Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
October 25th, 2010 at 12:04:01 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

Well yeah, of.course the coin flip helps determine the outcome of the game as well. The effects of all the plays are cumulative. But, especially in close games, you can generally look to one play that 'caused' that outcome. Just ask San Diego, a few inches to the left, and tie game.



In football you win by grabbing the lead as early as possible and not eltting it go. If you fail to do that, then you may or may not lose. But if you lose it won't be because of one play.

Any number of factors influence the game. Some you can control, others not. Some you can just influence.

Quote:

That being said, every offensive play is drawn up to be a touchdown. So the inability to have a 'sucessful' play every down affects the outcome of every game.



Not so. Most plays are designed for a specific range of yardage. A QB sneak on, say, 3rd and inches is designed to move the ball forward one yard at most. A screen pass to a runninback hopes for an advance between, say, 5 and 20 yards realistically. Sure sometimes the back will perform brilliantly, or the defense will screw up, or a blocker will get away with holding a defender, and the ayrdage may be impressive, but that's not the norm.

Quote:

Perhaps we just have a philosophical disagreement.



No. You're just wrong. :)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
avargov
avargov
Joined: Aug 5, 2010
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 615
October 25th, 2010 at 12:30:18 PM permalink
I wonder, respectfully, if.you have ever played or coached football. If you have, then you would surely know that every play in the playbook is designed to score a touchdown. The probability of.a QB.sneak going for 60 is very small, but if all offensive assignments are performed flawlessly, the ball carrier needs to beat one man for paydirt. Conversely, every defensive scheme is designed to stop the ball at the point of attack. Mostly, factors on both sides determine the outcome of the play.

As my old coach used to say, the most important play of the game is the one that is lined up now.

In most games, a small handfull of plays can be pinpointed in winning or losing.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 229
  • Posts: 6451
October 25th, 2010 at 12:35:03 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Fumbles are handled very oddly in football. Very rarely does it happen that one player is seen to have possession and that's it. The assumption seems to be that no one can possibly have maintained confirmed control in a big pile without the officials peeling everyone off and seeing who has it on the bottom at that time.

This was not done in this situation. Note that the players are severely criticized when they make the assumption that a loose ball is a dead ball. They are coached to assume a loose ball is live [the failure to do this killed San Diego this weekend too, an assumed "incomplete pass" turned out to *not* be a "forward pass", the latter the only kind that can be ruled simply incomplete. I'm sure all fans saw that one too.] So, I say, the referees should come under criticism for not doing there job here, too. No assumptions that a loose ball is a dead ball by them either, please!



I believe the initial call on the field was a Rothlisberger touchdown. This call made the post touchdown scrum meaningless to the officials. Overturning the touchdown on review is similar to a play being incorrectly called dead due an inadvertent whistle. The eventual ruling, while not popular, was correct.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
October 25th, 2010 at 12:47:10 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

I wonder, respectfully, if.you have ever played or coached football. If you have, then you would surely know that every play in the playbook is designed to score a touchdown.



I've never played or coached. But I've been watching NFL football for over thirty years. I can say that if every offensive play is meant to score a TD, then play designers should get out of the business, because the vast majority of plays fail then. Likewise for defensive plays. Sometime you mak eht other team lose yards, but msot often they will advance.

It's simply ridiculous and wasteful to expect results that experience shows you are rare.


Quote:

In most games, a small handfull of plays can be pinpointed in winning or losing.



Given how a game goes, you can point to a few defining plays. But that's erroneous.

When the Bills failed to make a field goal and lost the Superbowl, the question wasn't why the kicker failed to score, but why the Bills found themselves in the difficult position of having to score a field goal at the last second in order to win.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
October 25th, 2010 at 1:36:13 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

I wonder, respectfully, if.you have ever played or coached football. If you have, then you would surely know that every play in the playbook is designed to score a touchdown. The probability of.a QB.sneak going for 60 is very small, but if all offensive assignments are performed flawlessly, the ball carrier needs to beat one man for paydirt. Conversely, every defensive scheme is designed to stop the ball at the point of attack. Mostly, factors on both sides determine the outcome of the play.



I have, and only some plays were designed for big gains. I can think of many examples were the play is designed not to go for gold, but to get a first down, to set up future plays or to test out certain areas of the field. Yes, in some cases they may score, but that's a happy co-incidence. Now, Mike Martz might design every play for a TD, but Bill Belichick's possession football certainly isn't.

Quote:


As my old coach used to say, the most important play of the game is the one that is lined up now.

In most games, a small handfull of plays can be pinpointed in winning or losing.



Hindsight is 20/20.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
avargov
avargov
Joined: Aug 5, 2010
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 615
October 25th, 2010 at 1:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I have, and only some plays were designed for big gains. I can think of many examples were the play is designed not to go for gold, but to get a first down, to set up future plays or to test out certain areas of the field. Yes, in some cases they may score, but that's a happy co-incidence. Now, Mike Martz might design every play for a TD, but Bill Belichick's possession football certainly isn't.



That is because the guy on the other side of the LoS gets paid as well. Down and distance plays a huge role in play selection. But I can assure you that the halfback dive over left guard is 'designed' to go 80.and a TD, however the strong side linebacker who shakes the seal block from the left tackle to blow up the B gap gives the play a 2 yard gain.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 8073
October 25th, 2010 at 1:57:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

[I believe the initial call on the field was a Rothlisberger touchdown. This call made the post touchdown scrum meaningless to the officials. Overturning the touchdown on review is similar to a play being incorrectly called dead due an inadvertent whistle. The eventual ruling, while not popular, was correct.



ah, but they reviewed the play for 10 minutes to see if they could tell who wound up with the football. That was going to be it if it could be determined it seems. Thus it seems important to always establish this on the field. The whistle probably *had* blown.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
October 25th, 2010 at 2:03:08 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

That is because the guy on the other side of the LoS gets paid as well. Down and distance plays a huge role in play selection. But I can assure you that the halfback dive over left guard is 'designed' to go 80.and a TD, however the strong side linebacker who shakes the seal block from the left tackle to blow up the B gap gives the play a 2 yard gain.



We will have to disagree to agree then. The design of the play you describe is aiming to gain some short yardage on the ground. It might have the consequence to go 80 yards, but the coach isn't working out the X and O's in the case to go 80 yards. Not in my experience of watching, playing and reading about the game. I'll note, however, I didn't play at any US level, so maybe life is different where I learnt the game... but field position was a driver.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
avargov
avargov
Joined: Aug 5, 2010
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 615
October 25th, 2010 at 3:40:52 PM permalink
I actually think we are.on the same page. I am only stating that o plays are designed to make a td. That would require perfect execution. That isnt possible, so plays are selected based on a number of factors. Field position, down and distance, opponent weakness...but in the playbook, they all go for a td.

Coaches notoriously go the conservative route. Up the middle on 3rd and 1.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 229
  • Posts: 6451
October 25th, 2010 at 3:47:42 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

Coaches notoriously go the conservative route. Up the middle on 3rd and 1.



The shortest distance between two points is a straight line... Unless you're MKL.. then it is a curve... or Nareed, in which case, chaos makes it better to go in any other direction...hehe
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

  • Jump to: