Paigow Tiles Optimal Banking Questions

First I want to thank the Wizard and contributors of this site for the wealth of knowledge they've put together.

I play in California where there is no commission off wins. Juice is made when banking. Juice is closer to 1 or <1% when banking enough action.

So I've been playing with the numbers on the paigow calculator. Most players just go houseway.

1. Is it safe to select traditional way rather than foxwoods way? Is there a significant difference in either strategy? What is the difference?

2. Most exceptions I've discovered are easy enough to break down with a rule of thumb or note. But what if the difference is something trivial like .001
for example L8+H6+5+Geejoon play 3/9 instead of 4/8. At what point does it not matter? Not all exceptions are created equal.

3. One of the corporations say they have ~124 exceptions from houseway. I've gathered probably roughly around that much. Is banking houseway v using exceptions a real money making difference?

4. Is it exploitable? If x knew I always go this way can they just play another way to beat it.

Many thanks in advance!
I'm more than willing to share what I've found if anyone is interested.
FWIW most fall in line w/ jbs intermediate strategy w/ exceptions. The optimal strategy pdf is a tough to decipher if you're just beginning like I way.

So casinos just make money on player error and copy hands? It seems to good to be true. I cant see the casino making enough money to make it worth their while to pay a dealer, buy the tiles, supply the drinks, clean the chairs, etc....

The casinos only make money on the player fee, the wins and losses are collected by a player banker or an outside corporation that banks the game. Danny where do you play PG?

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

The casinos only make money on the player fee, the wins and losses are collected by a player banker or an outside corporation that banks the game. Danny where do you play PG?

What is the 'player fee'?

In California Card rooms the "casino" only provides the service of dealing the cards. Each hand in every game the players have to pay a fee commonly referred to as "juice". This is usually 1% of each bet rounded to the next dollar. So if your bet is anywhere from $5-100 you would pay a $1 fee before each hand is dealt. If you win the person who is banking the game would pay you, or if you lost the person banking would get your loss. There are corporations (companies) that provide a banking service. At the card room I work at they will cover up to $30,000 for each hand played. The player who is banking or the corporation that is banking usually pay around a $3 fee to the casino for each hand. Therefore the "house" does not really have any interest in the outcome of the game, they only provide the services and facilities for the game to be played and the player fee covers all the wages for the workers and to keep the building working. The players could win or lose millions and that wouldn't matter since their winnings/losses are not banked by the house. What does make the company money is a lot of players because the more players the more player fees they get.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

In California Card rooms the "casino" only provides the service of dealing the cards. Each hand in every game the players have to pay a fee commonly referred to as "juice". This is usually 1% of each bet rounded to the next dollar. So if your bet is anywhere from $5-100 you would pay a $1 fee before each hand is dealt. If you win the person who is banking the game would pay you, or if you lost the person banking would get your loss. There are corporations (companies) that provide a banking service. At the card room I work at they will cover up to $30,000 for each hand played. The player who is banking or the corporation that is banking usually pay around a $3 fee to the casino for each hand. Therefore the "house" does not really have any interest in the outcome of the game, they only provide the services and facilities for the game to be played and the player fee covers all the wages for the workers and to keep the building working. The players could win or lose millions and that wouldn't matter since their winnings/losses are not banked by the house. What does make the company money is a lot of players because the more players the more player fees they get.

So now I get it.... If you are a $25 paigow player you have no chance. You are paying $1 for every hand, including pushes and losses! I guess if you are $75 it is probably similar to what you pay a regular casino in commission. And if you are $100 you make out a little better.

Yep that is why short term play is only good for CA card rooms. You will almost always pay more in "juice" than you will win, but if you just want an hour or so of gambling it is easier to pay the juice than to drive to Reno or a native american place.

The card rooms make their money renting you your chair at an hourly rate or else nicking you for a fee every time you place a bet. The card room itself does not book the bets. The bets are paid off by a representative of the Banking Syndicate, often an unemployed actor, who guards the chips and does the dealing. The casino is just a corporate entity, the real money is made by the banking syndicate which often secretly owns the card room.

In a Washington card room, you will see the dealer stack chips in front of each player's bet up to the max that a player could win. This is the way the betting syndicate books the bet and demonstrates to each player that the bet will be paid off if it wins, the card room just rents the chair to the player and sells him burger and bag of chips or something.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

In California Card rooms the "casino" only provides the service of dealing the cards. Each hand in every game the players have to pay a fee commonly referred to as "juice". This is usually 1% of each bet rounded to the next dollar. So if your bet is anywhere from $5-100 you would pay a $1 fee before each hand is dealt. If you win the person who is banking the game would pay you, or if you lost the person banking would get your loss. There are corporations (companies) that provide a banking service. At the card room I work at they will cover up to $30,000 for each hand played. The player who is banking or the corporation that is banking usually pay around a $3 fee to the casino for each hand. Therefore the "house" does not really have any interest in the outcome of the game, they only provide the services and facilities for the game to be played and the player fee covers all the wages for the workers and to keep the building working. The players could win or lose millions and that wouldn't matter since their winnings/losses are not banked by the house. What does make the company money is a lot of players because the more players the more player fees they get.

This is pretty much spot on. The casino / floor have no interest in who wins or losses so long as the game is run fairly and smoothly. A caviat is there will always be a slight bias to players because they are customers who'll tip more. Different cardclubs vary in amount of 'juice' charged. For example the Oaks in Emeryville will charge $1 up to the first thousand dollars bet. The fee for banking one hand is $5 or $6. FWIW I work for one of the corporations so any general non specific questions I can probably answer. The club I work at only goes house way on tiles which is rather baffling which is why I decided to pursue this research.

Although I had known that California card rooms operated "differenty", I never knew just how different.

The direction my mind went is: If the house has no real interest, how much do they work to protect the game? I.E. Security and surveilance?

I don't think someone's going to barge in and steal a rack of white chips if that's what you're getting at. The cardroom has an incentive to keep the games and customers feeling and actually being safe if just for PR reasons. Security is always roaming the floor. They're in constant contact with surveilance who's always on the lookout for people to id (looks under 21) or potential situations (angry customers about to erupt). Sorry I have no stories about epic brawls and ocean's 11 type stuff.

If your angle is what about corporation guys or dealers pocketing chips and shorting the rake. It has happened before. You'd think given how hard it is to get a dealing job and the money that comes with it ( not excessive granted but decent) you wouldn't do something like that but it happens. We're always on the constant lookout.
We always clear of hands palms up after touching chips. I get so used to doing that I find myself doing it when I'm outside of work. Pants and shirts w/o pockets is standard in most corporations.


Also there are guys everynow and then that will past post bets when they have a big hand in 3-Card Poker or Blackjack. If we catch it we just notify the floor and they'll act accordingly. Likewise we watch for people giving cards to eachother. Really rare but it's been known to happen.

Yeah, I was thinking all those things, but most of all, cheaters: past posting and card swapping. After all, since such actions will not affect the house's bottom line, how much do they look out for that?