Dealers

I know we have a few dealers on the forum, and this thread is not really aimed at them, or any dealers in particular.
I am surprised that every time I go to a casino I encounter a dealer who either gives out false information or doesnt really understand the game they are dealing. They often dont know what house edge is, or what house edge the bet might have. I enjoy a fair amount of 3CP and often hear that pair plus is only reason to play it, and that its the best bet.

So I have a few questions.

1) how far does the average dealer trainning go? Do they ever explain why the player cannot beat the game, are they taught that pair plus is a good bet, so they convince the players to make it, and the house makes more money?

2) how can a dealer deal a game for years and never look it up, learn the history, the maths etc. I couldnt imagine any job I would ever take where i wouldnt want to know why I am doing what I am doing.

3) I understand that dealers have a lot going on, and they shouldnt be concerned with wins or loses, just that they should deal a good game. But do they not notice which players lose less?

I am not answering your questions but the first time I tried Ultimate Texas Holdem the dealer (Mandalay Bay) gave me lots of advice which was not only completely wrong, he actaually cited wizardofodds.com. For example he told me I should raise with K4 or better and always play the bonus bet.

There is a PGP dealer at Aria that is an older guy and everytime I have a bonus hand he loudly says "Booonnuuuus" and points to the empty betting circle (I never play the bonus.) I can't understand his motivation unless he is directly rewarded for the results of his table (I would like to know if this is true.) I can easily observe how quickly $5 bonus bets deplete the stacks of the other players and I choose not to play it. His behavior annoys me and I don't tip him.

I think the better dealers do notice the big losers. I have observed dealers point them out to the supervisior on occasion in hopes of helping them get some comps.

Maybe most players don't notice stuff like this but I am in the casino for fun. Dealers that make the game fun with a good personality get more tips from me. I think SOME casinos realize it too because I am definitely more likely to get a dealer with a good personality at Wynn or Bellagio than at the Slots O Fun. The higher end casinos hire the better dealers (for the most part.) The biggest exception is downtown where you can get some older dealers with a lot of personality that would probably never survive at Bellagio. Still most of the dealers are angry Asian women that don't say much. Even 5 years ago Binions had some really older guys dealing BJ with lots of personality.

1) Many dealers are convinced that the PP is a good bet for the same reason that gamblers are: the big payouts. No one remembers winning steadily on the ante, but everyone remembers a huge payout for a straight flush (and dealers remember the good tokes...). Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante/play combination (but this is very uncommon nowadays).

2) Just look at gamblers—they sometimes play for decades without learning correct BS for the game they play. How many gamblers have you seen even playing perfect BS at blackjack? And these people are actually willing to put up their own money at stake, while dealers are not! Most dealers have to deal several card games, so they may not know all the ins and outs of each one, especially the more modern carnival games. 3CP has been around long enough to where people should know better, but it should hardly come as any surprise that they don't. I've never once even heard a dealer give correct advice on 3CP BS ("QT or better," "any Queen," "a King or better, but sometimes play a Queen if you feel like 'gambling'"), so to imagine that they would have a deep understanding of the game is truly optimistic. This is not a slight to dealers, it's just an observation.

3) Dealers may not notice players "losing less," but if you combine somewhat large winning sessions with an unusual style of play, it tends to stick in the minds of many dealers. If you play for any big money at 3CP using your style of play, you'll be remembered.

1) Dealer training does not usually go beyond what's necessary to deal the game. In my experience, dealers are not really given instruction on what is a good or bad bet. The exception to this rule might be Craps... where the stickman is instructed to advertise proposition bets or in Baccarat, the Tie bet. But even then, it's just a general "prop bets are bad, so we need to advertise them" sort of thing. Nothing about how bad the bets are in relation to each other. How come they aren't given the odds of bets like the PP in 3CP? Much of the time, the instructor isn't familiar with these numbers either. But also, dealers aren't really supposed to give advice on how to bet... so teaching them the odds might entice them to break this policy. Finally, it's not necessary to know that in order to deal the game.

Obviously, a knowledgeable dealer is better, as far as customer service goes. If a player has questions about the game, the dealer should know how to answer many of them. But there are plenty of good dealers (mechanically) who don't know about the odds, yet still provide an entertaining experience for the customer.

2) Learning the details of casino games can be a difficult task for dealers who can deal multiple games. For some dealers, learning more than is required to deal the game is more effort than it's worth. For many of them, the extra knowledge doesn't get them anywhere. A more helpful dealer in this respect might get tipped better, but this is a reward that is hard for individual dealers to measure directly - particularly when tips are pooled (like they are in most casinos).

3) I would say that the dealers notice wins and losses just like any other player.

Quote: jml24

I can't understand his motivation unless he is directly rewarded for the results of his table (I would like to know if this is true.)

It is not true. Dealers don't get a cut of table winnings - which is why they are rooting for you to win... so that you will tip them. If you don't like a particular dealer, you don't have to tip him/her... but I would suggest even more for you to play at a different table where you are not annoyed.

Quote: jml24

I can easily observe how quickly $5 bonus bets deplete the stacks of the other players and I choose not to play it. His behavior annoys me and I don't tip him.

Have you noticed how often people who do win the bonus bet tip the dealer?

Quote: FleaStiff

Have you noticed how often people who do win the bonus bet tip the dealer?

Yes. Not often enough.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante/play combination (but this is very uncommon nowadays)..

The first time I sat at a 3CP table, I'm pretty sure this was the paytable. It was the Sands in AC and the game was still being "field tested". I had read that with that paytable, it was a pretty low HE. Just by chance, I then didn't play it for a few years. Until I found the Wizard's site a few years ago, I hadn't realized the drastic change.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. Not often enough.

Yeah those carnival games are not positive EV for dealer tips LOL

Quote: kaysirtap

eaching them the odds might entice them to break this policy. Finally, it's not necessary to know that in order to deal the game.

I beg to differ. A rudimentary understanding of the odds is fundamental to paying off odds bets, and the flustered newbies who have trouble dealing with much outside the run-of-the-mill action will take an inordinately long time (if they ever achieve it) to reach a decent degree of mastery controlling their half of the table.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante

The 1-4-6 paytable is still in use in the northeast, at least. Foxwoods still uses it (as of a couple years ago), and the tables at Turning Stone "casino" in New York state do too (as of 1½ to 2 years ago).

Do you think some dealers were told 1/4/6/30/40 was a good bet when it came out, and have stuck with it.
After all, how can changing a 4 to a 3 make *that* much difference???? Not 3 times as bad??? Na, get outta here!

Quote: SanchoPanza

I beg to differ. A rudimentary understanding of the odds is fundamental to paying off odds bets....

No it's not.

A dealer only needs to know what the odds bet pays. He need never learn that it happens to pay "true odds" or even what that means. Heck, he doesn't even need to know WHY it's called an "odds" bet.

I think that most dealers know the rules, know the edges but work in favor of the house. In October I went to Punta Cana in Dominican Republic and was playing some 3CP at Majestic Elegance besides 2 more players. The dealer, who was a woman, was trying to convince everyone to bet on their louse bonus feature. Since I was the only one that would not surrender to her cheap talk she started trying to make me look like an 'idiot' for not betting, just like it was mentioned here before.
I did feel very annoyed and went over to the blackjack pit. After 3 hours or more of play I had this conversation with a pit boss and he changed completely his atitude with me. He was very caring and talkative before and after my mention he just started looking like he didn't care.

I'd imagine the dealers in the Dominican Republic knew the bonus bet is not a good one for the player, therefore its a good one for them. Its casino versus player to them. Those players who are naive are likely to bet the bonus and tip as well. Either way, its "take the money from the players".

Even in the USA many dealers have an "us versus them" orientation. The craps table exists to provide the dealers with tips and the casino with profit and any player who obviously needs help will be told how to tip... that's it! Usually however the dealers are well aware that winning players tip better and will try to give the player proper answers to questions and sound advice. Its just that dealers are taught to deal and there are indeed dealers who think it best for a Don't-Player to declare "No Action". Just as players often have a less than perfect grasp of a game, so too are the dealers less than perfect in their knowledge. The dealer's primary task is to keep the game moving along.

I have been a dealer for more years than I want to mention. it always surprises how many dealers could care less to learn anything about the games they deal...i would say less than 1% have any idea at all. Most are concerned what days off they have or what number they are on the e.o. Thhey treat the players as a necessary evil to earn their paycheques. The few that do offer any gaming help are usually wrong anyway.

Quote: SanchoPanza

I beg to differ. A rudimentary understanding of the odds is fundamental to paying off odds bets, and the flustered newbies who have trouble dealing with much outside the run-of-the-mill action will take an inordinately long time (if they ever achieve it) to reach a decent degree of mastery controlling their half of the table.

It's not necessary to understand the relationship between an odds payoff and true odds in order to become proficient at dealing the game. Just look at all the dealers on novelty/carnival games (3CP or Caribbean Stud, for example) who have memorized the payout schedule, but have no idea what the actual odds are of receiving the hands that win.

If we're talking specifically about the odds bet in Craps, then I would say that by far most dealers understand the relationship between what they are paying and the combinations of the dice. But this says nothing about the house edge and being able to describe to a player how good a certain bet is as compared to another when we talk about Craps as a whole.

For example, stickmen (stickpeople?) can be very good at calculating prop payoffs... something that many gamblers familiar with the odds and house edges of Craps could NOT do. However, ask those stickpeople if the Yo is a better bet than Aces... or if the Hard 8 is better than the Hard 4 (not hopping) and see what happens. I have no doubt that at least some of them would give you the correct answer. But many dealers I've interacted with don't know this information and are still great at their job. I'd be curious as to how many of those dealers who got the answer right are, or were Craps players.

I like to play the fool and keep saying "... and I was going to bet that!" when it is pointed out that the sucker bet pays off. Then when it is suggested I bet it, I tell them I go with my hunches only, and it is a jinx when someone pushes a bet. Keep 'em guessing.

Here is my take from my attempt at dealer school. Comments of some others may be repeated here.

This dealer school was run by the casino. In craps we were taught about "house edge" but it was not taught as a % and if percents were talked about it was not talked about in great detail. In fact, when we talked about hopping bets I was the only one to calculate a percent. Instructor says, "If the chances are 36-1 to roll a 6-6 and we give 30-1 what is our edge?" He sort-of led the class to say, "six bets of 36" while I was blurting out "20%." Soon as I did he gave a good-knowing look at me. If not for this site, however, I would have not known the %s for the most part.

Craps was taught at a higher-level than BJ. Craps got you more "whys" explained. BJ seemed to me more of a "we need 200 people to deal this game, lets get them trained and the good ones we will groom for supervisor jobs."

How can they go for years and never look it up? Simple, look at how many other people never want to learn more than the basics of their jobs. To plenty in delaler school the mentality was that the job paid well and you needed not a great deal of education, certainly not college, to make $40K. So dummy up and turn the cards. Of course it doesn't help that many pit-bosses prefer near-robots with a personality who never call in sick. IOW, dealers are not much different than any other entry-level job.

Quote: appistapp1s

I have been a dealer for more years than I want to mention. it always surprises how many dealers could care less to learn anything about the games they deal...i would say less than 1% have any idea at all. Most are concerned what days off they have or what number they are on the e.o. Thhey treat the players as a necessary evil to earn their paycheques. The few that do offer any gaming help are usually wrong anyway.

Don't you just love it when a dealer offers a novice players advice? Like " When I have a 6 up, I almost always bust. But with a deuce I hardly ever bust. That why a deuce is called the dealer's Ace " Worse yet the dealer believes he is helping !!

Quote: WizardofEngland

Do you think some dealers were told 1/4/6/30/40 was a good bet when it came out, and have stuck with it.
After all, how can changing a 4 to a 3 make *that* much difference???? Not 3 times as bad??? Na, get outta here!

My favorite dealer response when Par-a-Dice in East Peoria changed the payout from 4 to 3...

"Most people play $10 on the Pairs Plus. A 3-1 payout is very simple: 1 green chip ($25) and 1 red chip ($5). The cameras were having a hard time figuring out when they were being paid wrong before."

I also noticed that all the casinos up in NY offered 4-1 on the payout. I said something to the dealer, saying I hadn't played the game in years since I hadn't seen that payout for a while. He said b/c of Indian Gaming Law there is no chance of them changing it anytime soon. I guess that's good for players.

Quote: WizardofEngland

2) how can a dealer deal a game for years and never look it up, learn the history, the maths etc. I couldnt imagine any job I would ever take where i wouldnt want to know why I am doing what I am doing.

Logical people who care about their job want to know everything they can. However, most people are sheep, walking through their job with no reason to be inquisitive. I work for a nice retail establishment, and yet most people who work for the company can't tell you any history or much information beyond what is trained. I of course can tell you useless information... there's a learning curve.

Quote: WizardofEngland

3) I understand that dealers have a lot going on, and they shouldnt be concerned with wins or loses, just that they should deal a good game. But do they not notice which players lose less?

This, to me, seems irrelevant. I play near perfect basic strategy when I play Double Deck BJ, but I get my A$$ handed to me every time I play. I could play like an idiot and win.

To that end, when a game's rules change or odds change for the better of the house, I have had a SMALL number of dealers comment on how players don't play as long as they used to. Most of them chalk it up to bad luck since they changed the rules, rather than an increase in house edge.

Quote: AZDuffman

He sort-of led the class to say, "six bets of 36" while I was blurting out "20%." Soon as I did he gave a good-knowing look at me. If not for this site, however, I would have not known the %s for the most part.

That's the wrong answer. 30 to 1 has a house edge of 13.89% (or 16.66% if it pays 30 -for- 1).