I'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.
Did he really call that "hogwash"? It makes perfect sense to me.
Quote: Mosca
I'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.
completely agree
Quote: MoscaI'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.
It just goes to show you religious people are no more likely to be respectful of the dead than anyone else.
Did they spit on his grave, for good measure, or just dance on top of it?
Quote: odiousgambitSo this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!
That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.
Quote: WizardQuote: odiousgambitSo this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!
That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.
As a (I hope) both respectful but also believing Protestant, I greatly admire and respect elements of Mormonism, but I agree with odiousgambit about this being silly. I take the Wizard's point about, say, Jonah and the Whale, but I think there are two key differences:
1) What's being done here is explicitly against the free will of the deceased. Even if it doesn't "matter" to him I think it's still very disrespectful.
2) In my mind at least stories like the Wizard cited, whether one believes they're true or not, are sort of of periphery importance in the faith. This is about the actual act of salvation, which in a religion that believes in such a thing should be treated with great care.
On a serious note I think the whole idea is it really indoctrinates one into the faith. If find it very weird but not as cool as "sister wives"
Quote: sunrise089Quote: WizardQuote: odiousgambitSo this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!
That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.
As a (I hope) both respectful but also believing Protestant, I greatly admire and respect elements of Mormonism, but I agree with odiousgambit about this being silly. I take the Wizard's point about, say, Jonah and the Whale, but I think there are two key differences:
1) What's being done here is explicitly against the free will of the deceased. Even if it doesn't "matter" to him I think it's still very disrespectful.
2) In my mind at least stories like the Wizard cited, whether one believes they're true or not, are sort of of periphery importance in the faith. This is about the actual act of salvation, which in a religion that believes in such a thing should be treated with great care.
And to think, just 40 years ago, according to this "admirable" faith black people were the spawn of Shatan. Though thankfully, after several million years God reconsidered, and this is no longer said to be the case (for now anyway...God works in mysterious ways after all). Lol, but not...
If they can't conscript you at a young impressionable age, they wait until rigor mortis sets in.
There's no escaping the rabid theists.
Thus, I don't see why the Jewish community got bothered about this. Either the Mormons were wrong, in which case what difference did it make? If they were right, then the Holocaust victims could reject the baptism and stick with their own faith. Nothing wrong with a choice.
For the non-Mormon Christians on this site, what is your explanation of what happens to those who never heard Jesus? As least with the Mormon faith they have a chance to go to the good place anyway.
Quote: Wizard
non-Mormon Christians
THAT should ruffle some feathers. I know Christians who cringe at the thought of Mormons considering themselves Christians.
- Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Quote: Wizard
Thus, I don't see why the Jewish community got bothered about this. Either the Mormons were wrong, in which case what difference did it make? If they were right, then the Holocaust victims could reject the baptism and stick with their own faith. Nothing wrong with a choice.
By analogy, suppose Vietnam posthumously declared all the fallen US soldiers from the war to be Vietnamese citizens. Would you expect the families of those soldiers to be bothered?
Quote: MathExtremistBy analogy, suppose Vietnam posthumously declared all the fallen US soldiers from the war to be Vietnamese citizens. Would you expect the families of those soldiers to be bothered?
They might be, but if I were one of them I wouldn't care because it is just silly to convey citizenship to a missing dead body.
Quote: WizardThere he says, "The person who died can either receive this gift or reject it."
He did reject it when he was alive and, presumably, still in command of all his faculties.
It's an easy decision to make once you're dead and know the answer anyway.
Quote: WizardFor the non-Mormon Christians on this site, what is your explanation of what happens to those who never heard Jesus? As least with the Mormon faith they have a chance to go to the good place anyway.
Good point.
I think they claim that it is not necessary to know about Jesus to receive the same benefits allegedly enjoyed by Christians.
It all apparently depends on how you behave.
However, if Jesus' message is so important, it must place those who have been converted at a considerable unfair advantage.
Could be construed as descrimination on God's part.
Mark
As to Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they died because they were Jewish. That's the reason they were murdered. now, some of them may have been religious, some may not ahve been. But neither case gives anyone the right to say "This Jew who was murdered because he was Jewish is now a Mormon." Or a Muslim, or a Budhist, or an atheist, or anything else.
If you hated someone who dies, then admit it and be open in your insults towards him. It's rude, it's bad manners, and it will hurt tohers still alive. But it's honest.
Quote: victorimmatureI think they claim that it is not necessary to know about Jesus to receive the same benefits allegedly enjoyed by Christians.
It all apparently depends on how you behave.
However, if Jesus' message is so important, it must place those who have been converted at a considerable unfair advantage.
Could be construed as descrimination on God's part.
In that case missionaries may actually be doing a disservice if attempted to convert those who have never heard, especially if they were already generally good people. Suppose 90% would have made to to heaven by the "good person" test. However, once you tell them about Jesus that test no longer is applicable, if I understand it right. What if the conversion rate were less than 90%. Then the missionaries would have caused more people to go to hell.
Quote: WizardIn that case missionaries may actually be doing a disservice if attempted to convert those who have never heard, especially if they were already generally good people. Suppose 90% would have made to to heaven by the "good person" test. However, once you tell them about Jesus that test no longer is applicable, if I understand it right. What if the conversion rate were less than 90%. Then the missionaries would have caused more people to go to hell.
I think Christains would agrue that telling people about Jesus could only improve their chances of avoiding hell.
Quote: victorimmatureChristains
This sums up the majority of your posts.
Quote: ikilledjerryloganThis sums up the majority of your posts.
Sorry if I misled you.
My real motivation is this -
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/13/gop-poised-to-make-history-with-a-non-protestant-nominee/
And no, I don't mean the one about Everest or Alaska...
Quote: victorimmatureSorry if I misled you.
My real motivation is this -
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/13/gop-poised-to-make-history-with-a-non-protestant-nominee/
No worries. I too would be interested to see how a CHRISTIAN would answer the Wizard's question.
Quote: ikilledjerryloganNo worries. I too would be interested to see how a CHRISTIAN would answer the Wizard's question.
I don't know. But I like having, even momentarily, the most recent 5
posts on this site. OK, just call me Nareed jr.
Anyway, about how can people be saved who have never heard of Christ. This is summed up in the idea of 'Baptism by Desire'. What this roughly means is that if through no fault of your own you do not know Jesus or cannot believe in Him but you live your life according to the natural and innate drive to serve and care for others according to your conscience the mercy and love of God will gather you to Himself in the joys of Heaven. Evangelization is always a good thing because truly knowing Christ is a help to serving and loving others and God. However, we must keep in mind that no missionary is perfect and just because someone is introduced to Christ does not mean he or she must convert or be damned. I think it is always wise when trying to figure out who is going to hell or heaven to leave that question to the Big Guy. We think we have a corner of God's mercy and love and the fact is we cannot even imagine how wide is God's embrace. We also have no idea if someone is resisting the message of the Gospel because of experiences they had no control over, things that have been ingrained in them, the often bad example of Christians, etc. God alone knows the heart and he knows that if things were different who would have accepted the message of Jesus and to those salvation is offered. Jesus reminds the religious leaders of his day a couple of times that they would be surprised about who is entering the Kingdom of God. Instead of worrying about who is going where I do my best to preach the Gospel at all times and to everyone and I can't wait for the surprise of who benefits from the amazing and unimaginable merciful love of God, I know I have benefited from it already.
over the years:
If Christianity was against the Law, would there be enough
evidence to convict you ?
Q: What is the most important symbol / sign in a church ?
A: The exit sign. IE, is ANYTHING that was said today going
to stick with you when you pass the exit sign above the pews ?
Quote: FrGambleHe would often ask me if he could baptise me and it would get annoyning.
Oh, then you know how I feel every time someone approaches me with a religion pitch.
So, as the top poster here, what kind of rent are you lookin' for ?
Quote: FrGambleAnyway, about how can people be saved who have never heard of Christ...
Good answer Padre, thanks. That liberal doctrine appeals to me, as opposed to usual Protestant "Jesus or hell" point of view I keep seeing. I think there is a billboard here in Vegas off the I-15 that says that.
By the way, any and all religions are welcome to do a posthumous baptism of me. I figure it can't hurt, and there is a remote chance it will help. In other words, an advantage play after death.
Quote: FrGambleI'd like to tell a quick story about my Mormon roomate in college.....
Thank God you showed up Father.
I think I was being mistaken for a theist.