P90
P90
Joined: Jan 8, 2011
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February 11th, 2012 at 7:37:46 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I mean, really, how hard is it to say, "that hand is simply set wrong" on a GAME basis - and not a personal greed basis?


I mean, indeed?
And as the designer of Pai Gow Poker, well, one of the variants anyway, you are exactly the person to ask this.

How hard is it for the dealer, when a player fouls his hand, to say "that hand is simply set wrong" and just set it the house way?
How hard is it, when a player sets his hand in a way that makes both the low and the high hand worse than the house way, to say, "this hand can be easily made better, would you like me to set it the house way for you"?
On a game basis, not personal favor basis.
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EvenBob
EvenBob
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February 11th, 2012 at 7:54:05 PM permalink
edited
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
PlayYourCardsRight
PlayYourCardsRight
Joined: Dec 29, 2011
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February 11th, 2012 at 8:52:03 PM permalink
Pai Gow is different in that the dealer WILL tell you the house way. And a lot of dealers will tell you the book way on a hit/stand decision. But ultimately, it's your decision how to play your hand. The dealer has no choice. He/she must play a certain way and if they don't, then they aren't following the house rules and as Dan said, are subject to discipline.

When I'm at a table by myself, it's very easy to make sure the dealer sets correctly. i don't want their money if i didn't deserve it and I don't want them taking mine. If it might affect others, it's a slight issue. But if the dealer has been good to me (friendly, fun to play with), i'll find a way to say something most of the time... usually players are calling out what the dealer's hand should be before they set it... dealer mis-sets are rare.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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February 11th, 2012 at 10:26:49 PM permalink
I gotta go with SOOPOO on this one.

The dealer did not set his hand in the house way and it's the house's job to fix it. If the player gets a rare bonus because of it so be it. I've seen this happen a total of about 2 -3 times in all of my Pai Gow dealings... a testament to the dealers. When I'm at the table alone, I'll point out a dealer error no matter what direction it's going.

I've played many a long session at Pai Gow. I've been forgiven a total of once for fouling my hand, but I have not been forgiven for obviously setting my hand incorrectly. For example, I would put up a K-8 instead of a K-Q because I failed to see the Q in my pair of 9s. It's an obvious error that I'm not forgiven for should I lose and there's no logical reason why I would play the hand that way. It's my mistake, and i've lost a few times that way. In the case of PGP, the casino doesn't fix my mistakes, and I don't fix their's.

As for fixing a hand differently because all the aces are out, it's wrong to look at player's cards, but we do it anyway until we're told not to. My wife and I frequently play together and sometimes we'd play 2 hands (especially at the Peppermill where the $5 PGP tables are there all day and night, all week long) for a total of 4 of the six spots, and yep, in about 1 in every 100 hands, my strategy would change based on knowing where all the aces were -- you change your two pair strategy. The Peppermill wasn't sweating it though we were making it pretty obvious. Other places do, and we'll be told by the pit to look at our own cards, or they'll slap down a plastic thingy on one of the hands and make it play house way.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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February 12th, 2012 at 12:36:57 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I gotta go with SOOPOO on this one.

The dealer did not set his hand in the house way and it's the house's job to fix it. If the player gets a rare bonus because of it so be it. When I'm at the table alone, I'll point out a dealer error no matter what direction it's going.

In the case of PGP, the casino doesn't fix my mistakes, and I don't fix their's.



So which is it? it seems like you are saying both things at the same time.....
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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February 12th, 2012 at 1:38:40 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

For as long as the casinos continue to collect on fouled hands by inexperienced or inebriated players,
Players will collect on hands improperly set by the dealer, inexperienced, inebriated or other.
And there is no way you can say that either is right or justified any more than you can claim ether is moral or immoral.


Yes, you can indeed.
That is, - if you participate in this crap and then justify it by saying, "oh - it exists and happens, - so it must be okay!",
or if you refuse to participate in the slimy action, simply by saying, "the hand was set wrong, fix it," or "You overpaid me by $10, here it is back"
just as you would do so anyway, when the shoe is on the other foot.

If a wrong payout is wrong when it is one way, then it is just as wrong when it is the other way also,
that is, - if personal greed is pushed aside, a really big if for some people.

So easy to justify, so hard to do, when the cash is coming your way instead of away from you, eh?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
WongBo
WongBo
Joined: Feb 3, 2012
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February 12th, 2012 at 1:42:04 PM permalink
Another thought on this, the house way differs slightly from place to place and it really isn't up to the player to memorize the house way of each casino.
The dealer is playing to minimize loss and risk. The player is often playing riskier strategy to go for a win instead of a push.
If the dealer sets his hand a certain way, it is not my job or concern other than to compare my hand to his.
If I should happen to see another way he could have set his hand, it could be a variation of an individual house way that prevented that setting.
It is not up to the player to correct a hand which may be set following some obscure variation of house way.
Even if it is obviously inferior to another setting, I feel that the house is on it's own.
It is only a fair response to the fact that the player is not corrected or offered house way for a fouled hand.
This isn't a question of morality or honesty the way it might be at a blackjack table.
This is part of the strategy the house employs against the player.
Basically, if you make a mistake it costs you the hand.
Why should the player be expected to give the house a fairer shake?
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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February 12th, 2012 at 2:34:37 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

Another thought on this, the house way differs slightly from place to place and it really isn't up to the player to memorize the house way of each casino.


No, it isn't. But this doesn't mean that we cannot clearly see a fouled hand or an obvious mis-set. Certainly the hand described: A* J10987 is always best set as A*/J10987 in all cases, and not as AJ/*10987, or for that matter, J10/A*987.
Quote: WongBo

The dealer is playing to minimize loss and risk. The player is often playing riskier strategy to go for a win instead of a push.


Of course. Players should set their hands as finely as possible, and dealers should set their hands accurately to the proper house way. But when this process fails, if a player gives an alert out loud when the call is against him, but deliberately chooses to remain silent and in knowledge to accept the money the other way, everyone knows that they may be witnessing a person whose personal greed overrides his desire for a clean game result, and this has nothing to do with its legal status, but its human ethical status. You will see on dealers' forums this item discusses as "this is how gamblers are," but on gamblers' forums you will see "oh, this is how we justify it - CASH in hand is MINE, all mine..." until the floorman comes over and mentions what the correct play was and that money of 'x' amount should be returned, if it is caught, silence otherwise....
Quote: WongBo

If the dealer sets his hand a certain way, it is not my job or concern other than to compare my hand to his.


Unless the dealer sets his hand in a stronger way than the house way, which I have done by playing more Pai Gow than dealing it. (I deal more craps than Pai Gow Poker). I once set the hand 6544322 as 42/65432 instead of 65/44223 as dealer, as I simply would play for the push instead of the loss from Pai Gow experience. (It is better to play a much stronger straight with no top, than a much weaker two-pair together with the same "no top.") I saw it and re-set it as 65/44223, and had a happy player won her hand with three 7's and a Queen top, and I said "good for you," - as I am happy to set the hand the house way. My point is that if it not your concern other than to compare your hand to the dealer, then there is a reason why you will let the misplay happen one way, and protest a misplay the other way. It is because players are more interested in lining their pockets any way possible, as opposed to being interested in fair and correct game results by the actual play of the cards or dice, which is the casino's job and interest that they carry out so successfully that we actual play at casinos. In this regard, the casino is more ethical than the player, as the casino seeks the real result of the cards or dice, and the player will wish to line is pockets in any fashion, - going so far as to accept money that he know to himself that he did not legitimately win. On dealers' forums, we note that we see this in gamblers, and we also note that on gamblers' forums, every rationalization and justification is used and believed, so as long as it serves personal greed, cold hard cash in hand, and the hell with game integrity when it serves just my greed. Go lurk at a Dealers' forum, and see what is said there. If I am honest about this and share this here, revealing the "secrets of the dark side," your response should be more of interest and curiosity, than of shock and rejection and anger, - that dealers might actually see some of this.
Quote: WongBo

If I should happen to see another way he could have set his hand, it could be a variation of an individual house way that prevented that setting.


Unless of course you know the truth of the matter, and as an actual fact, - but would wish to lie to yourself about this truth in order to take the cash, - saved by a push instead of taking the honest loss like The Man That You Are. Certainly the hand 9877765 is better played as 77/98765, than as 98/77765 in all cases, and by all house ways in every casino on earth, and we all know this if we play the game of Pai Gow Poker.
Quote: WongBo

It is not up to the player to correct a hand which may be set following some obscure variation of house way.


Certainly the hand 9877765 is better played as 77/98765, than as 98/77765 in all cases, and by all house ways in every casino on earth, and we all know this if we play the game of Pai Gow Poker.
Quote: WongBo

Even if it is obviously inferior to another setting, I feel that the house is on it's own.


The house is indeed on its own. We certainly do not count on gamblers doing the right thing, we know this, we must count on ourselves.
I once knew a man whose wife divorced him, because the first thing this man said when he and his wife were confronted by an armed robber in a parking lot was, "Do what you want to the woman, - but leave me alone!" She was on her own. Obviously, they were in a casino's parking lot, and obviously the husband was still in his "gambler's mode...." Yup, we are on own....
Quote: WongBo

It is only a fair response to the fact that the player is not corrected or offered house way for a fouled hand.


True. Which is why my property allows Pai Gow Poker hand resets to the player's advantage, on condition that it was an honest mistake by a learning player, and not a shot-taking exercise by an experienced PGP player trying to get an unfair advantage.
Quote: WongBo

This isn't a question of morality or honesty the way it might be at a blackjack table.


Yes it is, obviously, denial not withstanding.
Quote: WongBo

This is part of the strategy the house employs against the player.
Basically, if you make a mistake it costs you the hand.
Why should the player be expected to give the house a fairer shake?


You see, we do NOT expect a gambler to give the house a fair shake on a game, we honestly expect gamblers to take a lot of shots here and there, and this is based on actual experience with actual gamblers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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February 12th, 2012 at 2:59:15 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
PlayYourCardsRight
PlayYourCardsRight
Joined: Dec 29, 2011
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February 12th, 2012 at 3:14:00 PM permalink
There are several casinos that will keep two low pairs together at all times. I've seen it several places.

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