Copyright concern

Sometimes I'll read a book or story, or see a TV show or movie, which leaves me so dissatisfied I'll think up a different ending or other improvements (in my view). It's a small intellectual exercise. I'd say it's pointless, except sometimes I get a good idea out of it.

This happened recently when I saw an old episode of Law & Order SVU.

The idea germinated, mixed itself with other stray story ideas, and today it flashed upon me like the Sun. However, there remain enough similarities with the old re-run that I'm concerned about infringing copyright.

I don't want to say much about it. I've found the more I talk about a story the less I want to write it, and I really want to write this one. So here are a few details about the copyright issues:

1) I'm using the same kind of victim as the SVU show.
2) I'm using the same kind of crime as the SVU show.
3) There is a lead female detective who sympathizes with the accused and tries to help her out, which also happened on the show.

That's about it. The rest of the story is completely different, has a different climax and a different ending. In fact it's not about the victim, the accused, the detective or the DA, but rather about the defense lawyer. In fact, since there's a twist after the climax, the lawyer has to be a secondary character (or seem to be one).

I can't change the victim or the crime, as the story hinges on them, and I don't want to change the detective, as her dream was what got my story started (there are three dreams in the story, all very important). I can reduce the detective's role, and in fact I will. I'll also change the accused's sympathetic family member for a sympathetic teacher.

So, does anyone care to hazard a guess about infringement?

Quote: Nareed

1) I'm using the same kind of victim as the SVU show.
2) I'm using the same kind of crime as the SVU show.
3) There is a lead female detective who sympathizes with the accused and tries to help her out, which also happened on the show.

That's about it. The rest of the story is completely different, has a different climax and a different ending.

I'm no copyright attorney but I'd say you're in the clear. #1 and #2 have a very small range of options, and #3 is basically the detective's job. It's a genre piece - the beginning is supposed to be familiar and it's the development and ending that makes it yours. Here's an old one: girl with really long hair trapped in a tower, rescued by dashing young adventurer - you've heard the story many times before. And it was released today in movie theaters - Disney's "Tangled". If Disney can take old, familiar pieces and re-arrange them, why not you?

So many times similar ideas occur in synchronicity over distance, it's uncanny. It happen to one of my game designs, and I was beaten by a few months. There was no work-around, and there didn't need to be; the other guy owned it and me.

But if there's a work around, or enough difference, you do not have to abandon anything.

In Disney's case, the children's story was already public domain, but for written works there IS a long period of coverage; copyrights I believe are longer than patents.

I assume you file and register your works with the screenwriter's guild.

When in doubt, discuss with a copyright and trademark attorney, they can be invaluable, even a life, product, or script saver.

Quote: MathExtremist

And it was released today in movie theaters - Disney's "Tangled". If Disney can take old, familiar pieces and re-arrange them, why not you?

Oh, Disney's notorious for adapting old stories. This goes back to Walt Disney himself. Snow White, Cinderella, The Jungle Book, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, etc etc. Only they mostly stick to, as Dan pointed out, stories long in the public domain.

But I tend to agree I'm in the clear. Right now I'm working on minimizing the similarities so they appear generic. That should be enough.

Law and Order : SVU and CSI : NY have both borrowed heavily on various other stories, both real and fictional.

And that's just from the episodes I've watched....

Quote: Paigowdan

So many times similar ideas occur in synchronicity over distance, it's uncanny. It happen to one of my game designs, and I was beaten by a few months. There was no work-around, and there didn't need to be; the other guy owned it and me.

Some years ago I wrote a short story called "Golden." It's about an artificial being named Golden who gets shipped out, not against her will but regardless of it, on a multi-generation interstellar ark. I emailed it to an internet acquaintance and he told me "Your story is much like Orson Scott Card's 'Lovelock.'"

Indeed, Lovelock is an artificial being who gets shipped out on an interstellar ark regardless of his will. We both even used the main character's name as a title!

But that was mere coincidence, making use of old science fiction fodder. There are other similarities, but the stories are different. For one thing I have a happy ending, for another the beings in question are very different, and most important Card's a much better writer than I am. Still, I was so unnerved by all that I've more or less abandoned poor Golden and her story.

Quote:

I assume you file and register your works with the screenwriter's guild.

Well, no. I write stories and novels, not screenplays. Copyright is very different from patents. For one thing you don't have to register a work in order for it to be copyrighted, merely writing it does that (of course that complicates things in case of disputes). Also, as you pointed out, copyrights last a lot loner. Right now in the US the length of a copyright for a work of fiction is the lifetime of the author plus 75 years, in the case of individual authors. Works for hire and corporate copyrights operate under slightly different rules.

Quote: thecesspit

Law and Order : SVU and CSI : NY have both borrowed heavily on various other stories, both real and fictional.

And that's just from the episodes I've watched....

Hear, hear!

The Law & Order franchise, especially the late, lamented original L&O tended to rip cases off the headlines. I'll give them credit, though, because the shows usually went on to different paths than the real-world crimes. Besides current events are public domain too.

I would not be particularly concerned in this situation. Extending direction and scope with your own material is universal.
Elsewhere I've recently mentioned the Humphrey Bogart film In A Lonely Place. It was a film made after a Hollywood producer bought the rights to the year's best selling novel. After having paid, they then decided to change the character from merely having a minor pretense of screenwriting so as tap someone's generosity to actually being a script writer. They also changed the character from clearly being guilty to clearly being innocent. For all those changes, they needn't have paid the book author at all but they wanted the rights first and lawyers like it that way.

Quote: FleaStiff

After having paid, they then decided to change the character from merely having a minor pretense of screenwriting so as tap someone's generosity to actually being a script writer. They also changed the character from clearly being guilty to clearly being innocent. For all those changes, they needn't have paid the book author at all but they wanted the rights first and lawyers like it that way.

Sometimes movie studios or film makers will buy the rights to a book when they intend to change it almost beyond recognition, because that way they also have a right to the characters, the title and the setting. I suppose sometimes this works, but most often you wind up with butchered versions of great stories like "The Bicentennial Man," or "Starship Troopers."

That's a pitfall many writers face when offered tons of Hollywood money (tons for the average writer). I count myself lucky that I favor reading books over watching movies. But I must admit TV shows can produce great drama. Indeed I'll say the best science fiction, outside of print, these days is found on TV.

BTW I still don't want to say much about my story, but I have to ask about the peculiar structure i devised for it:

Essentially the story is divided in parts, each featuring a different point of view character. Titles beaing easy to come by, I named each part. I'd like input on how these sound, naturally there's no way to judge whether the titles are appropriate to the subject matter:

The Detective's Dream
The Victim
The Lawyer
The Detective
The Detective's Trial
The Warrior
The Victim's Dream
The Lawyer's Crime
The Warrior's Dream

I should note "The Warrior" reffers to the District Attorney.

I had thought to cal the detective "The Angel" and the victim "The Hero," but that would give too much away too soon and be as subtle as a platoon of tanks driving down the Strip. Of course seen like that I should call the DA "The DA" rather than "The Warrior."

Mark Billingham, one of my favourite crime writers, tells a story of how one of his books was taken lock stock and barrel as the plot for the first episode of (I think) CSI:NY. Down to one of the victims names matching. He got nothing for his pains apart from a letter offering him a job interview as a writer for the show.

He turned that down.

The story's coming along quite well. yesterday on a long, long drive and a longer wait, I got it all planned (yay!) I won't say another word about it til I finish it, but I need some input on a question.


WARNING!! VERY DISTURBING IMAGERY AHEAD!!!!





PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!









YOU'VE BEEN WARNED





Ok. Here it is. Which would you find more disturbing and or horrifying:

1) A barn with seven dead, mutilated bodies in varying stages of decomposition or

2) One human arm being cooked in its own blood in an oven set to very low heat

Sorry for asking this, but the story begins with the Detective witnessing something that shocks even a hardened cop.

And thanks.

Quote: Nareed

So, does anyone care to hazard a guess about infringement?

Maybe http://www.keithpurtell.com/kthings/gway_plag.htm will help.

Quote: Nareed

1) A barn with seven dead, mutilated bodies in varying stages of decomposition or

2) One human arm being cooked in its own blood in an oven set to very low heat

Sorry for asking this, but the story begins with the Detective witnessing something that shocks even a hardened cop.

And thanks.

I vote option 2. As an avid fan of the genre, I find option 2 worse. Option 1 can be rationalised down to just more bodies. It takes a special type of psycho for option 2. Plus there is more mystery to option 2, as you start wondering what happened to the rest of the body.

Quote: Croupier

I vote option 2. As an avid fan of the genre, I find option 2 worse. Option 1 can be rationalised down to just more bodies. It takes a special type of psycho for option 2.

Thanks.

I also figure the second option represents a worse dessecration of human remains.

Minor update, should anyone care:


I got the outline done. It's 13 pages long, double spaced, a bit over 3,100 words. The story is divided into nine parts. I've no idea how long it will be, but judging from the outline I'm afraid I have a novel on my hands, at least a novella.

I found a good title, too. I'm calling it "Keeping Secrets."

And that's the last I'll say about it. If/when I'm done with it I'll post about it.

Another minor update, should anyone care:

I'm almost done with part one. I've been going too slowly because 1) I've been putting in very long hours at work, so I'm too tired to write even on the weekends and 2) I've been developing outlines for five other stories.

The titles for the parts are settled thus:

The Detective's Dream
The Victim
The Detective
The Lawyer
The Detective's Trial
The Victim's Dream
The D.A.
Absolution
The D.A.'s Dream

Much to my surprise I've relegated the Victim's role to almost secondary importance, but that works out pretty well, too. I've wound up showing the effect the Victim has on three other people. In fact, the Detective winds up as the lead character for most of the story, showing up to distill character twists in other parts of the story. That's ok, as on the other stories I'm working on, all with a similar type of character to the Victim, I've managed to assign them the lead parts.

As I said before the titles really should refer to the Detective as the Angel, the Victim as the Hero and the D.A. as the Warrior; and I'm not saying what the Lawyer should be called. As I also said before, that would give to much away.

Finally, when I'm done with part 2, The Victim, I may ask for guinea pigs to try the story on. Part 2 has the first plot twist, really the first plot, too.

BTW my current sig is a quotation from part four.

Quote: Nareed

Which would you find more disturbing and or horrifying:
A barn with seven dead, mutilated bodies in varying stages of decomposition or
One human arm being cooked in its own blood in an oven set to very low heat

I'd vote for the second option but it really depends in the manner in which it is revealed. Opening a barn door and suddenly seeing all seven corpses is not particularly subtle, I think the low-set oven with an arm in a roasting pan might be done in a very subtle manner.

The barn could be done with a walk, a few flies, a stuck door that suddenly gives way ... to reveal a spectacle.
The oven can be done more slowly, more deftly and a more sudden, unexpected impact.

Quote: FleaStiff

The oven can be done more slowly, more deftly and a more sudden, unexpected impact.

I'm not going for subtlety. the scene merely sets the detective's mood. In fact the opening of the story goes:

Detective Alyssa Carson recoiled at the stench.

Anyway, I tried editing the post before with more info, but connection problems shot that down. I'll explain more as I have time.

and thanks.

This is for another story entirely.

Suppose you 1) are very much in love with a woman you are about to marry and 2) own a ring that represents you, it has your personally chosen symbol for yourself on it, plus the name of a firm you founded and the date of its inception.

Your bride asks to borrow your ring because she wants to wear it at the wedding. You agree. On the day of the wedding she's wearing your ring on a chain around her neck, with the ring resting right between her breasts (over her gown, naturally).

What would you think of such a gesture?

Quote: Nareed

Another minor update, should anyone care:

So all parts are settled, I've a full outline, I've completed part one, and have made a very small start on part two.

Part two is proving very difficult to write. There's an attempted rape that escalates to attempted murder, and I have the victim narrate the ordeal. At the same time she has to bond with the detective. Actually there's a device for that, but it can't all be the device. I've made notes to explain what goes on, but it's not easy translating them into a narrative and dialogue.

Once I'm through with part two it only gets harder <sigh>