Mohegan Sun free bet voucher

I received a free bet voucher in the mail from Mohegan Sun for $200. I read the fine print on the voucher which states "Even money paid on any 21 cannot be used to double down or split. All other games: Even money or ante bets only. Winning bet will receive payment equal to the face value of the Free Bet, plus the cash value bet, times the odds as indicated on the table layout"

I was playing a positive betting progression system where i doubled my bet after each win. I place down the coupon at a blackjack table after winning a hundred dollar bet. I took my $200 back and bet the coupon. I was dealt a natural 21, and the dealer took the coupon and awarded 8 green chips. I argued that it was a free bet and I won. The house does not take the initial bet on any win. The floor said that the coupon clearly states that I dont get paid on the original bet and the house keeps the coupon. I asked the floor to read the voucher and show me where it said that. He glanced at it, said he didnt have time and they dont do that and placed it on the cash box and quickly plunged it in. I went to the rewards center a few hours later and asked about it. They said I was correct and find out who was working when I bet the coupon. Went back to the table, and they sent someone over telling me rewards was wrong and im reading it wrong and they dont do that, and what was I gonna do if they dont honor it. I said I cant do anything, Looking back I think they wanted to know if I was going to complain to gambling commission.

Im not a lawyer, but the language on the coupon I under stand as I should have been paid $400. Nothing in it states specifically otherwise. Im wondering if I should file a complaint with Gaming, maybe their lawyers will read it as I did. Or am i completely wrong.

I just got the exact language of the coupon because i receive two more "free bets" in the mail today.

Any insight?

It says you will be paid the value of the Free Bet ($200), plus the cash value bet ($0) [you are allowed to bet more money in addition to the free bet coupon] times the odds (3/2)

200 + 0 * 3/2 = 200

In my experience, free play coupons are usually awarded just the winnings. But that verbiage you stated sure makes it sound like you should have gotten the cash value as well. I don't know what to think.

Quote: wudged

It says you will be paid the value of the Free Bet ($200), plus the cash value bet ($0) [you are allowed to bet more money in addition to the free bet coupon] times the odds (3/2)

200 + 0 * 3/2 = 200

Aha. Now THAT makes sense.

I've never heard of a bet being called a "cash value bet", and why would that have to be in writing if it meant you get paid on a normal bet? At best I think the language is very vague, but please correct me if i'm wrong. I think the word PLUS is important, also there being nothing stating that you lose the value of the original bet after a win.

Quote: Omaha

I've never heard of a bet being called a "cash value bet", and why would that have to be in writing if it meant you get paid on a normal bet?

It's to clearly demarcate the payout between your coupon (no cash value) vs any chips (cash value)

Quote: Omaha

also there being nothing stating that you lose the value of the original bet after a win.

I've never been to MS so I don't know their coupons in particular, but usually these things say something to the effect of "coupon will be surrendered after decision."

Quote: wudged

It's to clearly demarcate the payout between your coupon (no cash value) vs any chips (cash value)

im not sure "clear" is the word I would use here

Quote:

I've never been to MS so I don't know their coupons in particular, but usually these things say something to the effect of "coupon will be surrendered after decision."

Usually they do, their's doesnt, but the pitboss said it did. When he read the coupon quickly after I asked about he stuffed it in the box.

Ill upload a photo of the coupon i received today

There's no image code, just the bracket info that should contain it.

The coupon stood for your money. Had you lost it, you would have lost a piece of paper, not your money.

If you had won using only your money, they would not have given you the value of your money as well as winnings; just winnings.

In this case, they did the same thing; gave you just winnings. They didn't "buy" the coupon from you as well; they just paid winnings. Then they took the coupon (too bad it wasn't of the "play til you lose" type, since you were on a roll...).

If you had pushed, would you have expected them to pay you $200? (The value of the coupon you're thinking they should redeem). I wouldn't have expected that. They might even have taken the coupon from you, turning a push into a loss, it sounds like, since you had played it once.

Just trying to run thru it logically. I think wudged had it in a nutshell, above.

Babs,

I've never used a free-bet coupon at blackjack but at roulette (this is in Atlantic City admittedly) if the ball lands on green, they either return the voucher so you can spin again or give you half the value in chips (this is how they honor the surrender rule in AC).

With that in mind, if the game was a push, they should either return the voucher or pay the value of the voucher. They should not remove the voucher without remuneration because then they are changing the payout of the game i.e. they would be turning a push into a loss, the loss being the free-bet. By definition, a push should result in the player being made whole, with no plus or minus after the round.

Quote: darkoz

Babs,

I've never used a free-bet coupon at blackjack but at roulette (this is in Atlantic City admittedly) if the ball lands on green, they either return the voucher so you can spin again or give you half the value in chips (this is how they honor the surrender rule in AC).

With that in mind, if the game was a push, they should either return the voucher or pay the value of the voucher. They should not remove the voucher without remuneration because then they are changing the payout of the game i.e. they would be turning a push into a loss, the loss being the free-bet. By definition, a push should result in the player being made whole, with no plus or minus after the round.

Darkoz,

Glad to hear that's been your experience. That's what I would expect as well (and have experienced), because to my mind, a push is "no resolution". That part, I was commenting more on the less-than-helpful attitude of the pit boss at MS; he seemed to want to just move on no matter what the coupon language was. I thought it was petty of him to stuff it in the hold box rather than keep it out and forward the question upward if necessary. The bigger picture, IMO, is he did not resolve the problem to Omaha's satisfaction on the spot, and in fact got in the way of resolving it by putting it where it couldn't be looked at by anyone else without a whole big procedure.

Quote: beachbumbabs

There's no image code, just the bracket info that should contain it.

The coupon stood for your money. Had you lost it, you would have lost a piece of paper, not your money.

If you had won using only your money, they would not have given you the value of your money as well as winnings; just winnings.

In this case, they did the same thing; gave you just winnings. They didn't "buy" the coupon from you as well; they just paid winnings. Then they took the coupon (too bad it wasn't of the "play til you lose" type, since you were on a roll...).

If you had pushed, would you have expected them to pay you $200? (The value of the coupon you're thinking they should redeem). I wouldn't have expected that. They might even have taken the coupon from you, turning a push into a loss, it sounds like, since you had played it once.

Just trying to run thru it logically. I think wudged had it in a nutshell, above.

No if I wold have bet with money they would give me my winnings AND my bet back. When I won with the coupon they gave me my winnings and TOOK the coupon . On a winning bet, the house doesn't keep your bet, that would be ludicrous . Why should they keep the $200 free bet?

They're policy should have been clearly written, I believe

Quote: Omaha

No if I wold have bet with money they would give me my winnings AND my bet back. When I won with the coupon they gave me my winnings and TOOK the coupon . On a winning bet, the house doesn't keep your bet, that would be ludicrous . Why should they keep the $200 free bet?

They're policy should have been clearly written, I believe

What you're describing is a "play til you lose" coupon or chips. Those are out there, but apparently this wasn't one. Win or lose, they were going to take the voucher away.

And the house does keep your bet a lot; every slot or video poker machine, for example, is a "for one" bet. I've always thought it was amusing when VP says "you win!" on a JoB hand; they're just giving you your money back; you didn't win anything. So are many progressives, where you bet $1 on LIR, for example, they collect your bet at the beginning of the hand, and all paybacks are "for one" odds.

Is that you Peyton???

I've had both 'types' of vouchers. The one you are describing seems to be the most common. When I get those I essentially immediately value them at half of what the dollar amount on the voucher is. I play these at Pai Gow poker or tiles, because that is what I like to play. I have never had the voucher taken during a push.
Sometimes they are also called 'match play', where you have to bet an equal amount of money to the voucher amount. I've also had those treated both ways... but most of the time they are only worth half of the face value.
Memory fades... can't remember where... but a few years back I had a long run on a match play coupon that they did not take after I won... so I won quite a few hands at essentially double what I would normally bet....

Quote: beachbumbabs

Darkoz,

Glad to hear that's been your experience. That's what I would expect as well (and have experienced), because to my mind, a push is "no resolution". That part, I was commenting more on the less-than-helpful attitude of the pit boss at MS; he seemed to want to just move on no matter what the coupon language was. I thought it was petty of him to stuff it in the hold box rather than keep it out and forward the question upward if necessary. The bigger picture, IMO, is he did not resolve the problem to Omaha's satisfaction on the spot, and in fact got in the way of resolving it by putting it where it couldn't be looked at by anyone else without a whole big procedure.

Babs,

I should have pointed out that in Atlantic City when the free-bet voucher wins, they take the voucher but only pay the win. They do not also replace the value of the coupon so a win on a $200 voucher would net you $200, not $400--same as what happened at MS to Omaha.

I also feel this is not the way the casino should pay out. The voucher should either be lost or replaced with the value in cash for a double win. It is not a pay till you lose but still it is not being paid properly in my opinion.

To support my opinion of how it should properly be paid, you have to compare it to other video table games where a normal bet is not taken at the beginning of the hand. The only one I can think of is video Blackjack

At both Sands Casino in PA and All the AC casinos that have it, video blackjack accepts free-play. When I play there, the "free bet" is either lost, replaced with cashable money if a push or won at "double", that is the free-play wagered is replaced with cashable coin AND the amount wagered is won.

So, $20 bet either,
A) loses--no loss to me
B) pushes--I win $20 since I can now cash what was essentially free-play previously or
C) wins--I receive $40 for both the free-play amount and the win.

If we do the logical thing and compare it to video blackjack, then a free-bet coupon for table pay SHOULD pay double upon a win.

However, my experience at all casinos I've played at is they cheat and do not replace the wager value, they just pay on the win.

Quote: darkoz

Babs,

I should have pointed out that in Atlantic City when the free-bet voucher wins, they take the voucher but only pay the win. They do not also replace the value of the coupon so a win on a $200 voucher would net you $200, not $400--same as what happened at MS to Omaha.

I also feel this is not the way the casino should pay out. The voucher should either be lost or replaced with the value in cash for a double win. It is not a pay till you lose but still it is not being paid properly in my opinion.

To support my opinion of how it should properly be paid, you have to compare it to other video table games where a normal bet is not taken at the beginning of the hand. The only one I can think of is video Blackjack

At both Sands Casino in PA and All the AC casinos that have it, video blackjack accepts free-play. When I play there, the "free bet" is either lost, replaced with cashable money if a push or won at "double", that is the free-play wagered is replaced with cashable coin AND the amount wagered is won.

So, $20 bet either,
A) loses--no loss to me
B) pushes--I win $20 since I can now cash what was essentially free-play previously or
C) wins--I receive $40 for both the free-play amount and the win.

If we do the logical thing and compare it to video blackjack, then a free-bet coupon for table pay SHOULD pay double upon a win.

However, my experience at all casinos I've played at is they cheat and do not replace the wager value, they just pay on the win.

Same way I was looking at it. I wonder if its worth filing a complaint.

Also, if I read that right, the free bet coupons in AC can be used on either video games OR table games?
If they pay the value of the coupon at video games, and keep it at table games, they are clearly cheating.

I think it makes perfect sense.

If you bet $200, you either win $200, win nothing, or lose the $200.
If you bet the free play, you either win $200, win nothing, or lose the free play.

You're not entitled to more. I can see the argument for keeping the free play if you win, but not for exchanging it for more cash. If you look at the coupon closely, the words "NO CASH VALUE" should be on there somewhere.

Quote: Deucekies

I think it makes perfect sense.

If you bet $200, you either win $200, win nothing, or lose the $200.
If you bet the free play, you either win $200, win nothing, or lose the free play.

You're not entitled to more. I can see the argument for keeping the free play if you win, but not for exchanging it for more cash. If you look at the coupon closely, the words "NO CASH VALUE" should be on there somewhere.

The coupon says Free Bet. If you win a bet, you keep your bet and the winnings.
Also the fact that you keep your bet if you stick the voucher in a video poker machine, but lose it at a table game doesnt make much sense.

Quote: Omaha

The coupon says Free Bet. If you win a bet, you keep your bet and the winnings.
Also the fact that you keep your bet if you stick the voucher in a video poker machine, but lose it at a table game doesnt make much sense.

But you don't, on a VP machine. You can't cash that voucher out. You have to play the value, and take whatever you win after playing the value.

If you stuck it in a 100 machine and played 2 credits and won with Jacks, you would get 200, not 400.

If you bet 100 of it, didn't win, then hit cash out, it would not give you a cash voucher; it would either give back 100 in free play, or nothing at all.

Quote: beachbumbabs

But you don't, on a VP machine. You can't cash that voucher out. You have to play the value, and take whatever you win after playing the value.

If you stuck it in a 100 machine and played 2 credits and won with Jacks, you would get 200, not 400.

If you bet 100 of it, didn't win, then hit cash out, it would not give you a cash voucher; it would either give back 100 in free play, or nothing at all.

I think jacks is a push. If you put it on a $100 machine and play 2 credits and get 2 pair, the above poster is saying you would get $400

Every one I've ever had is treated just like your scenario. Best to just throw it on Craps Pass Line and root for a quick win.

Quote: beachbumbabs

There's no image code, just the bracket info that should contain it.

The coupon stood for your money. Had you lost it, you would have lost a piece of paper, not your money.

If you had won using only your money, they would not have given you the value of your money as well as winnings; just winnings.

In this case, they did the same thing; gave you just winnings. They didn't "buy" the coupon from you as well; they just paid winnings. Then they took the coupon (too bad it wasn't of the "play til you lose" type, since you were on a roll...).

If you had pushed, would you have expected them to pay you $200? (The value of the coupon you're thinking they should redeem). I wouldn't have expected that. They might even have taken the coupon from you, turning a push into a loss, it sounds like, since you had played it once.

Just trying to run thru it logically. I think wudged had it in a nutshell, above.

Push the free bet voucher is returned to you. No surrender option w/ it, but you can split/double using cash or checks.

Also, if you do take it up with the Tribal Commission, let me know what happens because it could double the value of all my free plays.

Quote: WBGamble

Also, if you do take it up with the Tribal Commission, let me know what happens because it could double the value of all my free plays.

The Tribal Commission responds:

I did not read all the posts in this thread in detail. But from what I did read the coupon sounds like a "free bet" piece of paper that works like a match play but there's no initial bet. You put out the, say, $25 free bet coupon. If you loose you loose the coupon. If you win you get $25 and they take the coupon.