. Of course, i also realize some people dont have anything growing up and grow up with a single mom etc and that's the 1%, im excluding them for now for arguments sake as that's an anomaly and not what we're discussing here.
I also like how you make assumptions about me without ever meeting me or knowing my life. You think i dont have compassion because of a couple posts i made on this website about tipping? Ok buddy. Im probably one of the nicest people youll ever meet. I never stole, never betrayed anyone, and always help out people whenever they need it. My only flaw is im a bit emotional at times and act crazy at times as you can see from my posts during this blackjack venture. My whole argument about this tipping is not to look down on anyone or that i dont have compassion for people making much less than me. I just dont support the structure of tipping. The funnier thing is and makes my whole point go full circle, is why are you trying to target me as the guilty one and not the employers basically making their workers like peasants and avoiding paying them more than 2 bucks an hour by milking the tipping system?
When you live at home rent-free and your parents are giving you food, you have it very easy. Who paid for your college? Secondly, if you had compassion for people making much less than you, then you would do something about it, like tip them. Put it this way. The only reason why your career as a counter exists is because Nevada created a mecca for you to gamble. Clark County has 97 different places where you can attempt your counting skills: the only reason why you can do that is because casinos can offer 0.28 to 0.67% Blackjack by paying the dealers minimum wage and have the dealers rely on customers for tips. If the casinos got rid of tips and paid dealers $15 - $20 / hour your .28% tables would disappear and be replaced by 6-5 and worse games and your career as a counter wouldn't exist.
But that's okay. You are not the only gambler out there. There are plenty of gamblers who overtip and they have their reasons for doing so. It all balances out.
Quote: boymimboWhen you live at home rent-free and your parents are giving you food, you have it very easy. Who paid for your college? Secondly, if you had compassion for people making much less than you, then you would do something about it, like tip them. Put it this way. The only reason why your career as a counter exists is because Nevada created a mecca for you to gamble. Clark County has 97 different places where you can attempt your counting skills: the only reason why you can do that is because casinos can offer 0.28 to 0.67% Blackjack by paying the dealers minimum wage and have the dealers rely on customers for tips. If the casinos got rid of tips and paid dealers $15 - $20 / hour your .28% tables would disappear and be replaced by 6-5 and worse games and your career as a counter wouldn't exist.
But that's okay. You are not the only gambler out there. There are plenty of gamblers who overtip and they have their reasons for doing so. It all balances out.
Yea cause paying every dealer a minimum wage per hour or close to it is just so much that vegas casinos would start crying wolf with all their lost profits LOL. Give me a break man. A casino's profit margin is so damn high, paying a dealer slightly above minimum wage would be pennies to them. Also if you havent noticed the whole town is pretty much already 6-5. So much for your tip theory
You are right. Casinos do have a high profit margin. All of those high profit margins are being spent on maintaining buildings and paying down debt. For MGM, Sands, and Wynn the future is fairly bright - their overseas properties are huge financial engines for them. CZR is not so-lucky as most of their operations stayed domestic and their infrastructure costs and financing costs require cost cutting measures and 6-5 just to keep afloat. See for yourself. Pull down a annual report for CZR, Sands, and MGM and you'll have a good look at what I am talking about. The casino supports the infrastructure around it. Who do you think pays for the Bellagio fountains and the gardens? It's not the hotel guests. The reason why I am able to pull in a Comp hotel room at Mandalay Bay this fall is because they want my money. The casino supports the hotel. And my level of play is nothing close to extravagant.
Yeah you can blame mismanagement and the inability to see the 2008 meltdown for that. CitiCenter was conceptualized and built when the boom was going on and you could score mortgages without income. When the bust occurred in Vegas CitiCenter almost got killed. If it weren't for the Macau operations things would have been far worse.
Quote: boymimboA casino's profit margin is so high? How many times has CET declared bankruptcy, morphed itself, and come back out? How close was MGM to bankruptcy when CitiCenter was floundering? How is AC doing?
You are right. Casinos do have a high profit margin. All of those high profit margins are being spent on maintaining buildings and paying down debt. For MGM, Sands, and Wynn the future is fairly bright - their overseas properties are huge financial engines for them. CZR is not so-lucky as most of their operations stayed domestic and their infrastructure costs and financing costs require cost cutting measures and 6-5 just to keep afloat. See for yourself. Pull down a annual report for CZR, Sands, and MGM and you'll have a good look at what I am talking about. The casino supports the infrastructure around it. The reason why I am able to pull in a Comp hotel room at Mandalay Bay this fall is because they want my money. The casino supports the hotel. And my level of play is nothing close to extravagant.
Yeah you can blame mismanagement and the inability to see the 2008 meltdown for that. CitiCenter was conceptualized and built when the boom was going on and you could score mortgages without income. When the bust occurred in Vegas CitiCenter almost got killed. If it weren't for the Macau operations things would have been far worse.
Im aware of the whole citicenter ordeal. I belive MGM went to about 2 bucks a share as well. But lets be serious here for a moment. First off just throwing out the qord bankruptcy doesnt always mean a company doesnt have money or is not making money. It could simply be a chapter 11 restructuing of assets etc. Secondly lets be real, casinos being in debt or not having money would never rely on whether they are paying their dealers a normal wage or not. Youre reaching for the sake of argument. If theyre having financial issues its something much bigger and poor management
Quote: ZenKinGFirst off, everyone chooses their life, if they dont like the dealer job, they can quit, yet you're trying to make me feel guilty just like i mentioned before about how society tries to make you feel guilty for not tipping. Secondly 'mommy and daddy' didnt give me a dollar growing up like many other kids. In fact my dad made me work around the house every week on top of not getting a dollar. Of course they helped me grow my bankroll by letting me stay in the house rent free and providing food for me, but the way you phrased it, you made it sound like i had it easy or something. 99% of the people in this country had the same opportunity as me but just made wrong choices and chose the wrong people to hang out with and will live the rest of their life paycheck to paycheck and not because they didnt have 'mommy and daddy'. I just made better choices than most people, thats all, not because i have some 'mommy and daddy', but yet you try to make it seem like i had it 'easy'. Of course, i also realize some people dont have anything growing up and grow up with a single mom etc and that's the 1%, im excluding them for now for arguments sake as that's an anomaly and not what we're discussing here.
I also like how you make assumptions about me without ever meeting me or knowing my life. You think i dont have compassion because of a couple posts i made on this website about tipping? Ok buddy. Im probably one of the nicest people youll ever meet. I never stole, never betrayed anyone, and always help out people whenever they need it. My only flaw is im a bit emotional at times and act crazy at times as you can see from my posts during this blackjack venture. My whole argument about this tipping is not to look down on anyone or that i dont have compassion for people making much less than me. I just dont support the structure of tipping. The funnier thing is and makes my whole point go full circle, is why are you trying to target me as the guilty one and not the employers basically making their workers like peasants and avoiding paying them more than 2 bucks an hour by milking the tipping system?
This is the stuff that makes me crazy. Your credibility goes out the window when you say stuff like I bolded above. 1%? Anomaly? Are you kidding me? What ivory tower did you come from?
Divorce rate in this country has consistently been around 50% for decades. 30+% of kids grow up in single-parent homes. 24% of kids live below the poverty line. There is NO state in the country where the minimum wage there on a single full-time job will pay for a 2 bedroom apartment, let alone a house. And that's just the US, one of the most blessed of all countries. You're easily in the top 20% of family advantages in the US, probably the top 5% by world population.
Someday, maybe, you will realize what a gift you were given. 2 parents. College paid for. Room and board even after college paid for until you moved out. (But you didn't get paid for helping around the house. Spare me.) You studied card counting for a few weeks and expect the casinos to be a money tree. But no, you're cursed, the world hates you.
C'mon, ZK. Use what you've got, but Fer crying out loud, have some awareness of where it came from.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: ZenKinGFirst off, everyone chooses their life, if they dont like the dealer job, they can quit, yet you're trying to make me feel guilty just like i mentioned before about how society tries to make you feel guilty for not tipping. Secondly 'mommy and daddy' didnt give me a dollar growing up like many other kids. In fact my dad made me work around the house every week on top of not getting a dollar. Of course they helped me grow my bankroll by letting me stay in the house rent free and providing food for me, but the way you phrased it, you made it sound like i had it easy or something. 99% of the people in this country had the same opportunity as me but just made wrong choices and chose the wrong people to hang out with and will live the rest of their life paycheck to paycheck and not because they didnt have 'mommy and daddy'. I just made better choices than most people, thats all, not because i have some 'mommy and daddy', but yet you try to make it seem like i had it 'easy'. Of course, i also realize some people dont have anything growing up and grow up with a single mom etc and that's the 1%, im excluding them for now for arguments sake as that's an anomaly and not what we're discussing here.
I also like how you make assumptions about me without ever meeting me or knowing my life. You think i dont have compassion because of a couple posts i made on this website about tipping? Ok buddy. Im probably one of the nicest people youll ever meet. I never stole, never betrayed anyone, and always help out people whenever they need it. My only flaw is im a bit emotional at times and act crazy at times as you can see from my posts during this blackjack venture. My whole argument about this tipping is not to look down on anyone or that i dont have compassion for people making much less than me. I just dont support the structure of tipping. The funnier thing is and makes my whole point go full circle, is why are you trying to target me as the guilty one and not the employers basically making their workers like peasants and avoiding paying them more than 2 bucks an hour by milking the tipping system?
This is the stuff that makes me crazy. Your credibility goes out the window when you say stuff like I bolded above. 1%? Anomaly? Are you kidding me? What ivory tower did you come from?
Divorce rate in this country has consistently been around 50% for decades. 30+% of kids grow up in single-parent homes. 24% of kids live below the poverty line. There is NO state in the country where the minimum wage there on a single full-time job will pay for a 2 bedroom apartment, let alone a house. And that's just the US, one of the most blessed of all countries. You're easily in the top 20% of family advantages in the US, probably the top 5% by world population.
Someday, maybe, you will realize what a gift you were given. 2 parents. College paid for. Room and board even after college paid for until you moved out. (But you didn't get paid for helping around the house. Spare me.) You studied card counting for a few weeks and expect the casinos to be a money tree. But no, you're cursed, the world hates you.
C'mon, ZK. Use what you've got, but Fer crying out loud, have some awareness of where it came from.
Well people are reading way too much into the 1% thing and i already clarified what i meant exactly by that. I didnt want to say only people with single moms are the 1% but thats how it sounded when it came out. It was just one example. The divorce rate is right but you simply cant just use that and say 50% of kids grow up with a single parent because the divorce rate is 50%. When exactly are the parents divorcing? Are they spliytimg up when the kid is 5 years old, 10 years old? 20 years old? You meed more info.
I still might have exaggerated a bit by throwing in that people with single moms are a small %, but again it was just a poor choice of words really. I was trying to group it in with other terrible circumstances like what monet said about people with disabilities, war zone circumstances etc and it just came out wrong as if i was saying the 1% is simply people with single moms.
Then you give a ridiculous argument about tipping stating that it's the corporations responsibility and a state's responsibility to raise minimum wage. Meanwhile you go ahead and gamble knowing that the person you're staring at, without tips, makes 1,300 a month. In Las Vegas. And then you take advantage of an industry that works the way it does because you conveniently don't agree with the system which of course supports your AP.
Please, next time you sit at a table, explain your tipping policy. Tell them that you feel compassion for them, but you don't tip because you think the casinos should pay them a livable wage or the state should raise the minimum wage, or better yet, tell them to find a better job that pays better.
Luckily, in my case, it turned out I was right.
Reinvent the wheel of every convention and social norm. Every bit of common wisdom. He knows better.
Magically his superior insight always benifits hom, never anybody else. At least in the short run. Always to justify bad behavior and to make himself the victim. To say doing the wrong thing is right.
None of this twisted reasoning will ever lead to "I should do some volunteer work". Or even, " i should do something awesome for my parents to thank them for all they've given me. " alays I deserve more. Always, it's ok for me to gove less.
Whatever he might be irl, the poster is a portrait of complete moral bankruptcy, or an untreated personality disorder.
A Better Man
Keb' Mo'
Sittin' here in my problem
What am I gonna do now
Am I gonna make it
Someway, somehow
Maybe I'm not supposed to know
Maybe I'm supposed to cry
And if nobody ever knows
The way I feel, that's all right
That's okay
I'm gonna make my world a better place
I'm gonna keep that smile on my face
I'm gonna teach myself how to understand
I'm gonna make myself a better man, yeah
Climbin' out the window
Climbin' up the wall
Is anybody gonna save me
Or are they gonna let me fall
Well, I don't really wanna know
I'll just hold on the best I can
And if I fall down, I'm gonna get back up
It'll be alright, it'll be okay, God
I'm gonna make my world a better place
I'm gonna keep that smile on my face
I'm gonna teach myself how to understand
I'm gonna make myself a better man, oh
Maybe I'm not supposed to know
Maybe I'm supposed to cry
And if nobody ever knows the way I feel
That's all right, that's okay
Yeah, I'm gonna make my world a better place
I'm gonna keep that smile on my face
I'm gonna teach myself how to understand
I'm gonna make myself a better man
Well, I'm gonna make my world a better place
I'm gonna keep that smile on my face, yeah
I'm gonna teach myself how to understand
I'm gonna make myself a better man
Are they gonna let me fall
No, no, no, no, no, no, yeah
Yeah, be a better man, be a better man
I'm doing the best I can
Yes, I'm gonna make my world, yeah
You know what, I'm gonna make my world
I'm gonna step right up and get myself together
I'm gonna make my world, you know I'm gonna do the best I can, yeah
He will make my world, yeah tonight's gonna [Incomprehensible]
He will make my world, oh yeah, yeah
I'm gonna make my world, are they gonna let me fall?
No, make my world, yeah
I'm gonna make my world, my world, your world
Make my world
You know, I'm gonna make my world
Teach myself how to understand, yeah
Quote: ZenKinGGo cry to the corporation and business, not me. I should not feel one bit guilty of not tipping and neither should anyone. These workers should be looking at their boss with anger, not at me. I already did my part in ordering a marked up priced steak and fed the business with profits. I already came into your casino and took a seat at a -EV table even though i learned to tilt the odds in my favor, and if you dont like it they still have the power to remove you from playing, do they not? So again, tell me how i should feel guilty about not tipping?
I think I've found the fundamental flaw in your thinking. You don't tip people to provide them a living wage. You don't tip people because their employer is only paying them $2 an hour or whatever. You tip them because they're nice to you, providing a service, and doing a good job at that service. That's it. When you "take a stand" by saying "I'm not tipping because your employer doesn't pay you enough," that's not what people hear. They either hear, "I'm not tipping because I think you're a shitty dealer," or "I'm not tipping because I'm cheap."
If a dealer or waiter was making $100,000 a year base salary I would still tip him if I liked the way he did his job even though that's damn near three times my annual salary. That's the whole point of tipping; it's a completely irrelevant and separate issue from how much someone's base salary is. If you really wanted to take a stand, you would simply stop patronizing establishments where tipping is expected. If you don't want to tip that's your prerogative, but you're completely misunderstanding the whole point of tipping someone in the first place.
Quote: TigerWu
If a dealer or waiter was making $100,000 a year base salary I would still tip him if I liked the way he did his job even though that's damn near three times my annual salary. That's the whole point of tipping; it's a completely irrelevant and separate issue from how much someone's base salary is. If you really wanted to take a stand, you would simply stop patronizing establishments where tipping is expected. If you don't want to tip that's your prerogative, but you're completely misunderstanding the whole point of tipping someone in the first place.
I tend to agree with you, but I think that social mores are also something of a consideration. I don't think any grocery store cashiers are in the six figures, at least not in USD, and we don't generally tip them even though some of them provide service in a friendlier and better way than others. Same thing with the baggers.
Custodians, lifeguards, whatever...I think it starts with the social expectation which stems from the fact that their overall earn every year is largely predicated upon how much they get in tips. I can only think of a few positions where one even gets tips but typically earns a wage greater than the reduced, "Tipped," wage.
I would say that bartending is one, though not all bartenders actually earn at least the minimum wage. Many do. I would say that the slot techs (the handpay ones) are an example of getting a guaranteed wage more than the tipped minimum. Hair stylists are kind of a yes and a no because they often start at a certain hourly, and then they get their tips and then they get a percentage of the transaction...but the employer makes up the difference between that and the base pay if the base pay plus all of those things doesn't bring them up to minimum wage. If it brings them to MW, or more, the employer often only contributes the base pay.
In other words, the employer is actually paying MORE (directly) to the people who make less money for the business in some salons!!!
Housekeepers in hotels are another example of people who usually don't start off with a drastically reduced, "Tipped," wage, but mileage on tips seriously varies depending on the nature of the hotel.
I don't think one should penalize him or herself to take a stand, especially when you know damn well it's not going to make a bit of difference because too many people have been brainwashed and guilted into tipping.Quote: TigerWuIf you really wanted to take a stand, you would simply stop patronizing establishments where tipping is expected.
Would you tell a low-income disabled person who had a hard time cooking for themselves they shouldn't patronize a restaurant if they didn't feel they should tip?
I heard that 1 in 5 people don't tip in restaurants. I wonder how many people tip far below the standard? My guess is, it's high. I feel the tippers are now expected to make up for the low/non-tippers and that's why the standard is so high.
In that case he should be given a pass on tipping, especially at locations using gaffed Chinese decks.Quote: Rigondeaux
or an untreated personality disorder.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think one should penalize him or herself to take a stand, especially when you know damn well it's not going to make a bit of difference because too many people have been brainwashed and guilted into tipping.
Would you tell a low-income disabled person who had a hard time cooking for themselves they shouldn't patronize a restaurant if they didn't feel they should tip?
I heard that 1 in 5 people don't tip in restaurants. I wonder how many people tip far below the standard? My guess is, it's high. I feel the tippers are now expected to make up for the low/non-tippers and that's why the standard is so high.
If the employers high standard or high expectation on tipping cannot be met, then they has MORAL (perhaps not legal, but moral) obligation to adjust the base-rate structure, or to GUARANTEE the combined min hourly base rate + tip the workers should get.
a) Excessive tipper:
I can only assume that tippers in this category are ultra wealthy.
b) Showboating tipper:
Tippers in this category tend to tip generous amount, and they may not be wealthy.
c) Celebratory tipper:
Tippers in this category tip only when in good mood or in celebratory mode after a big win.
d) “Pay-for-performance” tipper
e) “Beauty-based” tipper
f) Ordinary tipper
g) “Pressure-felt” tipper
h) “Guilt conscience” tipper
j) “Jealous” tipper
k) “My buddy” tipper
Tippers in this category can tip generous amount, but only to those that they know well.
l) "ZK" tipper
m) Non-tipper tipper
There are wide varieties of reasons why people don’t tip. Bad services or bad experiences are few reasons for not-tipping. I’m guessing “jealousy” can be factor why people don’t tip. IMO, if you are in great debt or having some financial difficulty, I don’t think you should tip – morally you should put the well being of your family first.
n) Sentimental tipper:
When players at my table games are dealers, hosts, or casino employees they tend to tip more frequent and can be generous sometimes. This type of tippers can also be classified under the “Pressure-felt” category
I think the (f) ordinary tipper category is most common, and the (l) category is the least common. I’m in favor abolishing the tipping system and replace it with a with “living wage” base-rate standard, and plus additional compensations thru profit sharing/bonus/reward if the employers care about employees morale and motivation. And tippers in categories (a), (b), and (c) must be welcomed with wide open arms even in a non-tipping system.
Quote: 777If the employers high standard or high expectation on tipping cannot be met, then they has MORAL (perhaps not legal, but moral) obligation to adjust the base-rate structure, or to GUARANTEE the combined min hourly base rate + tip the workers should get.
Many employers do that with respect to the actual minimum wage in a particular jurisdiction. Salons, as I mentioned before. Some bars will start with a reduced, 'Tipped,' wage but will bring you up to the regular minimum wage if your tips aren't enough to get you there. They just make up the difference, if any, in both of those cases.
Anyway, 'Living Wage,' is a subjective term. However, if you want to break out of the tipping paradigm and just have the employers provide a living wage on direct, then prices would just go up. In the case of casinos, worse slot returns, side bet holds on tables, Triple-Double Field will just become Double-Double...all kinds of stuff you can do that most people won't notice.
I guess tippers could be viewed as subsidizing lower prices for non-tippers, but as a tipper, I suppose I can live with that.
USA says... Not My Problem...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHSPP-CzNl0
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think one should penalize him or herself to take a stand, especially when you know damn well it's not going to make a bit of difference because too many people have been brainwashed and guilted into tipping.
Would you tell a low-income disabled person who had a hard time cooking for themselves they shouldn't patronize a restaurant if they didn't feel they should tip?
I heard that 1 in 5 people don't tip in restaurants. I wonder how many people tip far below the standard? My guess is, it's high. I feel the tippers are now expected to make up for the low/non-tippers and that's why the standard is so high.
My mother is a waitress. She said there are plenty of bad tippers but not many no tippers. But there are also plenty of 25% or more tippers.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou could pay these people $20 an hour and they'd still expect tips.
I rented a daybed at the Flamingo pool because it's impossible to get a lounge chair and we wanted a pool day. $150+20% gratuity for the rental, plus $150+20% food and drink minimum. You get a host and a server, both of which were great, but they also hinted several times that you could tip above and beyond the forced 20%. I thought it was a little rude, 20% on a $300 tab is beyond fair in my opinion.
Quote: gamerfreakI rented a daybed at the Flamingo pool because it's impossible to get a lounge chair and we wanted a pool day.
Geez, is it that hard to find space at the Flamingo pool?? :( I might be going there later this year and I'd definitely like to hang out by the pool for a bit. I'll probably be there early to midweek, though, so I'm hoping it will be a little less crowded.
Quote: monet0412I am willing to bet that some non tipping people give to charities or the church. Later they find out someone in the organization embezzled all the money or they find out that only 5% of your total contribution actually reach the people. Dumb bastards could just directly give the people money through tipping hand to hand but no they can't do that because it is the employers responsibility to pay the workers and it ain't my problem as a patron! Reminds me of this LiL Video...
USA says... Not My Problem...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHSPP-CzNl0
I think the psychology can play big in role in people decision's making.
In the case of charity giving, people often moved by the very unfortunate, social and economic “beaten down” fellow human. On some occasions I gave money to panhandles. Sure, there are “con-artist” panhandlers, but would I be seriously harmed by these scam artists? The way I look at this, I may be fooled by some panhandlers and I don't think this is a big deal because on bright side, my giving most likely than not would help a truly needy and beaten down fellow human being.
Is the stranger in this article/video a generous tipper? I don’t know, but he appears to be a caring human being http://rabblevid.com/video/stranger-raises-money-buy-worker-new-car/
In the case tipping, the image of happy working persons, or persons that are not beaten down like the needy and the poor may not create the same level of emotion that encourages high level generosity. Also, financial/economic condition can be a big factor in tipping decision. I believe, many people CANNOT tip to the max of 20% or 25% simply because of their social economic status. The workers on the “receiving” end deserve good tip, but I think workers on the receiving end should think twice about their fellow workers on the tipping (“giving”) end’s social economic status before making judgments on how people tip.
Quote: GWAEMy mother is a waitress. She said there are plenty of bad tippers but not many no tippers. But there are also plenty of 25% or more tippers.
I believe, many people CANNOT tip to the max of 20% or 25% simply because of their social economic status. The workers on the “receiving” end deserve good tip, but I think workers on the receiving end should think twice about their fellow workers on the tipping (“giving”) end’s social economic status before making judgments on how people tip.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think one should penalize him or herself to take a stand
That's exactly what taking a stand is. It is absolutely hypocritical to go to a restaurant where tipping is expected if you are of the belief tipping should be abolished.
Quote: AxelWolfI heard that 1 in 5 people don't tip in restaurants.
It's 1 in 5 when AxelWolf's at dinner with 4 others. ;)
