WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
Joined: Nov 2, 2010
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December 16th, 2011 at 10:09:55 AM permalink
I know we have a few dealers on the forum, and this thread is not really aimed at them, or any dealers in particular.
I am surprised that every time I go to a casino I encounter a dealer who either gives out false information or doesnt really understand the game they are dealing. They often dont know what house edge is, or what house edge the bet might have. I enjoy a fair amount of 3CP and often hear that pair plus is only reason to play it, and that its the best bet.

So I have a few questions.

1) how far does the average dealer trainning go? Do they ever explain why the player cannot beat the game, are they taught that pair plus is a good bet, so they convince the players to make it, and the house makes more money?

2) how can a dealer deal a game for years and never look it up, learn the history, the maths etc. I couldnt imagine any job I would ever take where i wouldnt want to know why I am doing what I am doing.

3) I understand that dealers have a lot going on, and they shouldnt be concerned with wins or loses, just that they should deal a good game. But do they not notice which players lose less?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
jml24
jml24
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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December 16th, 2011 at 10:32:32 AM permalink
I am not answering your questions but the first time I tried Ultimate Texas Holdem the dealer (Mandalay Bay) gave me lots of advice which was not only completely wrong, he actaually cited wizardofodds.com. For example he told me I should raise with K4 or better and always play the bonus bet.

There is a PGP dealer at Aria that is an older guy and everytime I have a bonus hand he loudly says "Booonnuuuus" and points to the empty betting circle (I never play the bonus.) I can't understand his motivation unless he is directly rewarded for the results of his table (I would like to know if this is true.) I can easily observe how quickly $5 bonus bets deplete the stacks of the other players and I choose not to play it. His behavior annoys me and I don't tip him.

I think the better dealers do notice the big losers. I have observed dealers point them out to the supervisior on occasion in hopes of helping them get some comps.

Maybe most players don't notice stuff like this but I am in the casino for fun. Dealers that make the game fun with a good personality get more tips from me. I think SOME casinos realize it too because I am definitely more likely to get a dealer with a good personality at Wynn or Bellagio than at the Slots O Fun. The higher end casinos hire the better dealers (for the most part.) The biggest exception is downtown where you can get some older dealers with a lot of personality that would probably never survive at Bellagio. Still most of the dealers are angry Asian women that don't say much. Even 5 years ago Binions had some really older guys dealing BJ with lots of personality.
LonesomeGambler
LonesomeGambler
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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December 16th, 2011 at 10:39:20 AM permalink
1) Many dealers are convinced that the PP is a good bet for the same reason that gamblers are: the big payouts. No one remembers winning steadily on the ante, but everyone remembers a huge payout for a straight flush (and dealers remember the good tokes...). Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante/play combination (but this is very uncommon nowadays).

2) Just look at gamblers—they sometimes play for decades without learning correct BS for the game they play. How many gamblers have you seen even playing perfect BS at blackjack? And these people are actually willing to put up their own money at stake, while dealers are not! Most dealers have to deal several card games, so they may not know all the ins and outs of each one, especially the more modern carnival games. 3CP has been around long enough to where people should know better, but it should hardly come as any surprise that they don't. I've never once even heard a dealer give correct advice on 3CP BS ("QT or better," "any Queen," "a King or better, but sometimes play a Queen if you feel like 'gambling'"), so to imagine that they would have a deep understanding of the game is truly optimistic. This is not a slight to dealers, it's just an observation.

3) Dealers may not notice players "losing less," but if you combine somewhat large winning sessions with an unusual style of play, it tends to stick in the minds of many dealers. If you play for any big money at 3CP using your style of play, you'll be remembered.
kaysirtap
kaysirtap
Joined: Nov 1, 2011
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December 16th, 2011 at 11:14:06 AM permalink
1) Dealer training does not usually go beyond what's necessary to deal the game. In my experience, dealers are not really given instruction on what is a good or bad bet. The exception to this rule might be Craps... where the stickman is instructed to advertise proposition bets or in Baccarat, the Tie bet. But even then, it's just a general "prop bets are bad, so we need to advertise them" sort of thing. Nothing about how bad the bets are in relation to each other. How come they aren't given the odds of bets like the PP in 3CP? Much of the time, the instructor isn't familiar with these numbers either. But also, dealers aren't really supposed to give advice on how to bet... so teaching them the odds might entice them to break this policy. Finally, it's not necessary to know that in order to deal the game.

Obviously, a knowledgeable dealer is better, as far as customer service goes. If a player has questions about the game, the dealer should know how to answer many of them. But there are plenty of good dealers (mechanically) who don't know about the odds, yet still provide an entertaining experience for the customer.

2) Learning the details of casino games can be a difficult task for dealers who can deal multiple games. For some dealers, learning more than is required to deal the game is more effort than it's worth. For many of them, the extra knowledge doesn't get them anywhere. A more helpful dealer in this respect might get tipped better, but this is a reward that is hard for individual dealers to measure directly - particularly when tips are pooled (like they are in most casinos).

3) I would say that the dealers notice wins and losses just like any other player.
Quote: jml24

I can't understand his motivation unless he is directly rewarded for the results of his table (I would like to know if this is true.)

It is not true. Dealers don't get a cut of table winnings - which is why they are rooting for you to win... so that you will tip them. If you don't like a particular dealer, you don't have to tip him/her... but I would suggest even more for you to play at a different table where you are not annoyed.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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December 16th, 2011 at 11:23:01 AM permalink
Quote: jml24

I can easily observe how quickly $5 bonus bets deplete the stacks of the other players and I choose not to play it. His behavior annoys me and I don't tip him.

Have you noticed how often people who do win the bonus bet tip the dealer?
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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December 16th, 2011 at 2:32:17 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Have you noticed how often people who do win the bonus bet tip the dealer?


Yes. Not often enough.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
cclub79
cclub79
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
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December 16th, 2011 at 2:42:39 PM permalink
Quote: LonesomeGambler

Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante/play combination (but this is very uncommon nowadays)..



The first time I sat at a 3CP table, I'm pretty sure this was the paytable. It was the Sands in AC and the game was still being "field tested". I had read that with that paytable, it was a pretty low HE. Just by chance, I then didn't play it for a few years. Until I found the Wizard's site a few years ago, I hadn't realized the drastic change.
ncfatcat
ncfatcat
Joined: Jun 25, 2011
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December 16th, 2011 at 2:57:11 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. Not often enough.


Yeah those carnival games are not positive EV for dealer tips LOL
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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December 16th, 2011 at 3:51:07 PM permalink
Quote: kaysirtap

eaching them the odds might entice them to break this policy. Finally, it's not necessary to know that in order to deal the game.


I beg to differ. A rudimentary understanding of the odds is fundamental to paying off odds bets, and the flustered newbies who have trouble dealing with much outside the run-of-the-mill action will take an inordinately long time (if they ever achieve it) to reach a decent degree of mastery controlling their half of the table.
JB
Administrator
JB
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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December 16th, 2011 at 3:59:11 PM permalink
Quote: LonesomeGambler

Incidentally, the 1/4/6/30/40 paytable is in fact a better bet than the ante


The 1-4-6 paytable is still in use in the northeast, at least. Foxwoods still uses it (as of a couple years ago), and the tables at Turning Stone "casino" in New York state do too (as of 1½ to 2 years ago).

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