rxwine
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November 28th, 2011 at 4:45:13 PM permalink
Quote:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.



Granted, I'm bias and don't want to hear it anyway. Why was school directed prayer such an issue anyway. Were they all hypocrites?
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progrocker
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November 28th, 2011 at 5:13:18 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Granted, I'm bias and don't want to hear it anyway. Why was school directed prayer such an issue anyway. Were they all hypocrites?

A coworker that goes to a mega-church says that this quote was directed towards a specific group only, the Pharisees of the time. I don't buy his explanation. I'd be interested in FrGamble's opinion on this, as an important Catholic sacrament is literally performed in a closet.
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Ayecarumba
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November 28th, 2011 at 6:44:51 PM permalink
I'd say, it depends. Jesus' observation / instruction contrasts the Pharisee's L.A.M.E. (Look At Me Everyone) practice of public prayer, performed only for showing off their observance of the rules of their religious order; versus the actual intent of prayer, which is communing with God. Compare Matthew 18:19-20. Jesus is clear that prayer is meant to be a group activity too.

School prayer, prayers before athletic events, moments of silence, or even saying grace before a meal, can all be personal or LAME, depending on the individual. In the end, Paul's instruction in 1Thessalonians 5:17 ("Pray without ceasing") is the "best practice" for believers.
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Face
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November 28th, 2011 at 7:00:15 PM permalink
I wondered about this too, I even remember the huff caused by Obama when he canceled National Prayer day saying the same thing (prayer meant to be done in closet). I think Aye satisfied my curiosity with his answer.

A little off topic, but I saw an old timer at the BJ tables today wearing a hat that said "PUSH". I thought it was a weird thing to promote, hoping his whole day was nothing but ties. Then I got closer to read it fully and realised it was an acronym - Pray Until Something Happens.

I thought it was strange because it wasn't obviously satirical (it also said I <3 Jesus on the side) and the thought of "praying only for an action" seemed... improper, I guess.
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s2dbaker
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November 28th, 2011 at 7:01:58 PM permalink
Quote: progrocker

A coworker that goes to a mega-church says that this quote was directed towards a specific group only, the Pharisees of the time. I don't buy his explanation. I'd be interested in FrGamble's opinion on this, as an important Catholic sacrament is literally performed in a closet.

Let us play the logic game for a moment. This passage is written in Matthew 6:5-8. If this passage was directed at a specific audience at a specific time then why bother writing it into the holy book? It's meant for them back then as it is meant for us now and forever. God's word is eternal and unchanging.

And if you believe that, it speaks more about you than it does about your fig hating God.
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Wizard
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November 28th, 2011 at 8:06:22 PM permalink
Most public prayers I have ever heard seemed more like mini-sermons to me.
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progrocker
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November 28th, 2011 at 8:10:43 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

If this passage was directed at a specific audience at a specific time then why bother writing it into the holy book?


Perhaps because the bible may also be a historical account (hence this being in one of the synoptic gospels as opposed to John), and not just a set of instructions? When I was a Christian I didn't think of the bible as infallible the way some Protestant sects do (which to me is idolatry).
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EvenBob
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November 28th, 2011 at 8:22:40 PM permalink
Whats the difference between praying and wishing? When
I hear people pray, its like they're making wishes to the
wish-grantor in the sky. Praying seems to be a dressed up
version of primitive wish making and superstition. Especially
when I hear some of the stuff my sister in law 'prays' for.
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FrGamble
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November 28th, 2011 at 9:14:30 PM permalink
We use this reading for Ash Wednesday and it continues in verses 16-18 with an admonition to make sure that when you fast keep your face washed and clean. I always feel kind of strange that I spend all day smearing dirt on people's foreheads that day.

Anyway between the pray in secret advice and the teaching about fasting Jesus teaches us how to pray in The Lord's Prayer. Already it has been mentioned that prayer can have lots of different motivations; to some prayer is a way to show off (I love the acronym LAME and never heard that before), some look at prayer like a mini-sermon, lots of people look at prayer as wishing for something, however I think if we look quickly at the "Our Father" we get a different view of prayer that Jesus wants to teach us.

It starts off with praise - "hallowed be your name". This is the best way to start off any prayer, it is about God not me. Prayer is a way to honor God, who deserves it. If nothing else happens in prayer and I don't get my new car or the praise and esteem of men but God was praised then its a good day. After the quick praise then the most awesome and scariest line of any good prayer - "your will be done". This is what prayer is really about, its not about what I want, but abot what God wants. Ultimately my greatest wish is to get to the point where what I desire lines up with what God desires for me. If we pray this way then our motivation is to praise God, not be praised ourselves and to do His will, not force our will on Him. This type of prayer in my opinion can be shouted from the mountaintops. However, I'm with Jesus that the self serving, selfish, and sermonizing prayers I'd rather people do in their rooms behind closed doors.
Wizardofnothing
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January 21st, 2016 at 8:31:53 PM permalink
School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed
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Mission146
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January 22nd, 2016 at 12:03:54 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed



Even in Catholic schools? J/K
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 2:40:13 AM permalink
I'm sure it's not the majority opinion and especially since I went to one- but I don't think religion should be attached to a school- I never understood it thought maybe it was just my opinion of elementary schools but I also went to grad school at a religious school and became more adamant about it. I mean the whole concept of region at some point has to be questioned
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RS
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January 22nd, 2016 at 3:19:24 AM permalink
Short version of that Bible verse: "Don't make prayer something selfish and about yourself." It's about being humble.
GWAE
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January 22nd, 2016 at 3:56:35 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed



How did you stumble across a 5 year old thread?
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ukaserex
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:57:15 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed



I have a great deal of curiosity about this thread - and this post in particular.

While you have every right to choose to not pray when in school, or anywhere else for that matter, for some, communicating with God provides a great deal of comfort.

It should be everyone's right to pray whenever they wish, wherever they wish. This is America, after all. We enjoy freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

I do realize that if it's a public school and we have separation of church and state, it seems odd that prayer should be a part of that. I get that perspective. Still - a moment to pause and think about anything can be used for prayer, or for staring at the incredible buttocks that the girl one row over has is also an unproductive, but a fun way to spend 60-90 seconds.

I used to loathe public prayer. It felt fake and phony, like the ones that were praying were showing off. I've read the Bible - front to back, and also jumped around so much, some of my pages have fallen out and I had to get a new one. I strongly believe I don't know everything about it - but I do believe that public prayer is acceptable. I look back and for me - my discomfort had more to do with me, then with my thoughts of their hypocrisy from praying in public.

I still see old videos pop up occasionally of characters like Jimmy Swaggert and think, "what a phony". But, I see a football player like Ben Watson, a Tight-End for the Saints and firmly believe this fellow does his very best to walk the walk and talk the talk. I see no problems with this at all. It no longer makes me uncomfortable, because I am in a better place.

I cannot suggest that my shortcomings have a single thing to do with your feelings on the issue. I know nothing about you. But, I would simply ask that you elaborate why you feel so strongly on the issue. And not because I wish to debate you or change your mind (although the troll in me loves a healthy debate), but because I want to know more about why people are so against prayer, Christians, Church, etc, so much more than they used to be. (that's my perception, anyway)
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Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 7:05:28 AM permalink
That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 22nd, 2016 at 7:16:12 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain


Scam artist.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ukaserex
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January 22nd, 2016 at 8:01:24 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain



Well, that's your right. But, please accept that by definition, there are two types of Christians from the world perspective.

Those that say they are and those that are.

My personal philosophy about faith is "Rules without relationship reap rebellion". So, I can't prescribe any corrections to anyone unless I know them well. I don't know anyone here, so I'll hush my mouth regarding rules of behavior for anyone else. It's my single argument against televangelism. Nobody should preach to the masses unless they know the masses. In a church, it's a fair argument to suggest that the priest, pastor or preacher knows the people attending.

And as far as public prayer goes - if it doesn't inflict pain or interfere with your rights - let 'em do it. It provides them with great comfort. If they're "drinking the kool-aid", they're all in.
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SanchoPanza
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January 22nd, 2016 at 8:51:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed

How about a minute of silence?
RonC
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January 22nd, 2016 at 9:04:49 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

I'm sure it's not the majority opinion and especially since I went to one- but I don't think religion should be attached to a school- I never understood it thought maybe it was just my opinion of elementary schools but I also went to grad school at a religious school and became more adamant about it. I mean the whole concept of region at some point has to be questioned



Are you saying that a school sponsored by a religious organization should be banned from having public prayer within the school?

If that is the case, why not just go somewhere else?

Why go to grad school at a religious school if you don't want to be involved in religion? Was that the only one that offered your chosen course of study?

Maybe I am misinterpreting your comment; I am sorry if that is the case.
Gabes22
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January 22nd, 2016 at 9:58:02 AM permalink
We have Freedom of Religion in this country, not freedom from religion. You can choose what you wish to do and choose what not to do as far as faith goes. Now, back to the original question, I think there is a certain amount of sanctimonious hypocrisy in prayer groups. Last public prayer I took place in was a Candlelight Vigil a day or 2 after 9/11, and I didn't feel good about it. I think prayer, for the most part should be done in private.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 10:04:07 AM permalink
Went to that school because at the time it was one of the only ones offering law school at noght
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ukaserex
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January 22nd, 2016 at 10:14:37 AM permalink
I'm of two minds on this.

Under most conditions - I agree, no need to be praying in the middle of a shopping mall or stopping your car at a rest area and inviting other travelers.


However, in a fox-hole? Absolutely pray. For me and with me.

In a jail cell? You betcha. I've been there before - not a very nice place. Hope I can get back on track with my book about that experience. (I keep going back to the outline, adding more things - but the writing part, every time I look at it, I hate it. )

In a restaurant, with your family: This is probably where I see this more than any other place besides church and in front of various slot machines when the bankrolls run thin. I'm okay with this, if they're speaking low, hushed tones so as not to disturb others.

I remember being on the football team in high school and the coach (public school) would ask a captain to lead us in prayer. I never felt good about this. So, I just thought about the game plan in lieu of praying. No harm, no foul. Just a momentary bit of discomfort. I suspect nowadays, they call that being oppressed or something.


On an aside, Gabes22, in reference to your signature, in Ontario and the prairie western provinces of Canada, as well as parts of the Midwest and West in the US, such a round jelly- or custard-filled doughnut is commonly called a "bismark" or "bismarck" (after Otto von Bismarck). We do not call it a danish. At least, I never have and have made thousands of pounds of donuts. But, since I've not worked in that industry for over 5 years, I guess I can no longer be considered an expert.
"Those who have no idea what they are doing, genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
MrV
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January 22nd, 2016 at 10:54:45 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Went to that school because at the time it was one of the only ones offering law school at noght



Are you an attorney?
"What, me worry?"
teddys
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January 22nd, 2016 at 11:14:03 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Went to that school because at the time it was one of the only ones offering law school at noght

I'm guessing Villanova.
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Gabes22
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January 22nd, 2016 at 11:15:25 AM permalink
ukaserex, it's just a line from a movie I like. Caddyshack
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
ukaserex
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January 22nd, 2016 at 11:30:50 AM permalink
Ah...okay. I was just being silly anyway. It's Friday - I'm just a couple hours away from my weekly "How much money can I win" weekend.

I'm giddy with excitement. I've only...occasionally played blackjack. I used to be good at it, won from time to time at smaller casinos with friendly dealers. I do not know how they could have rigged the shoe in my favor, but perceptions can cloak reality - until your bankroll runs out. I digress. I just can't seem to stop being silly.

An excellent film - which I only began to appreciate once I got over 40. Not sure why.
"Those who have no idea what they are doing, genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
RonC
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January 22nd, 2016 at 12:35:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Went to that school because at the time it was one of the only ones offering law school at noght



So they offered you what you needed and you should just accept that they had "public" prayer and left it at that. Why would you want to ask them not to have "public" prayer in a private institution?
Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 12:41:23 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Are you an attorney?



I plead the 5th
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MrV
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January 22nd, 2016 at 12:46:18 PM permalink
Is the "fifth" in question: the amendment to the U.S. Constitution, or a bottle of Jack Daniels?

Were you an attorney with a background in this area of the law you might qualify as an expert, and that would add a bit of gravitas to your opinion.
"What, me worry?"
djatc
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January 22nd, 2016 at 1:23:04 PM permalink
People always pray at casinos. Asking for royals, winning their crappy double downs, etc.

I'll pray for all the heathens in this thread. Also for a 12x royal on UX dealt on 10 lines. And for the pizza I just ordered to get here quick.
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Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 3:27:10 PM permalink
Rather not post too much personal info in the Thread- I tried to pm you but it will not allow me to. So I am ok with my opinion not carrying as much weight as I would like.....
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MrV
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January 22nd, 2016 at 3:33:46 PM permalink
That's cool, no worries.

Constitutional law is a baffling, ever-evolving amorphous area of the law.
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Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 4:43:30 PM permalink
However a good friend of mine judge Napolitano who taught con law has similar viewpoint I believe
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RS
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January 22nd, 2016 at 4:56:23 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

However a good friend of mine judge Napolitano who taught con law has similar viewpoint I believe



Is this the belief that conning/fraud should not be against the law because no one is hurt---someone is just tricking someone else? I don't remember if it was you or someone else that had been arguing that point on here.
beachbumbabs
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:10:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing



That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain


Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Scam artist.



IBYA,

You need to clarify: Are you finishing his sentence as "Not to mention a scam artist."

Or are you calling WoN a scam artist?

I think you're agreeing with what he said and finishing the sentence. But it looks like an insult. Which is it?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:14:19 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Is this the belief that conning/fraud should not be against the law because no one is hurt---someone is just tricking someone else? I don't remember if it was you or someone else that had been arguing that point on here.



Not sure if you're being facetious. Constitutional Law aka con law.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:21:55 PM permalink
Several people on here have said we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I would argue that freedom of religion INCLUDES "freedom from religion". Many countries require (or used to require) that all citizens are at least nominally members of the state religion, with tithes, attendance requirements, acknowledgement of church authority in some matters, whatever. England was one of them, which is what that clause was about; setting America apart from English law by not mandating a state religion. There were hundreds of years there where Catholicism was illegal, for example, though long in the past.

There is no law or statute that requires any American to be a member of a religion, or of any religion. Or one that prevents a person from being a member of any religion. Or any outlawed religions. Perhaps some practices of some religions, such as live sacrifices or public sex, are illegal, but that's about it.
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:25:10 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: Wizardofnothing



That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain




IBYA,

You need to clarify: Are you finishing his sentence as "Not to mention a scam artist."

Or are you calling WoN a scam artist?

I think you're agreeing with what he said and finishing the sentence. But it looks like an insult. Which is it?


Finishing. Sorry for any confusion but it should be clear as day. If I were calling him that, I'd say "he" was and not quote what he said.

And I'M insulted you'd think that!! I think it's time for you to go!
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
beachbumbabs
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:45:51 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: Wizardofnothing



That would be a much longer debate then I can ever type on here.... Most people who preach religion are complete hypocrites. Not to mention a
.... Ah I could go on for days I'm going to refrain




IBYA,

You need to clarify: Are you finishing his sentence as "Not to mention a scam artist."

Or are you calling WoN a scam artist?

I think you're agreeing with what he said and finishing the sentence. But it looks like an insult. Which is it?


Finishing. Sorry for any confusion but it should be clear as day. If I were calling him that, I'd say "he" was and not quote what he said.

And I'M insulted you'd think that!! I think it's time for you to go!



I was, in fact, following up on a complaint made to me about the personal insult you said to WoN. I "got it" when I read the thread (which I hadn't read until I was asked to ban you). As I said above.

So I asked you to clarify for the complainer's information. Relax, please.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RS
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January 22nd, 2016 at 6:51:59 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Not sure if you're being facetious. Constitutional Law aka con law.



Ah, I didn't know con law stood for Constitutional Law.
MrV
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January 22nd, 2016 at 7:04:58 PM permalink
As an atheist, I feel we as a people are not quite where we should be yet in terms of our public institutions and currency being free from religion.

I am not happy that on the back of the one dollar bill the words "In god we trust" are emblazoned.

The phrase "under god" is in the pledge of allegiance.

I certainly do not trust in god, nor do I owe allegiance to only the godly.

Substitute the word "law" for "god" and I would not object.
"What, me worry?"
teliot
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January 22nd, 2016 at 7:23:27 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

School prayer should 100 percent be outlawed

I am sure you mean *public school* prayer. I don't want one penny of my taxes supporting any government agency that supports or encourages prayer of any type. Well, not until they make all school prayers come from the one true church, the United Church of Bacon.
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Wizardofnothing
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January 22nd, 2016 at 8:49:27 PM permalink
You ate correct as I meant public schools ..... But in taking it a step further I may also say any private school that receives tax payer funding.....

Also rs
Yes constitutional law in school is referred to as con law for short- it wasn't meant as a joke but yes it is kind of funny
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JoelDeze
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May 17th, 2016 at 12:23:23 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

As an atheist, I feel we as a people are not quite where we should be yet in terms of our public institutions and currency being free from religion.

I am not happy that on the back of the one dollar bill the words "In god we trust" are emblazoned.

The phrase "under god" is in the pledge of allegiance.

I certainly do not trust in god, nor do I owe allegiance to only the godly.

Substitute the word "law" for "god" and I would not object.



"In God We Trust" is the national motto for the U.S. It was reaffirmed in 2006 by Congress and is also supported by 90% of Americans according to a joint Gallup Poll (CNN, USA Today and Gallup). As an atheist you are in a minority, unfortunate as it may be. But, the great thing about our Country is that you have the right to peacefully object through your freedoms. And, those same freedoms were won long before you and I were ever born by pompous religious farmers that tried to do their best to make our nation great.

I am not a religious person but I respect the beliefs of others. You are objecting to something that lives inside of a paradigm. Good luck trying to break that shell.
ďItís a dog eat dog world out there and Iím wearing milkbone underwear .Ē Ė Norm Peterson
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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Joined: May 22, 2013
May 17th, 2016 at 2:56:52 PM permalink
Damnation!
There's Joel again, just when I thought the Forums had him cornered over there in the 'craps' threads!
I am religious, I believe in me (not to be confused with ME, though I lean that direction ).

What we need is our elected officials ( do we still elect them? ) to debate this again.
I am such a loser......;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
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