A small matter of time
Larry built a time machine that allows him to travel back in time exactly 99 minutes. No more and no less. He figures he can use it to cheat at roulette without getting caught. So he sits at a roulette table making minnimum bets (outside bets mostly) and writing down every number that comes up. After 85 minutes of this, he goes up to his room and hands the number list to his acomplice, Daryl.
Daryl goes back in time 99 minutes and makes his way to the roulette table. It's easy to find, since it's the one he sees Larry playing at. So Daryl buys in for, say, $1,000 and settles down to play.
He begins by making small bets on three numbers: the one that's next according to Larry's list, plus two more. To his astonishment, his number doesn't come up. He figures he made some mistake, and it doesn't matter much, so he keeps on playing.
But as the game progresses, few of his numbers come up. Because of this, he never raises his bets much. Halfway through he starts keeping records of the numbers. After he watches Larry leave the table, he waits fourteen minutes and leaves (he takes a different route up to his room in order to avoid meeting himself, BTW).
Naturally he has it out with Larry. After arguing and finger-pointing, Larry realizes that the time Daryl took buying in changed the course of events, which changed the starting conditions, which changed what numbers came up.
Ok. The problem I have is this: can Daryl manage to buy in and start play without changing things? If he can, then the scheme should work. It's essential to the story that it not work. I can't think of a way, but I don't want to leave a plot hole wide open. Then they can try the second thing to cheat the casino, then they can reach the climax.
Thanks.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/646-a-fool-proof-system-to-beat-roulette/
The timing problem you suggest can be easily overcome by simply being aware that a timing issue could occur, then compare two results to what's on the list to find the starting point.
But, as is pointed out in the thread I linked, once Daryl arrives, his action will throw off the dealer's timing, so the results will change. If not for the first spin, then certainly once he has to start paying off the extra player and raking and sorting the extra losing chips.
Of course, I don't know how this would affect the story: If Larry has in front of him a copy of his back-to-the-future-in-the-past number list, should he still be writing down the numbers for each roll? If not, how would the list get to the past in the first place. If so, why not just take the list that Daryl gave to him and give it back to Daryl upstairs. This leads to the usual time-travel paradox, I think.
Quote: Nareed.Ok. The problem I have is this: can Daryl manage to buy in and start play without changing things?
This question is impossible to answer without defining first exactly what actions can and cannot "change things".
Suppose, there is a wormhole between the casino floor and Daryl's room, running through which takes you 99 minutes back in time. Larry could run through it, and hand Daryl the list of numbers, he'll then walk back down and start playing.
First of all, why do you assume this won't work?
Is it because the dealer will have to alter his actions to acknowledge the new player, and hand him the chips? This can be easily fixed. Daryl can sit at the table the whole time instead of waiting in his room. Larry would just have to walk down the stairs, find Daryl at the table, and hand him the list of numbers without distracting the dealer.
One can argue, that this is not possible too, because Larry appearing behind Daryl's shoulder will distract the dealer sufficiently.
In fact, the way it is usually seen is that the very act of traveling into the past disturbs the fabric of space-time creating an alternate reality, so that the time traveler ends up in a different universe than the one he started in. This is the common way to avoid conflicts with causality principal when talking about traveling into the past.
Quote: DJTeddyBearFirst, read the short fiction in the first post in this thread:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/646-a-fool-proof-system-to-beat-roulette/
I have. It's pretty good, and it made me realize Roulette is the natural target for this sort of story, both for the payout and the long list of numbers.
I can also assure you poor Larry and Daryl won't get away so easy.
Quote:But, as is pointed out in the thread I linked, once Daryl arrives, his action will throw off the dealer's timing, so the results will change. If not for the first spin, then certainly once he has to start paying off the extra player and raking and sorting the extra losing chips.
Just so. Not to mention that maybe Daryl takes the place of the cute redhead who'd have been there otherwise, and whom the dealer tried to spin numbers her way (ask Croupier about hsi experiments in controlled spins).
It really doesn't matter what they do, they can't be certain they'll win. But at that point in the story they don't know that. If they don't, then they should either try again or at least argue about it.
Any chance you're a Newhart fan?Quote: Nareed...(he takes a different route up to his room in order to avoid meeting himself, BTW).
Bob Newhart's 80's TV show, Newhart, featured, amoung other odd characters, a guy named Larry who always had two accomplices which he introduced as, "Hi, I'm Larry, this is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl."
And in your story, the main guy is named Larry, and you want the two Daryls to avoid meeting each other. And your Daryl spells his name with one R, while Newhart's two Darryls use two Rs each...
Hmmm....
Quote: DJTeddyBearAny chance you're a Newhart fan?
No. But say "Larry, Darryl and Darryl," and I still smile. As I recall Darryl and Darryl spoke only once in the entire run of the show.
Actually I named the lead Larry after Larry Niven. It's kind of a joke, because Niven has stated in derisive fashion that time travel is fantasy. So putting him in a time travel story where such travel causes problems struck me as appropriate.
Having thought of that name, though, the Daryl just flowed out naturally. And it is a very tenous reference to Newhart.
Hmm. Got to work in the phrase "Are you the chief boogieman?" in there somehow. I can't even remember the name of that movie....
Quote: thecesspitYou should take a look at Primer for a film that deals with time travel in a very interesting way...
I second that, though I'm still not certain I have the film's chronology completely figured out.
So your scenario cannot exist -- unless Larry wrote the numbers down wrong. If he wrote the correct numbers down and gave them to Daryl later in the hotel room, then Daryl was already there at the table playing them correctly and winning the whole time.
Quote: austintxMy understanding of space/time is that any particular time and place (or whatever other dimensions you include) is an absolute. You can't "change" things. In other words, at that particular moment if Larry is there writing down the numbers at Roulette to later give to Daryl in the hotel room to go back in time and play, then the Daryl is already there at the table playing those same numbers that were given to him by Larry at the later time (and betting big and winning).
So your scenario cannot exist -- unless Larry wrote the numbers down wrong. If he wrote the correct numbers down and gave them to Daryl later in the hotel room, then Daryl was already there at the table playing them correctly and winning the whole time.
You could make that argument about every story involving time travel backwards. Basically, you run into the grandfather paradox. If you could travel backwards in time, you could kill your grandfather, which would mean you would never have been born in the first place to do it. A common solution to this paradox is to suggest that at the moment you travel back in time you create a parallel universe, and you can only affect the new one. I find it easier to just accept time travel on faith for purposes of enjoying the story. Albeit, all the time traveling on Lost was hard to keep straight.
Quote: AyecarumbaGiven the inherent problems with a player disrupting the flow of the game, it doesn't seem likely that someone who went to all the trouble to travel back in time would pick Roulette. Keno seems a more logical game to win huge money with a little future knowledge, and an additional player opting in would not affect the flow of the draw.
I disagree. Just one extra person playing might delay the game by a second. That extra person moving about the casino could also change the temperature or air currents slightly to effect the outcome. I still say if I could go back in time by 99 minutes, I'd pick baccarat.
Quote: WizardI disagree. Just one extra person playing might delay the game by a second. That extra person moving about the casino could also change the temperature or air currents slightly to effect the outcome. I still say if I could go back in time by 99 minutes, I'd pick baccarat.
Hmm, let me test my hypothesis.... Yep, you are right Wizard.. the numbers changed. Does anyone know where I can get some spare parts for my flux capacitor?
Kidding aside, couldn't the same environmental changes also affect the baccarat shuffle? How quickly do the contents of a shoe turnover?
Quote: WizardYou could make that argument about every story involving time travel backwards. Basically, you run into the grandfather paradox. If you could travel backwards in time, you could kill your grandfather, which would mean you would never have been born in the first place to do it. A common solution to this paradox is to suggest that at the moment you travel back in time you create a parallel universe, and you can only affect the new one. I find it easier to just accept time travel on faith for purposes of enjoying the story. Albeit, all the time traveling on Lost was hard to keep straight.
I disagree. Just one extra person playing might delay the game by a second. That extra person moving about the casino could also change the temperature or air currents slightly to effect the outcome. I still say if I could go back in time by 99 minutes, I'd pick baccarat.
Why hasn't anybody said that they would go back and bet on the fifth race at Aqueduct or something like that (in a Vegas race book)? You couldn't possibly affect the outcome of the race by betting $1000 on the trifecta or something like that, especially since you would be several thousand miles away, but that 99 minutes would be plenty of time to record the outcome of three races and then hop back in time with plenty of leeway to place your bets.
The only fictional handling of the time travel paradox I ever have found believable is the notion that you actually CAN'T disturb the timeline; if you do something that disrupts it, the universe changes so that the ultimate outcome remains the same. The only cinematic treatment of this motif I ever saw was an obscure movie called The Final Something, where a modern aircraft carrier found itself in the Pacific Ocean on Dec. 6, 1941. They decide to screw with the timeline and annihilate the approaching Japanese fleet, but it turns out to be impossible.
Quote: mkl654321The only fictional handling of the time travel paradox I ever have found believable is the notion that you actually CAN'T disturb the timeline; if you do something that disrupts it, the universe changes so that the ultimate outcome remains the same. The only cinematic treatment of this motif I ever saw was an obscure movie called The Final Something, where a modern aircraft carrier found itself in the Pacific Ocean on Dec. 6, 1941. They decide to screw with the timeline and annihilate the approaching Japanese fleet, but it turns out to be impossible.
The Final Countdown
edit: I suppose your action on the race has the potential to move the line which could affect conditions like the timing of the start of the event, or more likely, whether the Mob decides to hold back a horse in a race.
Quote: WizardI disagree. Just one extra person playing might delay the game by a second. That extra person moving about the casino could also change the temperature or air currents slightly to effect the outcome. I still say if I could go back in time by 99 minutes, I'd pick baccarat.
You're on the right track ;)
I can't use Baccarat for two reasons: 1) I don't know enough about it and 2) neither does the large majority of the population. And that's too bad, because knowing all the ties would be great. I do know roulette, or enough about it, and so do most people. At elast they know you get paid if your number hits (I won't complicate matters using corners, streets, odd, black, etc.)
Horse races might work. I'd had Daryl come up with prop bets on the first half of NFL games, thinking they can't possibly affect a bunch of football games hundreds to thousands of miles away. But then they'd find... well, that would be telling.
Your reasoning, that of having a shoe which would remain unaffected by minor timing or atmospheric changes induced by a new player, is sound.Quote: WizardI still say if I could go back in time by 99 minutes, I'd pick baccarat.
But Baccarat is still a bad choice - unless the table has a side bet.
At best, the basic Baccarat game is even money, with the occasional higher paying tie. Therefore, the only way to win big is to bet big, and consistantly win. If that happened, it wouldn't take long for the casino to stop the game.
At Keno, or even Roulette, it's easy to include a couple throw-away losing bets, thereby disguising your actions, and still make money, thanks to the long-shot, high payout nature of those games.
Do many Baccarat tables have side bets? Are how often does the high payout hit, and for how much?
It seems to me that even if there was a good side bet candidate, there would be too many other issues to make it work.
Therefore, as was discussed in the other thread about a time-travel / Roulette sci-fi story scenario, the best course of action would be to go to a casino that uses a computer rather than ping pong balls for it's Keno game.
A Baccarat shoe is like a BJ shoe. It holds 6 or 8 decks.Quote: AyecarumbaKidding aside, couldn't the same environmental changes also affect the baccarat shuffle? How quickly do the contents of a shoe turnover?
But, unlike BJ, everybody bets on the same hand, which uses at most 6 cards, and there are no decisions. I.E. Every round of betting used at most 6 cards. Once the cards are inserted into the shoe, the sequence is destined. The ONLY thing that can randomly change it, is if they burn a card with a dealer change. Do they do that?
Therefore, as long as the time traveler shows up after the cards are inserted into the shoe, you're good to go!
There are sometimes sides bets in baccarat, like the Dragon Bet, but they seldom offer huge odds. I would stick to just the primary bets -- Player, Banker, and Tie. The nice Vegas casinos should take a $150,000 bet off the street, so it would not be difficult to make $2 million or so, and even mix in enough losses to make it look like you just got lucky.
However, if you must have wins bigger than that, how about play the Power Ball lottery, or something like that, where the draw is televised. A believer in Chaos theory might argue that just buying a ticket 99 minutes before the draw at a gas station in Seattle would likely change the outcome where they draw the balls in Florida. About that, I'm not sure.
If you have the extra words, I would use the opportunity to just explain the rules and procedures of baccarat. You don't need to dwell on the specifics. I think a good writer both teaches and entertains.
If Daryl went through a wormhole and wound up in a place where everything looked like it did 99 mins ago, except Daryl's there, well, that's a different universe. Not only is everything that happens after Daryl arrives obviously affected by him being there, there's also no reason to expect, even if he didn't make any bets, that the numbers would come up in the same order in universe 2 as they did in universe 1.
The same would be true for a horse race or a lottery draw. You're not actually in the same place. There's no reason to expect what happens in the next 99 mins in universe 2 to be the same as what you experienced in the "same" 99 mins in universe 1.
Quote: WizardHowever, if you must have wins bigger than that, how about play the Power Ball lottery, or something like that, where the draw is televised. A believer in Chaos theory might argue that just buying a ticket 99 minutes before the draw at a gas station in Seattle would likely change the outcome where they draw the balls in Florida. About that, I'm not sure.
I hesitate to say more about the story ebcause I think I may have hit on a kind of new idea. But for story purposes it is flatly impossible to win the Powerball Lotto by jumping back 99 minutes.
Quote:If you have the extra words, I would use the opportunity to just explain the rules and procedures of baccarat. You don't need to dwell on the specifics. I think a good writer both teaches and entertains.
I appreciate the suggestion. I fondly recall learning the basics of celestial mechanics reading Arhtur C. Clarke's short stories. But an SF novel isn't the place to impart knowledge of gambling, just as a gambling story isn't a good place to expound about science (except math). And I still don't know much about Baccarat.
Anyway, hopefully I can find some time this weekend to write the thing. I'm thinking of calling it either "99 Minutes" or "Taking Chances."
Quote: Wizard
However, if you must have wins bigger than that, how about play the Power Ball lottery, or something like that, where the draw is televised. A believer in Chaos theory might argue that just buying a ticket 99 minutes before the draw at a gas station in Seattle would likely change the outcome where they draw the balls in Florida. About that, I'm not sure.
If you change would to could, I'd buy it from Chaos theory. The idea is that the small change has an immeasurable and unknowable consequence. It might just be the status quo (strange attractors and all that jazz, where I'm kinda mangling the theory a lot).
Quote: thecesspitIf you change would to could, I'd buy it from Chaos theory. The idea is that the small change has an immeasurable and unknowable consequence. It might just be the status quo (strange attractors and all that jazz, where I'm kinda mangling the theory a lot).
For that matter, the time travel scheme could be completely successful, but winning the money could have unimaginable unforeseen consequences for the future timeline. Maybe if I win big bucks, there's a catastrophic nuclear war or something. That kind of thinking could paralyze any potential time traveler.
I remember reading an old science fiction story where hunters pay big bucks to go back in time and gun down dinosaurs, but one of them isn't careful enough and accidentally crushes a butterfly. He returns to find a world where the neo-Nazi politician, instead of being a fringe nut, is winning the Presidential election, and all the words in the newspapers are spelled differently than how he remembers them.
I really, really don't like the idea of the baccarat shoe. Most readers will never have played baccarat; that's why I suggested a horse race instead. For that matter, I think that the idea of using the time travel power to go back 99 minutes and gamble is a trivial way for your character to use that power. The way it stands, it feels like the Weird Al Yankovic song where he is abducted by aliens, and as a reward for allowing them to experiment on him, they offer to take him to anyplace in space or time that he cares to go, and he chooses to go to last Thursday, so he can pay his phone bill on time. I'm sure that with the exercise of a little imagination, you can think of many ways that your character(s) could use this time travel in some immensely powerful way, more than just making a few bucks. I also like the idea of unintended consequences, which ties in nicely to the whole time travel paradox shtick.
I read that story in a Sci Fi class in High School. GREAT story.Quote: mkl654321I remember reading an old science fiction story where hunters pay big bucks to go back in time and gun down dinosaurs, but one of them isn't careful enough and accidentally crushes a butterfly. He returns to find a world where the neo-Nazi politician, instead of being a fringe nut, is winning the Presidential election, and all the words in the newspapers are spelled differently than how he remembers them.
The company running the time travel hunt would go back and see which dinosaur would die of natural causes, then bring the hunters there a day before it dies, to kill it.
I LOVE Google and Wikipedia. It took about 2 minutes to find it. It was a Ray Bradbury short story called A Sound Of Thunder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe company running the time travel hunt would go back and see which dinosaur would die of natural causes, then bring the hunters there a day before it dies, to kill it.
A movie based on it came out not too long ago. A B-movie (or direct to DVD, which is the same thing). It's amazing how far B-movies have come and yet remain B-movies
Quote: mkl654321I remember reading an old science fiction story where hunters pay big bucks to go back in time and gun down dinosaurs, but one of them isn't careful enough and accidentally crushes a butterfly. He returns to find a world where the neo-Nazi politician, instead of being a fringe nut, is winning the Presidential election, and all the words in the newspapers are spelled differently than how he remembers them.
Ray Bradbury's A Sound of Thunder
It was made into a movie in 2005. Which was not so good, even with Ben Kingsley.
Quote: ChuckYou can't go backward in time, only forward. What already happened can't be changed.
If Daryl went through a wormhole ....
I believe it is the case that the only science at all to support the idea of a time machine involves this wormhole business. I seem to remember Hawking saying it is something on the subatomic level, in space-time fabric, in theory anyway. Can't find that now though. If so, the wormhole has to grow in size, for one problem to be solved. It is interesting to me that science doesnt shoot the idea down altogether. Oh, and science does only know of travel in one direction. However, I think you have the direction backwards, according to something someone wrote in wikipedia:
"For example, consider two clocks at both mouths both showing the date as 2000. After being taken on a trip at relativistic velocities, the accelerated mouth is brought back to the same region as the stationary mouth with the accelerated mouth's clock reading 2005 while the stationary mouth's clock read 2010. A traveller who entered the accelerated mouth at this moment would exit the stationary mouth when its clock also read 2005, in the same region but now five years in the past."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
Quote: thecesspit1 second per second in fact.
I dare you to accelerate to near lightspeed and repeat that. :P
Quote: NareedI dare you to accelerate to near lightspeed and repeat that. :P
Not a problem... There, I did it... You should be reading about it in five years....
Quote: odiousgambit"For example, consider two clocks at both mouths both showing the date as 2000. After being taken on a trip at relativistic velocities, the accelerated mouth is brought back to the same region as the stationary mouth with the accelerated mouth's clock reading 2005 while the stationary mouth's clock read 2010. A traveller who entered the accelerated mouth at this moment would exit the stationary mouth when its clock also read 2005, in the same region but now five years in the past."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
As written, that doesn't make sense. It says he enters the accelerated mouth in 2005 and exits the stationary mouth in 2005. No diff.
