Sabretom2
Sabretom2
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March 22nd, 2014 at 9:33:32 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

Because religion causes a lot of harm in the world and I'm not sure the goods outweigh the bads. Especially given a significant portion of the populations outright rejection of science which holds us back from further progressing.



Oh I see. So it's a crusade.
teliot
teliot
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March 22nd, 2014 at 9:34:10 AM permalink
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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March 22nd, 2014 at 9:44:13 AM permalink
I would just like to say I think this is one of the best debates I've ever seen on this site (or really, any other). Thank you teliot, FrGamble, and several others. You are crystalizing many random thoughts I've had over decades into understanding some things further. I hope you continue the conversation; I'm learning a lot.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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March 22nd, 2014 at 9:56:59 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

True story: I was invited to attend a large meeting between Jews and Muslims. The event was to have a few keynote speakers and then small group discussions between members of both religions. I was a small group leader to try and keep the discussion helpful and moving forward. Anyway, the Muslim keynote speaker said much to my surprise that more than anything else Islam needs a Pope! What he was getting at is there is no one to authoritatively say this is what the Koran means or to say that if you believe it means this or that you are not Muslim and are using your own personal interpretation.

I should point out to FrGamble's Muslim acquaintance that Popes aren't the Magisterium or authoritative voice or even the muckity-muck for all of Christianity and not a even a majority of Christians around the world. Even if the Shia had a Pope, the Sunni would reject it. I'm certain that even FrGamble believes that a person picks their own Gods and rejects the rest. If he didn't believe that, then he wouldn't bother trying to convert us unwashed heathen into Catholicism. There would be no point.

Since a person picks their own Gods or lack thereof, it's easy to conclude that the choice of one's God reflects more on that person than of that God.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
FrGamble
FrGamble
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March 22nd, 2014 at 10:10:52 AM permalink
To say that something cannot come from nothing is not making something up from nothing. The use of our brains and intellect is not limited to what we can test and verify in a lab or by using a telescope. I too am overjoyed by those dedicated professionals with intellectual curiosity searching for answers about the origin of the universe. I'd love to know more about the Big Bang and gravitational waves, that stuff is awesome! However I don't think we are making something up when we reject the impossibility of an infinite regress or talk about a non-contingent being. You seem to think anything science hasn't or cannot discover must be just made up. I find that very sad.

exhibit A:
Quote: teliot

The various massive structures of belief that are called religions are each based on a collection of anecdotes. None has yet to produce a single useful tool to benefit mankind.



I find it very interesting you complain that religion has not provided a useful tool, like religion should make a new type of screwdriver. It shows again that I'm afraid you think the only valuable contributions anyone can make is through science or technology. Religion has given us the concept that human beings are special and that all people are created equal. Religion has taught us that the universe is ordered and has a purpose and therefore can effectively and usefully be studied (the birth of science, yeah!). Religion gives us hope that this broken and unjust world is not all there is and the inspiration to try to fix it as best we can. Religion gives us a foundation on which to claim something is truly or objectively bad or good. We could continue this in the celebrate religion thread. While these are not tools or wrenches or scientific discoveries they are none the less truth and truth of a higher order that allows us to do science and build technology ethically and well.
Nareed
Nareed
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March 22nd, 2014 at 10:43:21 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, the Muslim keynote speaker said much to my surprise that more than anything else Islam needs a Pope! What he was getting at is there is no one to authoritatively say this is what the Koran means or to say that if you believe it means this or that you are not Muslim and are using your own personal interpretation.



I won't rehash the bit about the three Popes, but will rather merely point out having a Pope hasn't kept Christianity from fragmenting into a large number of denominations. Even early in the Church's history, the Pope may have been supreme in the West, but the Patriarch of constantinople ruled the East.

Then there's the laundry lists of sects originating ever since Constantine I established a state church in the Roman Empire, with the Nestorians and Monophysites being only the more prominent. And no sooner had Luther founded Protestantism (not called that at the time), when denominations based on it appeared, like Calvinism.

This is not exlcuive or particulAr of Christianity. Fragmentation is a characteristic of all religions, philosophies, and other groups organized along such lines. In politics partIes tend to proliferate, split, re-split, combine, etc.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 22nd, 2014 at 10:57:20 AM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Even if I were to suspend disbelief and go with the story of all the world's animals being on board an ark...dinosaurs...really...?!?

'
And here I was thinking that this was going to be a thread about how Craps and Roulette are ancient and out of sync.

By the way, how do you have a "day" if the Sun only came later?
teliot
teliot
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March 22nd, 2014 at 11:00:39 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Religion has given us the concept that human beings are special

That, my friend, is the biggest problem with religion, in a nutshell. One of the greatest gifts of science is the realization that we are not special. I find it extraordinarily arrogant for religions to teach such things. Destroy all the forests. Pollute the water. Heat up the planet. Kill of the species. None of that matters because we are special.
Quote:

and that all people are created equal

Surely, you're joking.
Quote:

Religion has taught us that the universe is ordered and has a purpose and therefore can effectively and usefully be studied (the birth of science, yeah!)

Religion creates random and meaningless orders that have to be refuted for science to progress. A good case can be made that your religion has, at every point in the course of scientific revolution, persecuted scientists.
Quote:

Religion gives us a foundation on which to claim something is truly or objectively bad or good.

I agree with you, sociopaths are bad for society at large. But, I don't need a tablet to tell me that.

If you wonder about the boundaries of science, they I invite you to start learning about how that question is being answered. Read about Godel's theorem, the P v. NP problem, and about the current competing cosmological models. Having spent most of your life studying angels of various types, imagine how much you could know had you spent just a fraction of that time studying real things.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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March 22nd, 2014 at 11:01:18 AM permalink
Here is one outstanding example of why I think there is room for both in the world. Take a few minutes and enjoy the beauty, the inspiration, and the faces of the crowd enjoying an unexpected gift. Then read below, please.



This video is filled with dichotomies. Religious/Scientific. Church/State. Public/Private. Old/New. Male/Female. Group/Individual.

  • The United States Air Force band and choir are performing 2 Christian celebrations of the birth of Jesus. (Your tax dollars at work.)

  • Bach, a German Lutheran and religious fanatic, and Handel, a humanist, devout but of no known religious sect. Creative contemporaries.

  • The USAF band is performing religious music in the middle of the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, arguably the most scientific display in the world.

  • The conductor is leading from next to the Moon Rock.

  • The band is performing among Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo capsules post-spaceflight.

  • The religious performance intrinsically depends on the physics of sound developed on instruments and by vocal chords.

  • The integrity of the performance relies on the cueing of the conductor because of the extreme dispersion of the group in flash mob fashion; speed of light vs. speed of sound.

In each case, the sum is greater than the parts. It is possible to be divinely inspired by science. It is possible to be rational about religion.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
teliot
teliot
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March 22nd, 2014 at 11:10:59 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

It is possible to be rational about religion.

Exactly!
End of the world website: www.climatecasino.net

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