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24 members have voted

Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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djatcBoz
January 15th, 2017 at 12:09:28 PM permalink
Cash is my health care. If you can't afford it, then you suffer.

I'm tired of the country being a charity case and having to pay for everyone else!!
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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SanchoPanza
January 15th, 2017 at 12:11:53 PM permalink
If you want to get a viable consensus on single payer government health coverage, you will need to include a check and balance on personal responsibility in order to save money. Nothing like putting in a universal "everyone pays the 100% of their first $3600 in annual health insurance costs" to avoid abuse of a "free" health care system.

Ross Perot had the key to solving the rampant costs of health costs/insurance...get the user of the services financially invested in lower costs and shopping for medical service providers. Ask yourself a question, do you even know how much your doctor makes for a standard office visit as the sum or your co-pay and insurance payment? What else in your life do you consume and have no idea how much the item or service costs? My guess is nothing...isn't there something wrong with that set of facts?

One way to change this is to make individuals pay something significant out of their own pockets when they seek medical care and to cover them for chronic or catastrophic medical issues. $10 co-pays are ridiculous....you make the co-pay equal to 50% of the insurance company's negotiated rate for the service you are consuming. Do you think more folks are going to see if that sniffle or sprained joint or muscle heals by itself over the next week before going to see the doctor and forking out the $100 just to get checked?

The Health Savings Account concept does this brilliantly...or at least it used to before Obamacare changed the rules and put "preventive care" back into the black box of requiring no payment from the insured.

Without personal financial responsibility for the costs of health care services individuals consume, expect costs to continue to go up due to excess demand regardless of Obamacare, Trumpcare or some Single Payor National Health Care. The same goes for Medicare. It is going bankrupt in part because the users of services pay very little for the consumption of those services...well that and the fraud that has developed when a service provider knows he/she can bill for anything because the user of the services is never going to tell Medicare that they didn't receive this service or that device...why would the user monitor the physicians Medicare billing? It doesn't cost the patient any more if they don't check the bill and there are additional items listed on the bill sent to Medicare...it isn't like they are signing a document on the way out of the office saying, "yep, I really did get all of this and my portion of the bill looks like $150, it all checks out."

Think about this in the world of auto insurance...if there was no increase cost to your auto insurance for getting speeding tickets or getting into accidents, would you be more or less likely to speed and drive less carefully? More or less likely to roll through a few more red lights and stop signs? One deterrent to those actions is the fact that your auto insurance rates would go up if you drive poorly or recklessly and the result is traffic citations and at fault accidents. With enough "points" on your record, you may lose your right to drive altogether.

Transfer that to your personal health. If you knew you had unlimited access to free medical care, would you care less about being overweight or doing something about being pre-diabetic to ensure you don't develop full blown Type 2 Diabetes? Would you eat healthier and exercise more if you knew that if you developed a chronic condition, it would cost you more out of pocket expenses every year? What about smoking...if you knew that the National Health Insurance plan would take care of your smoking induced health care costs, would you be more or less likely to start or continue smoking? These are all personal choices that affect your health and people should be held accountable for the costs associated with making these lifestyle choices.

The problem that many conservatives have with a Single Payer Health Insurance Plan is that individuals that intentionally lead healthy lives tend to subsidize those individuals that don't. Throw out the health issues like cancer, mental health and other catastrophic health issues that can hit anyone regardless of their lifestyle...I am talking about the Type 2 Diabetes cases where individuals are overweight and continued to eat like crap and never exercised...same with cardiovascular diseases for the obese and sedentary. There are exceptions with these diseases and others, my point is this country was built on individuals working hard and being personally responsible for their actions...health care is no different.

There is a reason life insurance costs more for smokers than non-smokers...why should health insurance be different. People should be allowed to make their own choices in life, but those choices come with bearing associated costs.

If someone on the left or the right comes up with a plan that allows everyone to get insurance at a cost that aligns with their commitment to use services only when needed and holds them personally accountable for maintaining a healthy lifestyle (or pay more for the choice not to), then they may have a winner.

Here is a thought, Universal Health Care with mandatory annual physicals...everyone starts at the some standard base premium this year and your cost contribution to the plan next year is based on how close you come to hitting healthy lifestyle milestones next January 1st. If the grid says you need to lose 15lbs this year and get your BP/Cholesterol down 30 points or it is going to cost you an extra $75/month in 2018, do ya think you might be more motivated to do that? Keep in mind you will pay 100% of the first $3,600 in annual costs of services you use in the system regardless of your lifestyle health score. A universal health plan with incentives for personal responsibility to live healthier and a cost hurdle to using services...many could get behind a plan like that.

But just a blind, everyone gets access to health care without incurring any costs, everyone pays the same premiums (or tax) to fund healthcare costs that continue to spiral out of control due to a failure to connect the user of services to the payment of services and no incentive for personally responsibility...if you put that system in place you are destined to have a two tiered system with crappy common care for everyone except the wealthy that can afford optional private care. Just ask Once Dear about that UK system...I lived in London for 5 years and know about my experience there. And guess which system employs the best doctors who can make the most money...one clue, it ain't the Medicare/National Health Care hospitals and medical facilities. But I am sure Soopoo and our other resident MD members can speak to that.

Time for me to get back to work...I have my individual Blue Cross HSA "grandfathered from Obamacare" health insurance bill to pay for this month...my premium went down 2% in 2017...you see when you are part of a pool of insureds that limit their own access to care because it costs them something to use the healthcare system, costs for the pool go down and so do the premiums...funny how that works isn't it?
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
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January 15th, 2017 at 12:14:48 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

One difference between us is that I acknowledge my social debt and you apparently don't.



I wonder if there's not more to this point. I wonder if it all boils down not to numbers, but to philosophy.

Rudeboyoi's comments, while an extreme that didn't receive total support (voluntarism), still garnered several comments in favor of pieces. Perhaps not everyone is full Leave Me The F#$% Alone, but it appears there are many that are at least LMTFA-lite.

You say that you recognize society's help, and believe you have a debt to that. That you are morally responsible to tote your share. Easily understandable. But what of us with more than a mote of LMTFA?

It's sort of why I found such interest in your sort of "a la carte" idea of governance. You found success in the system offered. You appear to like it, despite awareness that it could be better. But for us on the more extreme end of LMTFA, how does your idea resonate?

Society offers me much, sure. Chlorinated water, capped roads, these are things I am very grateful for and use often, at a cost I find to be laughably low for the benefit I receive. But what of the metric ton of stuff I never have and never will use? As one who I would describe as "spartan" when it comes to use of any resources, I don't appear to have an option that fits me. There is no way for me to cast off from society, no way to pay a la carte, no way to engage in a lifestyle that suits me or that I desire. Looking through that lens, the "boon of society" can quickly start to look along the lines of indentured servitude. Perhaps IS is an improper term, but hopefully you ken my meaning. Whether the system is good, bad, or ugly, we're still being forced to play a game we don't want to play. Hence the opposition, despite that your idea may be keen as hell for the system already in place (which we already don't dig).

I dunno, just a thought. Trying to break through the communication barriers between right and left.


On topic...

I now have employer healthcare, the only kind I've ever known besides weed and prayer. If I'm deciphering my pay stub correctly (federal nonsense, so I'm almost certainly not), looks like I pay ~$120 for self med and ~$36 self dental p/month.

I am very happy as I +EV'd the dental, getting on with a qualifying event, getting four figure work done, then dumping them weeks later during open enrollment. Got about a grand for $100, so I can say, one time, that I came out on top. But even that was a faff and a half, and the "win" obscures the fact that my insurance was garbage that left enough uncovered that the out of pocket work on just one tooth surpassed my total net worth.

I fortunately found an angel working the desk and she, a dental secretary who I'd never met, sat with me for 45min trying to translate the myriad plans available to me and find me one that fit me. And that's sort of a big deal. I dunno 'bout y'all, but having to purchase insurance yourself was a maddening task. I saw no place, no way, to get the info needed to make an informed decision. As it was, the dental lady had access to all that jazz, and could price everything out to me in real terms. Doing it myself? Flying on complete and utter ignorance? Well, there's thousands of dollars chewed up right there. Talking 3-4-5% of my total net income, lost to ignorance if not for that woman. Wonder how many others are pissing money away like I was?

Health I've not yet used, as I'm on the monet side of things. It, like everything else, has too many pitfalls for those without lawyer level knowledge of this s@#$. I too am tired of piecemeal work being done just to extend the copay gravy train, tired of pills being pushed on me without any other sort of path being discussed, tired of the pills I DO need being withheld without a hundred goddamn hoops to jump through to get them. I'll keep the insurance as my lifestyle makes it a necessity, but in practice I am most assuredly on the "Walk that s#$% off" plan.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
fastXXXeddie
fastXXXeddie
Joined: Jan 10, 2017
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January 15th, 2017 at 1:10:11 PM permalink
First job retail clerks union, blue cross& shield Company paid for . Next job Communication Workers union, premiums paid by company for 30 years + 10 years into retirement, then get $4 k annual reimbursement.
Last person I want to stiff is medical care providers, so I now have Medicare and Supplement F. Like being able to go to any doctors anytime, without approval of any sort.
Plan F pays deductible and damn near everything except over a year in hospital or over a year in nursing home. In either of those cases I would hope I would have the courage to do the right thing, and check out.
I think in 20202 you will not be able to get a supplement plan that does not have a copay for dr visits. I will be grandfathered in.

Side bar : I dropped Aetna, went with AARP this year. Plans for age 65 in my area was $140 , sliding scale up on age. At age 75 AARP is two tier. Tier one is 200, tier two is $240, Heart attack last year meant tier 2 for me. AARP plans include Silver Sneakers for free. Means free membership for Gold's gym and like facilities.
New member here, soon as I can post links I will tell about my personal AP for Drugs system. Works for Medicare, Employer drug plans, and even no insurance. You wont find these AP plans on the web, especially the one for highest price drugs. Really
coilman
coilman
Joined: Jan 29, 2012
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January 15th, 2017 at 1:35:59 PM permalink
Canada has the SECOND HIGHEST prices for prescription drugs in the world...anyone want to guess who is number 1?

If you have some spare time this show THE FIFTH ESTATE has a good show

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2016-2017/the-high-cost-of-phamaceuticals-canadas-drug-problem
fastXXXeddie
fastXXXeddie
Joined: Jan 10, 2017
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January 15th, 2017 at 1:42:15 PM permalink
I sometimes order drugs from Canada as the prices are lower than or equivalent to my co-pay. But does not move me closer to the DONUT hole.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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steeldco
January 15th, 2017 at 1:49:44 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Society offers me much, sure. Chlorinated water, capped roads, these are things I am very grateful for and use often, at a cost I find to be laughably low for the benefit I receive. But what of the metric ton of stuff I never have and never will use?

Like what? Give me an example.
Quote:

As one who I would describe as "spartan" when it comes to use of any resources, I don't appear to have an option that fits me. There is no way for me to cast off from society, no way to pay a la carte, no way to engage in a lifestyle that suits me or that I desire. Looking through that lens, the "boon of society" can quickly start to look along the lines of indentured servitude. Perhaps IS is an improper term, but hopefully you ken my meaning. Whether the system is good, bad, or ugly, we're still being forced to play a game we don't want to play.

No, you're not being forced to play the game, you're grudgingly accepting it because you don't like the alternative. One of the freedoms granted to Americans is the freedom to give up their freedoms. You can leave. Every day you don't leave, however, is another day where you wake up and implicitly accept the rights and responsibilities of being a citizen. You don't get to have one without the other, and you especially don't get to say "I demand my Constitutional rights" without acknowledging that that same Constitution directly called for a Congress to implement Laws for society that govern your conduct within that society. If you don't like those Laws, you can either agitate to change them or you can leave, but you don't get to break them. That's what I mean by acknowledging social debt. The ultimate example of a freeloader is someone who demands rights from a society but who does not acknowledge the responsibilities they owe to that society.

That's what disturbs me so much about this narrow-minded idea that people who are ruggedly individually successful got that way all by themselves, without any help from anyone else current or past. Nobody living in this country today built their existence from whole cloth. Every single one of us owes a debt to the society we live in, even if it's not immediately transparent why that's true. It's sometimes hard to see 3rd or 4th order effects, but they're there nonetheless. Give me an example of someone who doesn't owe a debt to society, and I'll show you someone who doesn't live in one.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
monet0412
monet0412
Joined: Feb 18, 2016
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January 15th, 2017 at 1:56:55 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Like what? Give me an example.
No, you're not being forced to play the game, you're grudgingly accepting it because you don't like the alternative. One of the freedoms granted to Americans is the freedom to give up their freedoms. You can leave. Every day you don't leave, however, is another day where you wake up and implicitly accept the rights and responsibilities of being a citizen. You don't get to have one without the other, and you especially don't get to say "I demand my Constitutional rights" without acknowledging that that same Constitution directly called for a Congress to implement Laws for society that govern your conduct within that society. If you don't like those Laws, you can either agitate to change them or you can leave, but you don't get to break them. That's what I mean by acknowledging social debt. The ultimate example of a freeloader is someone who demands rights from a society but who does not acknowledge the responsibilities they owe to that society.

That's what disturbs me so much about this narrow-minded idea that people who are ruggedly individually successful got that way all by themselves, without any help from anyone else current or past. Nobody living in this country today built their existence from whole cloth. Every single one of us owes a debt to the society we live in, even if it's not immediately transparent why that's true. It's sometimes hard to see 3rd or 4th order effects, but they're there nonetheless. Give me an example of someone who doesn't owe a debt to society, and I'll show you someone who doesn't live in one.



I only study history for fun. I certainly do not know enough to be some sort of expert. I do understand that it certainly seems to be the American Way to Beg, Borrow or Steal and when it comes time to pay up... the individual or Country refuses and goes to war in one way or the other. I certainly do not see any problem with a citizen acting the same way that our government acts. I am pretty sure as a Citizen in America you have the right that all individuals have no matter if you contribute or not. That does not matter when it comes to your rights.

This is the same way of thinking on this site that I see about Casinos. It is not only legal for them to exploit anything or anyone to make profit. However when a player posts up something about how they exploited the System or Casino I see the same people on this forum cry out how wrong that is and that they do not endorse nor approve of such behavior. I notice it is only the players on this site with loads of cash always sticking up for the Casinos and pointing the finger at the Hustler who is stealing from such Casino.

Nothing is going to change. It hasn't changed in thousands of years and it isn't going to no matter how much you all think you can change it. The strong will always take advantage of the weak no matter where you live on this planet. That is just a fact of life. The other major fact is that you and I are going to die very soon so get ready for that. No health care insurance will save you of this demise that will happen to all of us.

Months ago someone posted up about Pinatas and six year olds and how the bigger, faster six year olds will use this advantage to get most of the candy. Perfect analogy in my mind of how the world really works and always will work.
Last edited by: monet0412 on Jan 15, 2017
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
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January 15th, 2017 at 2:03:43 PM permalink
I'm 25 so I'm still under my parents insurance until the end of the year.

After that I will need to purchase for myself, since I run my own business.

I just bought a house, and I take an expensive medication, so I'm very concerned about what premiums/pre-existing condition situations will be in 2018.
Dalex64
Dalex64
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
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January 15th, 2017 at 3:23:29 PM permalink
This opinion piece suggests that the reason that there is no replacement plan yet is because the current plan is actually pretty close to what the republicans had been proposing for years before the aca passed in the first place, and even implemented a version of in Massachusetts.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-this-is-why-republicans-can-t-find-a-replacement-for-obamacare-20170106-story.html

Because of that, their opposition to the program, and the attemted sabotage of it, is because the democrats passed/implemented it, not the republicans. In other words, they were all for it when it was their idea.

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