Sports Book/Blackjack--Dover and Harrington in Delaware

I visted the Sports Book at Dover Downs a couple of weeks ago and thought it compared favorably (albeit on a smaller scale) with ones that I had visited in Las Vegas. Last week, I visited Harrington and came away truly impressed.

Understand, Harrington is the Delaware State Fair venue--you know, the kind with barnyard animals, etc. I was completely unprepared for what I saw. Best comparison I can make is Bellagio (but without the free drinks); now, I understand I might be overstating the comparison a bit but this place is really nice.

For what it's worth, at the Shufflemaster Blackjack machines; Harrington it was H17 w/no surrender allowed and at Dover, it was S17 w/no surrender allowed. I know of no good reason why there should be a difference.

Table games are supposed to be introduced spring/summer 2010.

Quote: Niblick

For what it's worth, at the Shufflemaster Blackjack machines; Harrington it was H17 w/no surrender allowed and at Dover, it was S17 w/no surrender allowed. I know of no good reason why there should be a difference.

It's kind of like the variances you see and I mentioned in different Pennsylvania places. Last week I noticed they took the surrender away at Hollywood Penn National...it was there just weeks ago. I think the average player who is trying those machines for the first time doesn't even know what surrender is. I'm sure incorrect plays with regard to surrender would make up for the few players who play it perfectly for an advantage. I guess Penn National disagrees....

I do wonder how much player input error helps the house on those games. I have played thousands of hands on those machines, and probably have pressed the key that I did not mean to maybe twice over the past 3 years, but I never drink or play while too tired. I'm not talking about bad strategy plays, but actual "I hit the wrong button" mistakes. Whereas a live dealer can double check your hit on 20, the computer just busts you.

I think you're right on with your wonderment about input errors and who makes them. Seems to me that the more experienced is far less likely to make the input error; the newbie making the input error may well have been on their way to making a mistake to begin with. Still, I think the net result is a gain for the house.

Since you have played the PA clubs, maybe you can help me with a question that I have on another thread (that has yet to be answered). From what I have read on the WOO site, PA Shufflemaster machines, due to some PA idiosyncrasy, deal to each player from their own indiviual shoe shoe. If this is indeed the case, is counting possible (REKO, Hi-Lo)?

If so, how can you tell when the new shoe begins (cause I can't tell) and what penetration would you use if counting w/the Hi-Lo approach?

Quote: Niblick

I think you're right on with your wonderment about input errors and who makes them. Seems to me that the more experienced is far less likely to make the input error; the newbie making the input error may well have been on their way to making a mistake to begin with. Still, I think the net result is a gain for the house.

Since you have played the PA clubs, maybe you can help me with a question that I have on another thread (that has yet to be answered). From what I have read on the WOO site, PA Shufflemaster machines, due to some PA idiosyncrasy, deal to each player from their own indiviual shoe shoe. If this is indeed the case, is counting possible (REKO, Hi-Lo)?

If so, how can you tell when the new shoe begins (cause I can't tell) and what penetration would you use if counting w/the Hi-Lo approach?

Here in western PA they shuffle every hand so counting is useless. I do think the game uses one shoe, though, not for each player, based on how I read the instructions.

Quote: Niblick

I think you're right on with your wonderment about input errors and who makes them. Seems to me that the more experienced is far less likely to make the input error; the newbie making the input error may well have been on their way to making a mistake to begin with. Still, I think the net result is a gain for the house.

Since you have played the PA clubs, maybe you can help me with a question that I have on another thread (that has yet to be answered). From what I have read on the WOO site, PA Shufflemaster machines, due to some PA idiosyncrasy, deal to each player from their own indiviual shoe shoe. If this is indeed the case, is counting possible (REKO, Hi-Lo)?

If so, how can you tell when the new shoe begins (cause I can't tell) and what penetration would you use if counting w/the Hi-Lo approach?

Excellent question. Most machines do NOT inform the players that each position and the dealer's position do have completely separate shoes, but based on all available information, this is the case, as per PA law. I usually don't bother to stop the arguments between players who "took" each other's cards or the dealer's bust card.

But back to the point: Most machines say "Cards are shuffled after each round." There are some that say "Cards are shuffled after 2/3 of the shoe." With the first scenario, you know when the shuffle happens...every new round. This doesn't help counters too much. With the latter, you are not informed when the shuffle happens. I've had people say "If the machine isn't used for a while, it's a new shuffle." There is no evidence to support this. Something else to consider: Certain casinos have the dealer change every once and a while (the flat screen changes from an Asian woman to an Irish guy or the like). Some people like to believe that is when the shuffling takes place. Again, there is no documentation that this is the case...and there are also machines that say the "2/3 shoe" that do not change dealers. The short answer to your question is that there is most likely no way to count into these machines. I have studied it for a long time, and that's my opinion. That being said, I have done quite well playing the machines over the past two years. They can run incredibly streaky, much moreso than the hand dealt game. I don't know why, and I certainly don't have millions of hands as proof, but I do have moderate winnings overall.

I could really do a pretty detailed article about my experiences with the machines. One interesting thing is that if you get any payout over $1200 at a lot of the places, you must get a hand pay. So if you bet $300 and double down and win, you are paid $1200 and the game stops for you and you must wait. It is ridiculous that an even money win on a 600 bet is a signer, but my protests to the floor were only moderately entertained. They said they were considering changing the rule. I started betting 295, but then realized a double after split and 3 bet win would cause the same problem. Very frustrating. Same goes for any pay on the Bally's Roulette over $1200. So if you bet 400 on "1st 12" and it's a Red 7, everything grinds to a halt. It's especially annoying when you are having a losing session, and they come up to you with the "Congratulations!!! WOW!!! LOOK AT YOU!!! $1200!!!!" Needless to say, I'm waiting anxiously for table games in PA.

cclub79,

Thank you for your response...my experience at the Shufflemaster machines seems to be similar to yours.

I believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny--but I do not believe in the Blackjack Fairy (although after sitting at the Shufflemaster Machines, I can tell that I am in the minority). The amount of suppositions, presuppostions, assumptions and presumptions (all without factual basis) that I hear is seemingly endless.

Just to get away from listening to that conversation is one of the reasons I look forward to the tables in DE and PA...

Another? The Shufflemaster cleavage is getting old.

I keep thinking of more things about these machines. For example, I know, based on what video the computer plays, whether the dealer is going to bust or not. There are only a couple of different ones for a bust, and a couple of others for a pat hand (17-21). Of course, they don't play until you have finished your action, so it does not help you with the game in any way. But it's funny to watch other players yelling..."C'mon...C'mon..." when I already know that the dealer is busting or not. I don't even look at the cards after all players have acted. I watch the dealer video, and I know instantly. Sometimes it still matters if I have a 17-21, but it takes a lot of suspense out of the game.

I must be looking at the cleavage...I really can't tell any difference; but as you say, it is post facto so there is no impact on one's play.

whats the state law in DE on these VBJ machines that state they shuffle at 2 3rds of a 6 deck shoe? i was told all machines are considered video lottery terminals and cannot pay back over 95% however that would seem impossible to be true and this seems to offer a fair game and ur decisions matter. if a BJ game is fair and u dont play dumb, its impossible to only get back 95%