Caesar's Atlantic City cheats player out of $1500!

A Whale was betting around $700-$750 a hand in Spanish 21 at Caesar's AC this past Sunday when he came across a big opportunity. He's dealt 6-6 vs Dealer 4 and points at the bet to inquire how much the bet is. Before he can grab the appropriate amount of chips to presumably split, the dealer pulls a card and it is a 5...

The whale, along with the entire table, shouted "WAIT!!!" To which the dealer responded, "What? He wanted a hit!" The whale says in broken English, "No, I ask for chip count and you give me card!" Dealer says "You made a hand signal for a hit."

One lady at the table said "No, he wanted a chip count to split the 6's!!" The floor was then called over to sort things out and he said they will check the camera. 4 other people at the table back up the whale's claim that he asked for a chip count with the intention to split the 6's and after 15 minutes of deliberation they had a pit boss tell him that "He made a signal for a hit and therefore the card is played and he can either hit or stand."

Instantly the table went to bat for the guy protesting that "He asked for a chip count and NOT a hit!" or "This is wrong, you just don't want him to win more money!" But he reluctantly said "Ok, I stay." Dealer turns up J and busts with... a King! Next 3 cards were 2, 9 , & 8... Effectively cheating him out of a double down 21 and a hard 17 with the dealer busting on an 8.

He calmly cashed in his chips right away and left with $8000 whilst everyone shook their heads at how composed he was after being cheated out of $1500 by CET management's biased decision and inability to use common sense and witness statements to make the right decision.

I was there on Sunday to see how my friend, who was also playing at that table, was doing, and my friend explained the situation and said they were waiting for management to check the video.


I left for a while and when I came back was surprised by the decision against the whale.


By the way, maybe ten years ago, I had seen my friend bet a stack of red chips and get 11. Then when it was her turn, she pointed at her stack of chips, wondering the exact amount of her bet. The dealer gave her a face card, paid her, and moved on to the next player. On Sunday, I reminded my friend that the same thing had happened to her.

It might be true but don't think the dealers make money from this. Id have to wonder how this hand signal came about, I'd guess flicking a cigarette ash.

When I want a chip count on my bet I always ask verbally only. There’s no reason to point at anything.


However I’m surprised they didn’t just allow him to split given the level player he probably is.

And I’m disappointed the dealer didn’t know the correct play and at least hesitate before giving him the card. Especially if he’d been playing correct strategy up until that point

$750/hand is not a whale

Why would you consider this cheating? It sounds to me like it was just a misunderstanding. The player pointed and the dealer thought they wanted a card.

Unless you believe the dealer did it on purpose, this doesn't sound like cheating to me.

Quote: gamerfreak

$750/hand is not a whale

If that’s his game and he averages $750, you’re right, he’s not a whale. However, I’ve seen whales who play over $20K a hand in baccarat, and they go and “dabble” at carnival games at $500 a hand just to kill time.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

He calmly cashed in his chips right away and left...

If I had been playing and this had happened in Biloxi, I would have informed the whale that he could have a Mississippi Gaming Control agent at the table in about 15 minutes to referee the dispute. Personally, I believe in most Mississippi casinos, the Pit would have just paid up rather than have one whale and multiple other players all leaving with a story to share about what happened at Caesars.

When it comes down to "where the rubber meets the road" type if issue -- such as when casinos nickel-and-dime players in questionable situations -- MGC is often more than fair to the player, and might very likely have told the casino to pay up, especially for the small sum involved in the AC example. Everyone at the table agreed what happened, and the dealer was only watching and wasn't listening. Just suggesting the whale call for MGC might have convinced the pit boss to check back upstairs for further guidance. Most casinos do not like it when players are sufficiently upset to demand MGC review a dispute.

I understand that AC casinos may be different. I am constantly amazed at the "How AC did THIS to me" stories about the poor treatment gaming patrons receive there.

Quote: gamerfreak

$750/hand is not a whale

That's barely getting into high roller territory, eh? At the very least upper-mid-roller.

Regardless, what's the deal with these people asking for chip counts and how much they've bet? How do you not know exactly how much you have in the betting circle?? That doesn't sound like very responsible gambling...

I'm a dealer. I can show you at least ten different motions people make with their hands/fingers/foreheads to indicate that they want a hit. Ideally, every BJ player would use the same tapping signal to avoid any confusion, but that's not realistic. Pointing at the cards is not the most common hit signal, but I still see it every day.

I quickly learned that 100% of players who ask for a count of their bet will point at the bet. You have to realize that dealers have to observe hundreds of hit/stand signals each day, while reacting to each signal as quickly as possible. When you point, you are literally sending a "pull a card!" message directly to the dealer's brain. If I was the dealer, I would have started to pull the card when I saw the point, but I would have been able to stop just in time because I've trained myself to anticipate and avoid situations like these. However, the dealer in question can't be blamed either. Protect yourself and never "talk with your hands" at the blackjack table.

If Caesar's wasn't Caesar's, they would have found a better way to handle this. The player walked away, and they almost certainly lost more EV than they gained by making the decision that they did. But to say they "cheated" anyone is absurd. Almost as absurd as the results-oriented nonsense in the title and the last two paragraphs of the OP.

tl;dr - the player signaled for a hit

The dealer was a hero who probably saved this guy from losing all his money throughout the rest of the night.

Stories like this is exactly why I feel hand signals are a bad idea and you should only be able to WRITE what you want to do. There is nothing to stop a player who lost his bet claiming he moved his hands to shoo a fly away or something like that, not to bet. Hand signals are just a plain bad idea IMHO.

Quote: TigerWu

what's the deal with these people asking for chip counts and how much they've bet? How do you not know exactly how much you have in the betting circle?? That doesn't sound like very responsible gambling...

Ditto. How do you not know what you’re betting?

Frankly, if I’m in that situation, I would simply push out a stack of approximately the right amount. It’s then obvious what you’re gonna do, and up to the dealer to make sure it’s correct…

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Ditto. How do you not know what you’re betting?

Frankly, if I’m in that situation, I would simply push out a stack of approximately the right amount. It’s then obvious what you’re gonna do, and up to the dealer to make sure it’s correct…

Teddy, while those who are familiar with casino etiquette like you and I would obviously make the reach for chips to signify that we want to double/split, this guy was not a regular and he also happened to be of a different ethnicity. Therefore, it would probably not be common knowledge for him as this game's rules were foreign to him, literally.

I played Free Bet Blackjack at Sands PA a few months ago and was very much in the dark about how the Free double down option worked. I had A-3 vs dealer 3 and thought I was able to double down for free with the Big Gold Chip they give you to do so. All night I would watch people merely point at the bet and the dealer would put the Gold Chip up for the Free Bet double. However, I did not know the rules in this game state "You can only double down on Hard 9, 10, or 11." Meaning, you can't double down on a Soft hand for free and when I pointed to the hand(thinking I would get the free bet chip) the dealer gave me an Ace. My instinct was to protest and tell them I meant to double for free and I'm sure their solution would be to allow me to put the double down with the Ace already dealt on my A-3. So of course, I took another hit and it was a 10.

But it was being in the unfamiliar game that caused the confusion and had I been in his spot I would have certainly protested more because of common sense and the prevailing witnesses ready to back me up.

Quote: Nathan

Stories like this is exactly why I feel hand signals are a bad idea and you should only be able to WRITE what you want to do. There is nothing to stop a player who lost his bet claiming he moved his hands to shoo a fly away or something like that, not to bet. Hand signals are just a plain bad idea IMHO.

I can’t believe I’m saying this but you’ve outdone yourself again. This is quite possibly one of the stupidest gambling statements you’ve made. You want every player to write down every hit, stand, etc. for every hand? My G-d if you ran a casino it would go out of business before it even opened.

Before you go complaining to a mod there is no personal insult here. Just amazement at how bad your ideas are.