Mosca
Mosca
  • Threads: 191
  • Posts: 4140
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 11:06:59 AM permalink
Edward Davies, Mitt Romney's militantly atheist father-in-law, was indeed posthumously converted to Mormonism by his family, despite the fact that when he was alive he regarded all religions as "hogwash."

I'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.
A falling knife has no handle.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
January 27th, 2012 at 11:11:23 AM permalink
It's a good thing he got converted because now he gets his own planet to rule as a God, just like Elohim from the planet Kolob rules over the earth.

Did he really call that "hogwash"? It makes perfect sense to me.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9557
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 11:36:16 AM permalink
So this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
pokerface
pokerface
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 514
Joined: May 9, 2010
January 27th, 2012 at 11:38:50 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca


I'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.


completely agree
winning streaks come and go, losing streak never ends.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 11:50:21 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I'd be pissed at this, except it doesn't make a damn bit of difference and is actually laughable. The hubris.



It just goes to show you religious people are no more likely to be respectful of the dead than anyone else.

Did they spit on his grave, for good measure, or just dance on top of it?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26436
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 12:59:58 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

So this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!



That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
sunrise089
sunrise089
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 209
Joined: Jul 12, 2010
January 27th, 2012 at 1:33:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: odiousgambit

So this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!



That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.



As a (I hope) both respectful but also believing Protestant, I greatly admire and respect elements of Mormonism, but I agree with odiousgambit about this being silly. I take the Wizard's point about, say, Jonah and the Whale, but I think there are two key differences:

1) What's being done here is explicitly against the free will of the deceased. Even if it doesn't "matter" to him I think it's still very disrespectful.

2) In my mind at least stories like the Wizard cited, whether one believes they're true or not, are sort of of periphery importance in the faith. This is about the actual act of salvation, which in a religion that believes in such a thing should be treated with great care.
Scotty71
Scotty71
  • Threads: 19
  • Posts: 289
Joined: Mar 5, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 1:37:13 PM permalink
Fighting for real estate in heaven...
On a serious note I think the whole idea is it really indoctrinates one into the faith. If find it very weird but not as cool as "sister wives"
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." — E.E. Cummings
RaspberryCheeseBlintz
RaspberryCheeseBlintz
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 38
Joined: Oct 22, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 2:55:33 PM permalink
Quote: sunrise089

Quote: Wizard

Quote: odiousgambit

So this is why the Wizard thinks Mormonism has some appeal!!



That wasn't one of my reasons, but I don't think it is any more ridiculous than some of the things that mainstream protestants and Catholics believe. For example, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale.



As a (I hope) both respectful but also believing Protestant, I greatly admire and respect elements of Mormonism, but I agree with odiousgambit about this being silly. I take the Wizard's point about, say, Jonah and the Whale, but I think there are two key differences:

1) What's being done here is explicitly against the free will of the deceased. Even if it doesn't "matter" to him I think it's still very disrespectful.

2) In my mind at least stories like the Wizard cited, whether one believes they're true or not, are sort of of periphery importance in the faith. This is about the actual act of salvation, which in a religion that believes in such a thing should be treated with great care.



And to think, just 40 years ago, according to this "admirable" faith black people were the spawn of Shatan. Though thankfully, after several million years God reconsidered, and this is no longer said to be the case (for now anyway...God works in mysterious ways after all). Lol, but not...
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 3:16:03 PM permalink
This was a big controversy when Mormons were baptising ancestors who were Jewish Holocaust survivors. I admit I don't know much about baptism for the deceased, but it does seem a little weird.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 3:44:29 PM permalink
This is extremely depressing news.
If they can't conscript you at a young impressionable age, they wait until rigor mortis sets in.
There's no escaping the rabid theists.
萬歲言論自由。
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26436
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 3:50:06 PM permalink
Here is a link about it at mormon.org. Then click on "view all answers." Then click on "show more" for Stuart Clark. There he says, "The person who died can either receive this gift or reject it."

Thus, I don't see why the Jewish community got bothered about this. Either the Mormons were wrong, in which case what difference did it make? If they were right, then the Holocaust victims could reject the baptism and stick with their own faith. Nothing wrong with a choice.

For the non-Mormon Christians on this site, what is your explanation of what happens to those who never heard Jesus? As least with the Mormon faith they have a chance to go to the good place anyway.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 3:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


non-Mormon Christians



THAT should ruffle some feathers. I know Christians who cringe at the thought of Mormons considering themselves Christians.
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 4:00:16 PM permalink
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

- Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
January 27th, 2012 at 4:18:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


Thus, I don't see why the Jewish community got bothered about this. Either the Mormons were wrong, in which case what difference did it make? If they were right, then the Holocaust victims could reject the baptism and stick with their own faith. Nothing wrong with a choice.


By analogy, suppose Vietnam posthumously declared all the fallen US soldiers from the war to be Vietnamese citizens. Would you expect the families of those soldiers to be bothered?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26436
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 4:43:03 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

By analogy, suppose Vietnam posthumously declared all the fallen US soldiers from the war to be Vietnamese citizens. Would you expect the families of those soldiers to be bothered?



They might be, but if I were one of them I wouldn't care because it is just silly to convey citizenship to a missing dead body.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 5:11:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

There he says, "The person who died can either receive this gift or reject it."



He did reject it when he was alive and, presumably, still in command of all his faculties.
It's an easy decision to make once you're dead and know the answer anyway.

Quote: Wizard

For the non-Mormon Christians on this site, what is your explanation of what happens to those who never heard Jesus? As least with the Mormon faith they have a chance to go to the good place anyway.



Good point.
I think they claim that it is not necessary to know about Jesus to receive the same benefits allegedly enjoyed by Christians.
It all apparently depends on how you behave.
However, if Jesus' message is so important, it must place those who have been converted at a considerable unfair advantage.
Could be construed as descrimination on God's part.
萬歲言論自由。
marksolberg
marksolberg
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 205
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 5:28:13 PM permalink
Everyone should believe in whatever Santa they want to.

Mark
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 5:36:28 PM permalink
When someone dies, all that's left of her is her legacy and her memory. If you loved a perosn now dead, you should respect his or her memory, not revise it. Doing the latter is an insult and an injury, not to the dear departed, but to the part of that person that still exists in this world.

As to Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they died because they were Jewish. That's the reason they were murdered. now, some of them may have been religious, some may not ahve been. But neither case gives anyone the right to say "This Jew who was murdered because he was Jewish is now a Mormon." Or a Muslim, or a Budhist, or an atheist, or anything else.

If you hated someone who dies, then admit it and be open in your insults towards him. It's rude, it's bad manners, and it will hurt tohers still alive. But it's honest.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26436
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 6:09:48 PM permalink
Quote: victorimmature

I think they claim that it is not necessary to know about Jesus to receive the same benefits allegedly enjoyed by Christians.
It all apparently depends on how you behave.
However, if Jesus' message is so important, it must place those who have been converted at a considerable unfair advantage.
Could be construed as descrimination on God's part.



In that case missionaries may actually be doing a disservice if attempted to convert those who have never heard, especially if they were already generally good people. Suppose 90% would have made to to heaven by the "good person" test. However, once you tell them about Jesus that test no longer is applicable, if I understand it right. What if the conversion rate were less than 90%. Then the missionaries would have caused more people to go to hell.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 6:19:14 PM permalink
Let's sit around and guess at how a Christian would answer the question. Meanwhile, Christians are on their threads guessing how an atheist would answer theirs.
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 6:27:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

In that case missionaries may actually be doing a disservice if attempted to convert those who have never heard, especially if they were already generally good people. Suppose 90% would have made to to heaven by the "good person" test. However, once you tell them about Jesus that test no longer is applicable, if I understand it right. What if the conversion rate were less than 90%. Then the missionaries would have caused more people to go to hell.



I think Christains would agrue that telling people about Jesus could only improve their chances of avoiding hell.
萬歲言論自由。
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 6:48:18 PM permalink
Quote: victorimmature

Christains



This sums up the majority of your posts.
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 6:56:09 PM permalink
Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

This sums up the majority of your posts.



Sorry if I misled you.
My real motivation is this -

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/13/gop-poised-to-make-history-with-a-non-protestant-nominee/
萬歲言論自由。
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 6:57:28 PM permalink
Anyone ever read the excellent book by Jon Krakauer ?
And no, I don't mean the one about Everest or Alaska...
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
ikilledjerrylogan
ikilledjerrylogan
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 140
Joined: Aug 18, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 7:03:48 PM permalink
Quote: victorimmature

Sorry if I misled you.
My real motivation is this -

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/13/gop-poised-to-make-history-with-a-non-protestant-nominee/


No worries. I too would be interested to see how a CHRISTIAN would answer the Wizard's question.
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 7:33:11 PM permalink
Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

No worries. I too would be interested to see how a CHRISTIAN would answer the Wizard's question.



I don't know. But I like having, even momentarily, the most recent 5
posts on this site. OK, just call me Nareed jr.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
FrGamble
FrGamble
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 7:57:02 PM permalink
I'd like to tell a quick story about my Mormon roomate in college. First of all you could not find a better guy, doesn't drink or smoke, happy and fun to be around, loves his family - he was great to have as a roomate. He was also african-american and was also on the football team. He would often ask me if he could baptise me and it would get annoyning. Well one day I kind of snapped and after asking me one to many times to baptize me I blurted out, "Look do you realize a couple of decades ago you and your family couldn't even be Mormon and the only reason you are allowed to now was so that BYU could play better teams in football!" It wasn't a good moment but he stopped asking to baptize me.

Anyway, about how can people be saved who have never heard of Christ. This is summed up in the idea of 'Baptism by Desire'. What this roughly means is that if through no fault of your own you do not know Jesus or cannot believe in Him but you live your life according to the natural and innate drive to serve and care for others according to your conscience the mercy and love of God will gather you to Himself in the joys of Heaven. Evangelization is always a good thing because truly knowing Christ is a help to serving and loving others and God. However, we must keep in mind that no missionary is perfect and just because someone is introduced to Christ does not mean he or she must convert or be damned. I think it is always wise when trying to figure out who is going to hell or heaven to leave that question to the Big Guy. We think we have a corner of God's mercy and love and the fact is we cannot even imagine how wide is God's embrace. We also have no idea if someone is resisting the message of the Gospel because of experiences they had no control over, things that have been ingrained in them, the often bad example of Christians, etc. God alone knows the heart and he knows that if things were different who would have accepted the message of Jesus and to those salvation is offered. Jesus reminds the religious leaders of his day a couple of times that they would be surprised about who is entering the Kingdom of God. Instead of worrying about who is going where I do my best to preach the Gospel at all times and to everyone and I can't wait for the surprise of who benefits from the amazing and unimaginable merciful love of God, I know I have benefited from it already.
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 8:02:27 PM permalink
A couple of things that I have heard that have stuck with me
over the years:

If Christianity was against the Law, would there be enough
evidence to convict you ?

Q: What is the most important symbol / sign in a church ?

A: The exit sign. IE, is ANYTHING that was said today going
to stick with you when you pass the exit sign above the pews ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 8:32:29 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

He would often ask me if he could baptise me and it would get annoyning.



Oh, then you know how I feel every time someone approaches me with a religion pitch.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 8:36:39 PM permalink
re: This space for rent. Inquire within.

So, as the top poster here, what kind of rent are you lookin' for ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26436
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
January 27th, 2012 at 8:38:02 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, about how can people be saved who have never heard of Christ...



Good answer Padre, thanks. That liberal doctrine appeals to me, as opposed to usual Protestant "Jesus or hell" point of view I keep seeing. I think there is a billboard here in Vegas off the I-15 that says that.

By the way, any and all religions are welcome to do a posthumous baptism of me. I figure it can't hurt, and there is a remote chance it will help. In other words, an advantage play after death.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
victorimmature
victorimmature
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 68
Joined: Aug 29, 2011
January 27th, 2012 at 8:46:54 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

I'd like to tell a quick story about my Mormon roomate in college.....



Thank God you showed up Father.
I think I was being mistaken for a theist.
萬歲言論自由。
  • Jump to: