rainman
rainman
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September 13th, 2013 at 10:56:47 AM permalink
All players benefit from a positive count. If casinos have computers aid them in determining shuffle points the house has essentially cheated all players by using info from a computer to their advantage and the players detriment.
Mission146
Mission146
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September 13th, 2013 at 10:58:41 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

All players benefit from a positive count. If casinos have computers aid them in determining shuffle points the house has essentially cheated all players by using info from a computer to their advantage and the players detriment.



Right, unless it is offset by not allowing the count to become excessively negative, as well. All players (except the AP's, because of bet spread) benefit from the impossibility of an excessively negative count.
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Paigowdan
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:00:53 AM permalink
I don't think it will be used at all for any physical changes on the game - including reshuffle points.
I think it may be used "for informational performance purposes" - like informing surveillance of game play statistics, possibly to include the running count, which is something they try to do anyway.
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Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:02:38 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
rainman
rainman
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:10:18 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Right, unless it is offset by not allowing the count to become excessively negative, as well. All players (except the AP's, because of bet spread) benefit from the impossibility of an excessively negative count.



This would be close to a zero sum game.
JimRockford
JimRockford
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:12:35 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


Automated Baccarat shoes are coming out, namely the Hawk shoe from DEQ (a company that Paradigm tracks very closely), where this beast not only speeds up play and reduces error, but provides for tremendous game protection under the speed increase and error reduction. It can know the Dragon-8 and Panda-8 counts at any instant in an ongoing fashion, and in real time; imagine this beast on a BJ shoe game.


CSMs provide sufficient technology to to keep a neutral count. I am told that casinos limited use of CSMs is because the big betters (AP or not) don't like them. What will the black chip guys think of this new hawk thing?
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Mission146
Mission146
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:12:46 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So if we played poker and I specifically dealt you 2/3 offsuit every hand, you don't think that's cheating?

Edit: Also, why is it ok to shuffle away the high cards but not the small cards?



I don't understand the first question, it bears no resemblance to what I was saying.

To the second question, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that it would be fair if they never allowed the count to become too positive or too negative. For instance, TC's of -2.99-+2.99 would be tolerable, any TC more than three either way would be intolerable and would require a shuffle.
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miplet
miplet 
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:13:26 AM permalink
From MindPlay info:
Quote:

1. No information regarding the balance of the undealt cards can be available to the casino until the shuffle point is reached.
2. Any information regarding the "count" of the cards is subject to an eight hand delay.


Probably the same type of delay is needed for Baccarat.
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Mission146
Mission146
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September 13th, 2013 at 11:14:34 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

This would be close to a zero sum game.



Not for the casino, they have the edge off-the-top and would continue to have the edge. IF a casino would be inclined to do this, it would be close to a zero-sum game for the AP's, which is the idea, because they wouldn't play it. I think it is a bad idea, anyway, because of time lost shuffling the cards excessively and also because of the lost revenue source of wannabe AP's.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Paradigm
Paradigm
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September 13th, 2013 at 12:55:05 PM permalink
I don't see a property changing the shuffle point using the Hawk or any other readable shoe technology (SHFL has products here as well), but they certainly could have better count information on when players are increasing/spreading their wagers.

So there won't be any early shuffles when the count is good and a "no shuffle" when the count is bad.....they won't change the game that way as I think that would be cheating on the property side.

However, a player that is spreading their bets with good counts, when detected, will be "flat betted" or asked to leave.

So here we are, once again..........the casino can ask anyone to leave at any time for any reason......regardless of how they have determined "any reason".......and a player can legally count for the main game or side bet or whatever at any time using any count system......but if the management ask you to leave the property, legally you have to leave......nothing has changed here except, perhaps as Dan has pointed out, the information available to the casino is getting better.

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