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EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 4:30:26 PM permalink
I'll never be a high stakes gambler, I don't
have the heart for it. That's what Chip Reese
called it, having heart. To be able to win and
lose and not have it bother you.

I was raised to be a saver, not a spender, not
an investor. My parents were raised in the
Depression, you hung onto every dime. They
taught us to do the same, never gamble. I'm
sure my dad never bought a lottery ticket in
his life.

When I gamble and get up to a certain amount,
less than my win goal, and lose a certain percentage
of it back, I have an overwhelming urge to quit
while I'm ahead. Even though I know that the only
way to reach my goal is to keep playing, I want to
play it safe. This is what I was taught to do, and
it's very hard to fight early programming.

It's not an emotional attachment to money, that's
a different thing entirely. It's a feeling of wrongness,
that I'm violating some law of the universe. It's
my dad drilling it into my head for years that, you
get a job, any job, and you hang onto it. If you get
a dollar, save it, stick it under the mattress because
you don't know when you'll desperately need it. This
kind of philosophy makes for a very poor gambler.

It's why I admire Ace. He can lose $5000, and hate the
hell out it, but he comes back with another $5000 and
does it again. I would implode psychologically, its goes
entirely against what my parents taught. Everything
was nickels and dimes for them. To them, gambling
would be squandering money, and it still is to me.
Even though I know better.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RS
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July 19th, 2015 at 4:50:31 PM permalink
Beautiful poem, EB.
AxelWolf
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July 19th, 2015 at 4:55:36 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'll never be a high stakes gambler, I don't
have the heart for it. That's what Chip Reese
called it, having heart. To be able to win and
lose and not have it bother you.

I was raised to be a saver, not a spender, not
an investor. My parents were raised in the
Depression, you hung onto every dime. They
taught us to do the same, never gamble. I'm
sure my dad never bought a lottery ticket in
his life.

When I gamble and get up to a certain amount,
less than my win goal, and lose a certain percentage
of it back, I have an overwhelming urge to quit
while I'm ahead. Even though I know that the only
way to reach my goal is to keep playing, I want to
play it safe. This is what I was taught to do, and
it's very hard to fight early programming.

It's not an emotional attachment to money, that's
a different thing entirely. It's a feeling of wrongness,
that I'm violating some law of the universe. It's
my dad drilling it into my head for years that, you
get a job, any job, and you hang onto it. If you get
a dollar, save it, stick it under the mattress because
you don't know when you'll desperately need it. This
kind of philosophy makes for a very poor gambler.

It's why I admire Ace. He can lose $5000, and hate the
hell out it, but he comes back with another $5000 and
does it again. I would implode psychologically, its goes
entirely against what my parents taught. Everything
was nickels and dimes for them. To them, gambling
would be squandering money, and it still is to me.
Even though I know better.

That's why its always best to play something you can actually quantify and calculate your edge, or at lest get close. You don't need win goals, or stop loss points. (disregarding something like a loss rebate). Your goal is to put in hours, or reach a specific coin in target, hit the progressive or complete a promotion.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
1BB
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July 19th, 2015 at 5:03:54 PM permalink
I also think of our friend Ace. Has anyone been in contact with him?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
kewlj
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July 19th, 2015 at 5:14:01 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'll never be a high stakes gambler, I don't
have the heart for it. That's what Chip Reese
called it, having heart. To be able to win and
lose and not have it bother you.

I was raised to be a saver, not a spender, not
an investor. My parents were raised in the
Depression, you hung onto every dime. They
taught us to do the same, never gamble. I'm
sure my dad never bought a lottery ticket in
his life.

When I gamble and get up to a certain amount,
less than my win goal, and lose a certain percentage
of it back, I have an overwhelming urge to quit
while I'm ahead. Even though I know that the only
way to reach my goal is to keep playing, I want to
play it safe. This is what I was taught to do, and
it's very hard to fight early programming.

It's not an emotional attachment to money, that's
a different thing entirely. It's a feeling of wrongness,
that I'm violating some law of the universe. It's
my dad drilling it into my head for years that, you
get a job, any job, and you hang onto it. If you get
a dollar, save it, stick it under the mattress because
you don't know when you'll desperately need it. This
kind of philosophy makes for a very poor gambler.

It's why I admire Ace. He can lose $5000, and hate the
hell out it, but he comes back with another $5000 and
does it again. I would implode psychologically, its goes
entirely against what my parents taught. Everything
was nickels and dimes for them. To them, gambling
would be squandering money, and it still is to me.
Even though I know better.



Wait a minute now....who is writing this under your pen name EB? I mean this was nice....not like you at all. Lol. A little glimpse into the thoughts and head of EvenBob, with no hostility and even showing a fondness for your hero, AoS. I hope THIS EvenBob posts more often. :)
MrV
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July 19th, 2015 at 5:21:27 PM permalink
Life is short; try to enjoy it.

As with most things, it's all a question of balance.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 6:11:27 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

That's why its always best to play something you can actually quantify and calculate your edge,



Has nothing to with edge or experience. It's
just like a fear of heights. You can consciously
know you cannot fall off the observation deck
of the Empire State Building, that it's not possible,
and still be terrified into paralysis if you have a
fear of heights.

Of course there are people on the other end of
the spectrum who can place any amount of bet
anytime they like. They have a different sort of
problem.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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July 19th, 2015 at 6:18:22 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob


When I gamble and get up to a certain amount, less than my win goal, and lose a certain percentage of it back, I have an overwhelming urge to quit while I'm ahead. Even though I know that the only way to reach my goal is to keep playing, I want
to play it safe. This is what I was taught to do, and it's very hard to fight early programming.



You have a goal but you also realize that luck/variance ebbs and flows. You have perfectly normal thoughts and reactions.
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 6:42:06 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

You have a goal but you also realize that luck/variance ebbs and flows. You have perfectly normal thoughts and reactions.



No. For years I was in a 'investment' type
business. I bought antiques at auctions and
sold them for a profit. This is very much like
gambling, or it can be. For myself, I never
bought anything I didn't know I could sell
at a profit. So there was no gambling involved.
The few times I took a chance and was wrong,
and lost money on a piece, I would really beat
myself up over it. Even though I was monstrously
ahead overall, that one bad decision would really
weigh on me.

That's not 'perfectly normal'. It's because I was
taught to never waste money, it was a very big
sin. I knew guys who would spend $50K at one
auction. If I spent $12K I was sweating bullets,
even though I knew I would sell it all for $20K.
It's the doubt syndrome that keeps people from
stepping into the big time.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
kewlj
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July 19th, 2015 at 6:55:48 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No. For years I was in a 'investment' type
business. I bought antiques at auctions and
sold them for a profit. This is very much like
gambling, or it can be. For myself, I never
bought anything I didn't know I could sell
at a profit. So there was no gambling involved.
The few times I took a chance and was wrong,
and lost money on a piece, I would really beat
myself up over it. Even though I was monstrously
ahead overall, that one bad decision would really
weigh on me.

That's not 'perfectly normal'. It's because I was
taught to never waste money, it was a very big
sin. I knew guys who would spend $50K at one
auction. If I spent $12K I was sweating bullets,
even though I knew I would sell it all for $20K.
It's the doubt syndrome that keeps people from
stepping into the big time.



"perfectly normal"

Who or what is 'perfectly normal'? One person's 'perfectly normal' is far different from another persons. You have given us a glimpse into the root of your own situation, growing up in 'tight times' learning to be a 'saver'. Nothing wrong with that.

For sure those characteristics don't translate well into a gambling or even an AP mentality. An AP or even a gambler (I guess) has to have a short memory, like a baseball pitcher or a quarterback that just threw an interception. You jump right back on that horse and throw down some more big bets in advantageous situations KNOWING that over time, you will get the best of it.

You know, we all have our little 'quirks', EvenBob. I have no trouble continuing to throw out the big wagers during advantageous situations, but here's one little quirk that I have developed fairly recently. I weigh everything, and I mean EVERYTHING in terms of my own personal EV. My own EV breaks down to just about $1 per round of BJ that I play. $1.25 to as much as $1.50 for the few really good games and as little as 70 cents for some of the worse game. But pretty close to $1 average pre round. So I sort of weight everything in those terms. Buying an item for the house @ $40....that's 40 rounds of blackjack. Going to a movie at $12, is 12 rounds of blackjack. I am starting to wonder how healthy or unhealthy this little quirk is. :/
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:12:10 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

KNOWING that over time, you will get the best of it.



That's another part of it. I'm a short term guy,
I'd rather keep the money I'm ahead than
forge on to meet the goal. A bird in the hand,
so to speak. Ebay was a godsend, I could buy
something for 50 bucks on Monday & on Sat it
was bought on Ebay for $150.

Quote: kewlj

Buying an item for the house @ $40....that's 40 rounds of blackjack. Going to a movie at $12, is 12 rounds of blackjack. I am starting to wonder how healthy or unhealthy this little quirk is. :/



It's natural. I played a lot of chess when I
was young and eventually was thinking about
everything in life as a chess move. Where was
my advantage if I did this or that. Kinda drove
me nuts.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
kewlj
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:20:31 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

That's another part of it. I'm a short term guy,
I'd rather keep the money I'm ahead than
forge on to meet the goal. A bird in the hand,
so to speak.



As a side note: If it's not your own 'bird' in your hand, you might be gay. :/

But more seriously, wouldn't that 'bird in hand' mentality prevent you from participating in almost any kind of investment opportunities?
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:31:03 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj


But more seriously, wouldn't that 'bird in hand' mentality prevent you from participating in almost any kind of investment opportunities?



Prevent, no, I'm not a hoarder who can't
get rid of anything. It just makes it difficult
to up the game. I remember reading in
the BJ book You've Got Heat that the author
had a hard time moving from red to green
chips. He was convinced that same BJ strategy
wouldn't work for green chips.

I know exactly what he means. I would absolutely
know I could get $2500 for a certain item I would
pay $1500 for, but I would never do it. $400 and
sell for $900, sure. The higher bracket would give
me palpitations even though I knew I could sell it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
ShineyShine
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:52:12 PM permalink
If you're not a natural gambler, this begs the question...why, then, do you gamble?
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:56:14 PM permalink
Quote: ShineyShine

If you're not a natural gambler, this begs the question...why, then, do you gamble?



Why do you think only natural gamblers gamble.
Why do so many people play golf, when they
always do so poorly at it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
ShineyShine
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July 19th, 2015 at 7:59:14 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Why do you think only natural gamblers gamble.
Why do so many people play golf, when they
always do so poorly at it.



Iv'e no idea, that's why i asked...
rainman
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July 19th, 2015 at 8:20:43 PM permalink
Some peoples fear of losing overwhelms their desire to win.
EvenBob
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July 19th, 2015 at 8:38:51 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Some peoples fear of losing overwhelms their desire to win.



We've discussed that before. Our brains are
hardwired to take the emotion of losing as
being far worse than the good emotion
of winning makes us feel.

It goes back to primeval times when losing
something could mean your death. Losing
your knife, or ability to make fire quickly,
or your portable shelter. People feel far
worse about losing a $20 bill, then they
feel about finding one in the street.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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July 19th, 2015 at 9:56:54 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I played a lot of chess when I was young



venice beach, washington square, all over west village or brooklyn ... many coffee shops in college towns....

Play chess for money.

If you want to play ap - chess, tell your opponent you work for the IRS.
odiousgambit
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July 20th, 2015 at 2:45:01 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'm sure my dad never bought a lottery ticket in his life.



Mine neither, and had nothing to do with bookies either like I knew other men his age did. As for his youth, he would sometimes make an observation about horse racing. It's possible he placed a few bets there; I never asked him.

My parents were also brought up in the Depression and it had holdovers for us too. I still am sometimes stunned observing how my wife wastes food, not wasting that was a real biggie growing up.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Ibeatyouraces
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July 20th, 2015 at 7:57:11 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

...I remember reading in
the BJ book You've Got Heat that the author
had a hard time moving from red to green
chips. He was convinced that same BJ strategy
wouldn't work for green chips...


What ever happened to Barfarkle? Kewlj, do you know? His reports were the only reason I read the bj insider news letter. Never bought the book since it was just a collection of those reports.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
kewlj
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July 20th, 2015 at 8:12:29 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

What ever happened to Barfarkle? Kewlj, do you know? His reports were the only reason I read the bj insider news letter. Never bought the book since it was just a collection of those reports.



Barfy is a member at BJ21. He rarely posts on the message board, but he does participate in the weekly chat almost every Tuesday evening.
Ibeatyouraces
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July 20th, 2015 at 8:22:35 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Barfy is a member at BJ21. He rarely posts on the message board, but he does participate in the weekly chat almost every Tuesday evening.


That's cool. I knew he was on GC. I've never joined, nor will I. Just don't see the point of paying to talk to other people on the internet, but that's for another subject.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Face
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July 20th, 2015 at 10:41:01 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj


So I sort of weight everything in those terms. Buying an item for the house @ $40....that's 40 rounds of blackjack. Going to a movie at $12, is 12 rounds of blackjack. I am starting to wonder how healthy or unhealthy this little quirk is. :/



I do the same thing, though my unit of measure is time. Refuse to let off the gas and wound up cranking the wall? That's an extra 2 hours hassle working on the car on the trailer, 2 hours of work to buy the parts, 4 hours of work to repair, that's an "8 hour mistake". I need to rebuild my motor now, parts cost 20 hours. I really want to go on vacation, but that costs 160 hours.

It makes more sense to me than money. What's a dollar even worth, exactly? I dunno. But a minute is always a minute.
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cyrus
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July 20th, 2015 at 11:06:57 AM permalink
Quote: Face

I do the same thing, though my unit of measure is time. Refuse to let off the gas and wound up cranking the wall? That's an extra 2 hours hassle working on the car on the trailer, 2 hours of work to buy the parts, 4 hours of work to repair, that's an "8 hour mistake". I need to rebuild my motor now, parts cost 20 hours. I really want to go on vacation, but that costs 160 hours.

It makes more sense to me than money. What's a dollar even worth, exactly? I dunno. But a minute is always a minute.



I know many people who think this way. It has some value but not when taken to extreme.

If a person's job is independent, aka no "paid vacation", there can be a strong tendency to never take vacation. The cost of the vacation then becomes not only the airfare hotel etc but also the opportunity cost of not working those hours, say 40 hours * $20 = $800 in "lost wages".

I tend to do this in reverse also... I could clean the house for two hours, or I could hire a cleaning service for $X and do something else with my time. How much is my time worth? I start at whatever my salary is.

But of course this is somewhat a fallacy for me personally because I'm not going to actually do work for two hours on a Saturday morning. I already put in my 40 hours. And the independent contractor, although he certainly could work instead of vacation, he probably limits himself on hours/week, and does not work on Xmas and other holidays, so he has his limits also.

Time is money, yes, and an hourly (or Per BJ Hand) rate is a useful starting point. But there are limits beyond which it ceases to make sense.
MathExtremist
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July 20th, 2015 at 11:48:25 AM permalink
Quote: cyrus

Time is money, yes, and an hourly (or Per BJ Hand) rate is a useful starting point. But there are limits beyond which it ceases to make sense.

Maybe, but it's worth considering the very elastic exchange rate between money (which is replaceable) and time (which is not). The more money you have, the more your time tends to be worth. There's an interesting tipping point where certain people start to value one over the other, transitioning from "spending time to make money" to "spending money to make time." One's outlook on life tends to be very dependent on which situation they're in.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Face
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July 20th, 2015 at 12:04:05 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

One's outlook on life tends to be very dependent on which situation they're in.



Yup. Nothing is more valuable to me than my time. Nothing is more valuable period than time.



I will never be the type to "not take a vacation". The very thought is laughable. Money comes and goes. Time only goes, and it's running out. I'll have less tomorrow than I do today. I have less now than when I started this post. I might have 40 more years. More likely, I only have 30. Could be mine runs out tomorrow, or maybe even later today. And when it's gone, everything is gone.

Clock's ticking. Better get to livin'.
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Face
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July 20th, 2015 at 12:24:50 PM permalink
On topic, like EB, I have hangups when it comes to typical gambling. I have no attraction to money. I don't desire it or covet it. It's simply a tool. When I have enough, which for me is just a little more than covering the bills, I am set. All the things that fulfill me as a person cost time. I mean, fishing might cost $30 a year plus a bit of gear, hockey $150 plus travel, but that's a pittance. The real cost, the real need, is the time.

Not having money throws everything into chaos. When you're at the point where your juggling bills and only eating 6 times a week, it casts a pall on every other thing. So I don't risk money. I can't. It's like air. I don't crave it, but I sure as s#$% know when I don't have any. Gambling puts me at risk of not having any.

I do like to gamble, I just do it other ways. A newly discovered cliff face is like a newly released game. I study the angles, the approach, weigh the risk vs reward. Soil composition, humidity, my own physical and mental state, this is my variance. Lifting off that face at 40mph into a 180 rainbow is my dealing of the cards. If variance and my "AP abilities" come up Milhouse, I receive glory. If Lady Luck turns her back, I receive pain. It's kinda sorta the same thing.

Risk makes life fun. I just don't do it with air or money.
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Maverick17
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July 20th, 2015 at 12:25:07 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Our brains are
hardwired to take the emotion of losing as
being far worse than the good emotion
of winning makes us feel.



No.

Wrong.

Incorrect.

And since we have clarified your wrong-ness, it has nothing to do with the fact that back in primeval days I have memories of being eaten by a velociraptor.

If You were correct, peoples wouldn't gamble, but they do.

Unless, of course, everyone is Rainman, then I would agree with you.
Statistics don't lie, they deceive.
EvenBob
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July 20th, 2015 at 12:43:54 PM permalink
Quote: Maverick17

No.

Wrong.

Incorrect.
.



"Loss aversion refers to people's tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses to acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains."

Some psychologists think losing hurts
more than twice as much as winning
feels good. There is a huge amount of peer
reviewed research on this subject, look
it up.

'the negative feelings coming from the loss are much stronger than the positive ones coming from the gain.'

http://psychologyformarketers.com/loss-aversion/#sthash.hkW9XHTd.dpuf

As far as the primeval connection:

'Why are we so averse to loss? Like many cognitive biases, it conferred a big evolutionary advantage. All organisms survive by maximizing opportunities and minimizing threats. Because a loss of precious resources reads as a threat to our very survival, we're hardwired to try to hold on to what we have.'

http://www.beinghuman.org/article/loss-aversion
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MathExtremist
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July 20th, 2015 at 1:13:52 PM permalink
Quote: Maverick17

No.

Wrong.

Incorrect.

Actually, Nobel-winning economists would disagree with you (and would agree with EvenBob). Look up Prospect Theory and Loss Aversion.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Face
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July 20th, 2015 at 2:45:02 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Actually, Nobel-winning economists would disagree with you (and would agree with EvenBob). Look up Prospect Theory and Loss Aversion.



I thought it was common knowledge? Doesn't take a PhD to look around and see it's true.

Go to work early, leave late, volunteer for extra hours, help your coworkers. You could go years without hearing so much an "atta boy". But mess up one thing, and boss man's on your ass directly.

AP to your heart's content. Make money, be successful, identify advantages where no one else has. You'll feel pretty good. But spend 30 minutes on a table without realizing it says "BJ pays 3 for 2" and you'll beat yourself up for the rest of your life.

Buy your SO flowers just because it's Tuesday. Remember all important dates and even the lesser dates. Get him/her a new kitchen, new toy, a dream vacation, you might get praise for the day, maybe a week. But sleep with your secretary just 5 times...

Negatives weigh far more than positives. That is a fact that envelopes all of life, except for maybe an AIDS test or random drug screen. Don't need no study to prove this one.
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Doc
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July 20th, 2015 at 4:30:11 PM permalink
Quote: Face

But spend 30 minutes on a table without realizing it says "BJ pays 3 for 2" and you'll beat yourself up for the rest of your life.


What would you expect it to say that you wouldn't beat yourself up for?
Face
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July 20th, 2015 at 4:41:00 PM permalink
"BJ pays 3 to 2", of course =)

I might've shouldn't've posted that. 3 for 2 BJ is now probably in the pipeline ><
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odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Joined: Nov 9, 2009
July 20th, 2015 at 6:16:01 PM permalink
Quote: Face

spend 30 minutes on a table without realizing it says "BJ pays 3 for 2" and you'll beat yourself up for the rest of your life.



In my day I suspect now I've played video BJ without realizing BJ paid even money ... ignorance is bliss
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
kewlj
kewlj
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July 27th, 2015 at 6:27:19 AM permalink
Quote: perterpud088

(offensive post removed from quote by mod)



You REALLY need to come to terms with your sexual and mental issues, dude.
Greasyjohn
Greasyjohn
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July 27th, 2015 at 9:05:59 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'll never be a high stakes gambler, I don't
have the heart for it. That's what Chip Reese
called it, having heart. To be able to win and
lose and not have it bother you.

I was raised to be a saver, not a spender, not
an investor. My parents were raised in the
Depression, you hung onto every dime. They
taught us to do the same, never gamble. I'm
sure my dad never bought a lottery ticket in
his life.

When I gamble and get up to a certain amount,
less than my win goal, and lose a certain percentage
of it back, I have an overwhelming urge to quit
while I'm ahead. Even though I know that the only
way to reach my goal is to keep playing, I want to
play it safe. This is what I was taught to do, and
it's very hard to fight early programming.

It's not an emotional attachment to money, that's
a different thing entirely. It's a feeling of wrongness,
that I'm violating some law of the universe. It's
my dad drilling it into my head for years that, you
get a job, any job, and you hang onto it. If you get
a dollar, save it, stick it under the mattress because
you don't know when you'll desperately need it. This
kind of philosophy makes for a very poor gambler.

It's why I admire Ace. He can lose $5000, and hate the
hell out it, but he comes back with another $5000 and
does it again. I would implode psychologically, its goes
entirely against what my parents taught. Everything
was nickels and dimes for them. To them, gambling
would be squandering money, and it still is to me.
Even though I know better.



Very insightful post EB.
neverquitwhenup
neverquitwhenup
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July 27th, 2015 at 9:51:11 AM permalink
Sounds like complete bs.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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July 27th, 2015 at 9:52:55 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

Very insightful post EB.



Yous guys are wayyyy to deep for me,..... what's for lunch?

And someone needs to get a bigger eraser, not sure KewlJ can edit enough to fix.

Cheers, 2F
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
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