TomG
TomG
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
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Thanks for this post from:
beachbumbabs
January 6th, 2018 at 12:20:42 PM permalink
A better question is Why is Trump now against the Wall? Mexico has already paid for it, according to his campaign promises, but it seems more and more likely Trump is just going to keep the money for himself.

Unlike Trump supporters, the majority of Americans believe in more personal freedom and responsibility. The Wall goes completely against those values.

Also unlike Trump supporters, most Americans are against this sort of big government intervention and government waste. The Wall will do absolutely nothing about people who simple overstay their visas, which now exceeds the number of people who cross the border without authorization. The $20 billion is also the figure for building the wall. How much money is Mexico going to give to Trump for maintenance?
WatchMeWin
WatchMeWin
Joined: May 20, 2011
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January 6th, 2018 at 12:37:28 PM permalink
and dont forget to ask... which one of Trump's construction buddies is going to benefit from building the wall. Forget how tall the wall will be, I want to know how deep below the ground it will be so they cant come in through underground tunnels.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
IndyJeffrey
IndyJeffrey
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
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January 6th, 2018 at 12:44:33 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Will the wall be effective? Will immigrants just react, divert means to other areas?

Will it harm wildlife and migration and the environment?



I cannot see how it would be effective, but I am sure we need to agree on the definition of 'effective' before further discussion.

Will immigrants just react...? Can you take a boat from the Bahamas/Cuba to Florida? Can you cross from Canada?

Will it harm wildlife and migration and the environment? I cannot imagine how it would improve.

With a Wall, can you come to visit and not go back?
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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January 6th, 2018 at 12:54:50 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Do you leave the doors to your house or car unlocked when you're not home or at night?

As far as I know, theres's not a single country in the world with true open borders. Since it will have ZERO effect on legal immigration, why on earth are some people so vehemently against the wall?



To intelligently answer your question, you've answered your own. What would be the best way to keep your home safe from burglars?

- Some people simply move to somewhere safe.
- Some people buy a gun to defend themselves.
- Some people put bars on their windows and get extra locks to deter entry
- Some people invest in a burglar alarm.
- Some people invest in higher technology to keep cameras on their homes.
- Some people erect their wall around their home.

The question is effectiveness and the value of protecting yourself. To most of us, a wall would not be cost effective, yet most of us erect attractive and inexpensive fences to keep people out of their back yards, and use a combinations of protections to keep away burglars based on a number of factors.

I would argue that a wall is not effective. You can climb over it, fly over it, dig under it, drive through it (border crossings) and swim around it. It is mostly symbolic, and the people with means will find ways around it. This includes the drug trade who have lots of money and ingenuity to get around the wall, and the immigrant smuggling trade who will just charge more to get people into America and will use that money to invest in the alternate means to get people into the country despite the presence of a wall. Instead, a wall harms the vulnerable (people who actually come to the United States, illegally mind you, to seek a better life) who cannot afford to or not smart enough to use the alternate means. Those people are far more likely to die in their efforts.

Without questioning Trump's mandate (which is another story altogether), and assuming that you follow his narrative that the southern border should be closed, then there are other methods that are likely far more cost-effective, including infrared sensors, drones, passive and active surveillance.

For example, many of us have gone to technology by installing cameras at our doors as a form of monitoring as an augmentation to burglar alarms, fences, guns, etc. That is a smart approach that we take. We recognize that a physical wall has its drawbacks. The president should do the same.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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RogerKintbeachbumbabspetroglyph
January 6th, 2018 at 1:05:53 PM permalink
Illegal immigration: cheap labor with no rights. Pushes down wages of other workers. Strains public resources, (schools, e.g.) for the poor, working and middle classes. Creates ethnic conflict. These are all major objectives of most Republicans and Democrats.

It's a dream come true for the 1%. Neither party will ever make an earnest effort to address the situation.

Trump's current stated goals: integrating non-criminals who are here, and tightening the boarder sound good. Though, you also have to expand legal immigration probably. And what you REALLY have to do is drop a massive hammer on businesses that make a practice of hiring illegal immigrants. This would be like if we could easily make it so heroin doesn't get you high.

Not sure if he's serious.

To me, the wall seems like more of a symbolic pork project. It's not the kind of symbolism I like. It seems dystopian to live in a country surrounded by walls.

Anyway, like I said, if he really wanted to stop it, just fine the living crap out of employers who regularly break the laws. Make it -ev for them. Create a revenue stream instead of a yuge expense.
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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January 6th, 2018 at 1:15:44 PM permalink
$20B for a wall sounds pretty damn cheap to me.

There are what, like 300-330M people in the USA? How many of them pay taxes? Let's go with an absurdly low number, 25M taxpayers. That's $800 a person. That's assuming we're using the American 'billion' (9 zeros) and not the British 'billion' (12 zeros). I spend more than that on Chipotle a year.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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January 6th, 2018 at 1:18:23 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

why on earth are some people so vehemently against the wall?

Ain't ya never seen the tee shirts: We all have to believe in something and I believe I'll have another beer. Its the same thing with 'we all have to be against something too.
Ya draw a line in the sand and make your choice.

You want pot holes repaired first? So what? You want your cousin hired on the wall contract? Then gotta have that wall contract.

What you expect to stand up and campaign for? Pablum? Gotta campaign for something that hits them in the gut. Good or bad, don't matter.... just not pablum.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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RS
January 6th, 2018 at 1:22:43 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



Anyway, like I said, if he really wanted to stop it, just fine the living crap out of employers who regularly break the laws. Make it -ev for them. Create a revenue stream instead of a yuge expense.



Yeah well, he is not going to fine himself...so the wall it is.
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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RS
January 6th, 2018 at 1:31:49 PM permalink
Mexico Has a Wall on its Southern Border (with much stricter militant enforcement than we have, you should see what they do to their illegal immigrants, which is something left-leaning people never want to hear when talking about how badly we treat the country of Mexico....)

But, walls are effective, look at the walls in Mexico and Israel.

When somebody can stroll through the desert, its far easier than walking hundreds of miles to the end of the wall and then hoping to get a secret boat around the wall.

That being said, I have no issue with the wall, it would help in someways, that is not debatable. But, the better answer to stop illegal immigration is stop incentivizing people to come here. People only will risk their lives to come here if there is a reason to do so. Whether that be state benefits, free education for their kids even if they are illegal, opportunities to skip the line and get citizenship fast, etc....

The best "wall" would be to make getting here as unrewarding and miserable as possible. Cut off all benefits regardless of how many anchor babies they have. All illegals get sent to a super-max work camp. Strict employer citizenship test for all new hires. Any employer who is found knowing hiring illegals get 20 years to life. If you make it impossible for them to live here, we will not need a wall, they will stop coming.

Oh, and no more of this English as a Second Language Free Education nonsense....... Even for legal immigrants that is obnoxious. Go to a private school if you want people to favor your language..... If I move to Mexico I would have to pay for my Kids to attend a Private English Speaking School, the Government would laugh at me if I asked for "Spanish as a Second Language".......
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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January 6th, 2018 at 1:44:02 PM permalink
Quote: RS

$20B for a wall sounds pretty damn cheap to me.

There are what, like 300-330M people in the USA? How many of them pay taxes? Let's go with an absurdly low number, 25M taxpayers. That's $800 a person. That's assuming we're using the American 'billion' (9 zeros) and not the British 'billion' (12 zeros). I spend more than that on Chipotle a year.



A billion is the same both in Britain and the USA: 1,000,000,000.

$21.6 billion is the actual estimated cost. That works out to about $70 for each US resident.

Of course, if you don't care about $22 billion, how about restoring CHIP then, which provides health care to 9 million children of low income families to the tune of $17 billion a year?

Or even better yet, use the $22 billion saved by not building a wall and just pay off 0.1% of the national debt.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!

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