Is zero really a number?
November 25th, 2025 at 9:48:33 AM
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If it is, why is it so different from any other number? Adding or subtracting it from any other number does nothing. Multiply any other number by zero, and the answer is always zero. Early calculators used to indicate an error when you tried dividing by zero, but not any other number.
Why were the Romans able to rule their known world without the use of zero? They managed without a zero but couldn't do much without any of the other nine numbers.
The other nine numbers all follow set rules, but zero follows a different set. Most of the time, it functions as a normal number, but sometimes it, and only it, can go rogue.
Is zero the Pluto of numbers?
Why were the Romans able to rule their known world without the use of zero? They managed without a zero but couldn't do much without any of the other nine numbers.
The other nine numbers all follow set rules, but zero follows a different set. Most of the time, it functions as a normal number, but sometimes it, and only it, can go rogue.
Is zero the Pluto of numbers?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 25th, 2025 at 10:50:07 AM
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On a number line, zero is the number between 1 and -1. So if you believe in negative numbers (which you might not) then you must accept zero as a number.
There are many, many internet sites on this subject.
It is like asking whether 1 should be considered a prime number - if the definition of prime number should be changed by extending it to include 1.
There are many, many internet sites on this subject.
It is like asking whether 1 should be considered a prime number - if the definition of prime number should be changed by extending it to include 1.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 25th, 2025 at 10:57:35 AM
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Zero's properties where multiplying it by anything also yields zero, and dividing anything by it can't be done at all, are the whole point!
We all learned to appreciate the multiplicative property back in freshman algebra class, where you get a zero on one side of an equation and a bunch of factors on the other side, and you know at least one of those factors has to be zero. Back then I recognized solving that class of equation would be a lot harder if you couldn't do that. 5-7 years later in your differential equations class you'll be doing things that remind you of that too. But there was no algebra until the 9th century so it wasn't until well after the fall of Western Rome that they needed a zero.
In physics the property of zero where you can't divide by it is how you identify things that are wrong. Anything bad, evil, "non-physical," false, problematic, cannot exist etc. will have in it or lead in some way to a division by zero. The most fundamental of those is the Einstein & Lorentz Special Relativity equations where you have a term of sqrt(1-v2/c2) in the denominator, where c is the speed of light in vacuum and v is your velocity, and if they are both equal it's 1-1, which is zero, and you can take the square root of that and that's fine, that's also zero, but now it's in the denominator so you're screwed. That proves that there is no such thing as any real thing having a velocity of c. We didn't know it, but back in third grade when we were learning division and were told "Division by zero does not exist" we thought it was just another silly rule, but we had no idea that these really smart guys were basing their whole description of physical reality on the fact that it doesn't exist.
We all learned to appreciate the multiplicative property back in freshman algebra class, where you get a zero on one side of an equation and a bunch of factors on the other side, and you know at least one of those factors has to be zero. Back then I recognized solving that class of equation would be a lot harder if you couldn't do that. 5-7 years later in your differential equations class you'll be doing things that remind you of that too. But there was no algebra until the 9th century so it wasn't until well after the fall of Western Rome that they needed a zero.
In physics the property of zero where you can't divide by it is how you identify things that are wrong. Anything bad, evil, "non-physical," false, problematic, cannot exist etc. will have in it or lead in some way to a division by zero. The most fundamental of those is the Einstein & Lorentz Special Relativity equations where you have a term of sqrt(1-v2/c2) in the denominator, where c is the speed of light in vacuum and v is your velocity, and if they are both equal it's 1-1, which is zero, and you can take the square root of that and that's fine, that's also zero, but now it's in the denominator so you're screwed. That proves that there is no such thing as any real thing having a velocity of c. We didn't know it, but back in third grade when we were learning division and were told "Division by zero does not exist" we thought it was just another silly rule, but we had no idea that these really smart guys were basing their whole description of physical reality on the fact that it doesn't exist.
November 25th, 2025 at 11:46:12 AM
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All I can add is it was Christmas a few years back. Some relative insisted a number divided by zero is zero.
I got about 9 cookies and said.....
"Put those in equal piles of zero with none left over."
Eventually we ate the cookies.
I got about 9 cookies and said.....
"Put those in equal piles of zero with none left over."
Eventually we ate the cookies.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
November 25th, 2025 at 11:59:00 AM
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Saved By Zero...
November 25th, 2025 at 12:17:14 PM
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You can have negative numbers, but not negative zero.
Shouldn't it be 3,2,1 0,-0,-1, -2.....
1 and -1 are very different and not at all interchangeable. Negative zero, if it exists, has the exact same principles as zero. If it doesn't exist, it is yet another difference from the other nine
All indications are that zero was added much later than the other nine numbers and didn't get used in Western Europe until after the Crusades.
Another interesting factoid- zero seemingly developed in India and Central America almost at the same time, after the original nine numbers had been in use for over a thousand years.
Shouldn't it be 3,2,1 0,-0,-1, -2.....
1 and -1 are very different and not at all interchangeable. Negative zero, if it exists, has the exact same principles as zero. If it doesn't exist, it is yet another difference from the other nine
All indications are that zero was added much later than the other nine numbers and didn't get used in Western Europe until after the Crusades.
Another interesting factoid- zero seemingly developed in India and Central America almost at the same time, after the original nine numbers had been in use for over a thousand years.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 25th, 2025 at 12:28:50 PM
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Sometimes I walked past the bank sign in the middle of the night and it would say it was -0 degrees outside. I'm assuming that was rounded up from -0.4 through -0.1.
November 25th, 2025 at 1:39:23 PM
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Quote: billryanWhy were the Romans able to rule their known world without the use of zero? They managed without a zero but couldn't do much without any of the other nine numbers.
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Well, the Romans certainly understood the concept of the digit zero. Didn't most Romans use a base-10 abacus for calculations?
As for not needing zero, it certainly made things messy, especially with years - when they had to count the number of years from "before {something}" to "the year of {that same thing}," they couldn't just add up the two numbers.
November 25th, 2025 at 2:02:29 PM
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Quote: gordonm888
...It is like asking whether 1 should be considered a prime number - if the definition of prime number should be changed by extending it to include 1.
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I was taught that 1 is prime! It has to do with your age and the age of your teachers and your/their textbooks. And it works for the grade school definition of prime numbers, where it's almost like trivia and it doesn't break anything if you call 1 prime. It isn't until later in education and the practical uses of prime numbers where calling 1 prime doesn't work, it has to be excluded.
November 25th, 2025 at 2:10:15 PM
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Quote: ThatDonGuyQuote: billryanWhy were the Romans able to rule their known world without the use of zero? They managed without a zero but couldn't do much without any of the other nine numbers.
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Well, the Romans certainly understood the concept of the digit zero. Didn't most Romans use a base-10 abacus for calculations?
As for not needing zero, it certainly made things messy, especially with years - when they had to count the number of years from "before {something}" to "the year of {that same thing}," they couldn't just add up the two numbers.
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There is no Year Zero. The day after December 31, 1BC was January 1, 1 AD.
I had no idea Romans used an abacus. I thought they were an Asian instrument.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 25th, 2025 at 2:22:21 PM
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According to the NFL, zero has been a number since 2023.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
November 25th, 2025 at 2:54:21 PM
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Quote: billryanYou can have negative numbers, but not negative zero.
Shouldn't it be 3,2,1 0,-0,-1, -2.....
1 and -1 are very different and not at all interchangeable. Negative zero, if it exists, has the exact same principles as zero. If it doesn't exist, it is yet another difference from the other nine
All indications are that zero was added much later than the other nine numbers and didn't get used in Western Europe until after the Crusades.
Another interesting factoid- zero seemingly developed in India and Central America almost at the same time, after the original nine numbers had been in use for over a thousand years.
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-n is -1 times n. If n=0, -n=-1x0=0.
So they are the same which is why the number line can be written as 3, 2, 1, 0=-0, -1, -2, -3, etc. 7 entries from 3 down to -3, not 8.
November 25th, 2025 at 7:47:20 PM
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If you have 1 and subtract 1 you have 0. If there was no 0 you would not have zero coke, it would just be coke.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
November 26th, 2025 at 12:30:10 AM
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Quote: vegasIf you have 1 and subtract 1 you have 0. If there was no 0 you would not have zero coke, it would just be coke.
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You're telling me that's all it takes? And I've been paying $100/g to that clown at the Flamingo for his weak junk?
November 26th, 2025 at 1:33:41 AM
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Zero is a number just like any ohter number. The fact that arithmetic calculations and computations using it create results that are not obtainable by using another number in its place makes it unique among numbers, the same as all other numbers are unique. The absence of zero in certain cultures of antiquity means two things. One, that my ancient Greco-Roman fore-bearers, as smart as they were, were also stupid. And two, in the words of Stephen Hawking, you can't think of everything.
November 26th, 2025 at 1:55:02 AM
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Roman numerals are a non-positional system and zero only has use in a positional system, with a base. How would you use zero in Roman numerals?
There was no algebra in the classical empires and geometry was well developed, but that was mostly based on verbal descriptions and Euclidean construction with the compass and straightedge rather than numbers. Romans used numbers mostly for counting and their numbers are derived from tallying with scratches. So their "zero" would be just a blank tabula, they haven't tallied anything yet. (Whenever I say "tally" I get hungry for bananas. Can't explain it.)
There was no algebra in the classical empires and geometry was well developed, but that was mostly based on verbal descriptions and Euclidean construction with the compass and straightedge rather than numbers. Romans used numbers mostly for counting and their numbers are derived from tallying with scratches. So their "zero" would be just a blank tabula, they haven't tallied anything yet. (Whenever I say "tally" I get hungry for bananas. Can't explain it.)
November 26th, 2025 at 2:38:00 AM
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Daylight's coming and I want to go home.Just watch out for the deadly black tarantula.
November 26th, 2025 at 4:22:47 AM
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something tells me this is clever, but I don't get itQuote: JoemanAccording to the NFL, zero has been a number since 2023.
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the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 26th, 2025 at 4:41:37 AM
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In 2023, the NFL changed its jersey numbering rules, allowing players to wear the number zero.Quote: odiousgambitsomething tells me this is clever, but I don't get itQuote: JoemanAccording to the NFL, zero has been a number since 2023.
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"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
November 26th, 2025 at 5:42:47 AM
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AutomaticMonkey's digression into the role of zero in physics is important.
The existence of zero (or the limit as you approach zero) is what gives rise in physics to singularities.
If there are two protons separated by a distance X and X=0, the repulsive EM energy is infinite and the laws of physics break down. Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms then "Houston, we have a singularity: infinite energy"
The existence of zero (or the limit as you approach zero) is what gives rise in physics to singularities.
If there are two protons separated by a distance X and X=0, the repulsive EM energy is infinite and the laws of physics break down. Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms then "Houston, we have a singularity: infinite energy"
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 26th, 2025 at 5:50:06 AM
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I was thinking the same thing!Quote: gordonm888Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms
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Liar
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 26th, 2025 at 6:59:02 AM
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Quote: GenoDRPhZero is a number just like any ohter number. The fact that arithmetic calculations and computations using it create results that are not obtainable by using another number in its place makes it unique among numbers, the same as all other numbers are unique. The absence of zero in certain cultures of antiquity means two things. One, that my ancient Greco-Roman fore-bearers, as smart as they were, were also stupid. And two, in the words of Stephen Hawking, you can't think of everything.
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It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 26th, 2025 at 11:49:47 AM
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AI wrote: Hexadecimal (base-16): Uses the digits 0–9 and the letters A–F.
November 26th, 2025 at 12:24:08 PM
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That is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is and not use zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
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the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 26th, 2025 at 12:34:56 PM
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Quote: JoemanIn 2023, the NFL changed its jersey numbering rules, allowing players to wear the number zero.Quote: odiousgambitsomething tells me this is clever, but I don't get itQuote: JoemanAccording to the NFL, zero has been a number since 2023.
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Changed them back. Jim Otto was the great double-zero from the 70s. He did a little trick there- we remember him as this huge guy but he was actually very small for a center. The 00 on his jersey made him look more physically imposing.
But before that I think it was back in the 50s before the numbers were coded to positions that some guy had a straight up 0, I remember reading about. Forgot who.
November 26th, 2025 at 12:49:30 PM
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Quote: gordonm888AutomaticMonkey's digression into the role of zero in physics is important.
The existence of zero (or the limit as you approach zero) is what gives rise in physics to singularities.
If there are two protons separated by a distance X and X=0, the repulsive EM energy is infinite and the laws of physics break down. Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms then "Houston, we have a singularity: infinite energy"
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Don't worry, the infinite gravity between the two protons cancels it out! Infinity minus infinity.
That's part of my kooky, crazy explanation for the quantum entanglement, "spooky action at a distance". Get the two particles close enough, within a Planck and the acceleration is so much time stops for them relative to our frame of reference and we're all gone before we are able to separate them, from their point of view. So they're really still together. Just not to us, only to them.
November 26th, 2025 at 1:33:56 PM
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Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: gordonm888AutomaticMonkey's digression into the role of zero in physics is important.
The existence of zero (or the limit as you approach zero) is what gives rise in physics to singularities.
If there are two protons separated by a distance X and X=0, the repulsive EM energy is infinite and the laws of physics break down. Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms then "Houston, we have a singularity: infinite energy"
link to original post
Don't worry, the infinite gravity between the two protons cancels it out! Infinity minus infinity.
That's part of my kooky, crazy explanation for the quantum entanglement, "spooky action at a distance". Get the two particles close enough, within a Planck and the acceleration is so much time stops for them relative to our frame of reference and we're all gone before we are able to separate them, from their point of view. So they're really still together. Just not to us, only to them.
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Very creative, but quantum entanglement occurs with photons too. Obviously no repulsive EM force with those.
And hard to believe that two particles can accelerate up to near light speed without almost any displacement.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 26th, 2025 at 1:42:18 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
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How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 26th, 2025 at 2:58:45 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: gordonm888AutomaticMonkey's digression into the role of zero in physics is important.
The existence of zero (or the limit as you approach zero) is what gives rise in physics to singularities.
If there are two protons separated by a distance X and X=0, the repulsive EM energy is infinite and the laws of physics break down. Protons (and atomic nuclei) can be conceptualized as wave functions and if there is zero spatial separation in the two waveforms then "Houston, we have a singularity: infinite energy"
link to original post
Don't worry, the infinite gravity between the two protons cancels it out! Infinity minus infinity.
That's part of my kooky, crazy explanation for the quantum entanglement, "spooky action at a distance". Get the two particles close enough, within a Planck and the acceleration is so much time stops for them relative to our frame of reference and we're all gone before we are able to separate them, from their point of view. So they're really still together. Just not to us, only to them.
link to original post
Very creative, but quantum entanglement occurs with photons too. Obviously no repulsive EM force with those.
And hard to believe that two particles can accelerate up to near light speed without almost any displacement.
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I'm thinking about it in terms of time dilation due to acceleration itself. The good old clock on the roof running faster than the clock in the basement experiment. So no EM force would be necessary, just anything with any kind of mass and capable of getting close enough to each other where their clocks stop relative to the outside world.
Who knows, uncertainty might be the way the universe avoids division by zero problems. Can't get any denominators lower than 1.6x10-35 m no matter how hard we try.
November 26th, 2025 at 3:08:27 PM
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Quote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
Again I think you need to look at it from the way the ancients were using numbers. Just for counting. And you don't need to start counting things until you have at least one of them.
Most of the ancient manuscripts and tablets we recover turn out to have been business records. We can see how they used numbers for that and due to the non-positional character of their system they shouldn't have needed a zero. Someone might say "I was owed CCCL drachmas, and the debt was settled with IV sheep and II Abyssinian slaves" but he wouldn't need to say "Now the debt is 0."
November 26th, 2025 at 3:45:49 PM
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Romans handled business transactions from Scots Land to the Ganges, and moved military formations of tens of thousands of men.
The Persians invaded Greece with a million-man army without zeros. There is no zero in the Old Testament. There is no zero in the New Testament. While it seems to have originated in India, zero closely follows the spread of Islam.
In the new world, the Mayans began using it around the same time as it was adopted in India, but it never spread beyond the Mayan empire. Neither the Aztecs nor the Incas saw the need for it. They had indoor plumbing and ate ice cream all summer, but somehow got by without using zero.
I'm not anti-zero, I'm just trying to understand why it doesn't function like every other one and why we managed without it for thousands of years.
In China, a space was the equivalent of zero although it is hard to translate. Two would 2, twenty would be 2 . and 200 would be 2 .
Around 800, the zero had spread to the Middle East, and Venetian traders brought it to Europe. However, it wasn't widely used until the 12th Century when Fibonacci popularized the use of Arabic numbers.
The Persians invaded Greece with a million-man army without zeros. There is no zero in the Old Testament. There is no zero in the New Testament. While it seems to have originated in India, zero closely follows the spread of Islam.
In the new world, the Mayans began using it around the same time as it was adopted in India, but it never spread beyond the Mayan empire. Neither the Aztecs nor the Incas saw the need for it. They had indoor plumbing and ate ice cream all summer, but somehow got by without using zero.
I'm not anti-zero, I'm just trying to understand why it doesn't function like every other one and why we managed without it for thousands of years.
In China, a space was the equivalent of zero although it is hard to translate. Two would 2, twenty would be 2 . and 200 would be 2 .
Around 800, the zero had spread to the Middle East, and Venetian traders brought it to Europe. However, it wasn't widely used until the 12th Century when Fibonacci popularized the use of Arabic numbers.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 26th, 2025 at 3:46:45 PM
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Quote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
November 26th, 2025 at 4:01:01 PM
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Quote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
link to original post
No, they did not have zero. Rome fell around the time the zero was first used in India. Babylon was a distant memory when true zero came into use. They began using a zero-like number towards the end of their empire. The Arabs didn't use it until the 700s, after they had conquered most of Spain.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 26th, 2025 at 4:46:57 PM
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AI wrote: Why does Siri say the world will end in 2038?
The end of time : r/ProgrammerHumor
Siri's response is a joke that references the "Year 2038 problem," a potential bug in some computer systems that could cause them to misinterpret the date after January 19, 2038. This happens because 32-bit operating systems store time as the number of seconds since January 1, 1970, and a 32-bit integer will run out of space to store that number. The problem is largely being addressed by updating systems to 64-bit, so the world will not end, but some older, un-updated systems could be affected.
The end of time : r/ProgrammerHumor
Siri's response is a joke that references the "Year 2038 problem," a potential bug in some computer systems that could cause them to misinterpret the date after January 19, 2038. This happens because 32-bit operating systems store time as the number of seconds since January 1, 1970, and a 32-bit integer will run out of space to store that number. The problem is largely being addressed by updating systems to 64-bit, so the world will not end, but some older, un-updated systems could be affected.
November 26th, 2025 at 5:39:25 PM
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We can do it the way they did it, but we need the zero to be able to do math like we do, to add divide subtract multiply in a better system. And maybe quantum physics needs zero too, can't speak to thatQuote: billryan
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs?
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if you add 8+3, you get 11, and the fact eleven takes two columns is our system. The Romans would add VIII + III and get XI , with the columns all over the place, columns meaning nothing. We add 8+2 and get 10, needing the zero. The Romans didn't, the answer was X. But can't you see especially as this gets more complicated the zero is irreplaceable in our system. The Romans had a real grind with complicated computations. We need the zero because we want simplicity in computations.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 27th, 2025 at 1:52:54 AM
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Quote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
link to original post
No, they did not have zero. Rome fell around the time the zero was first used in India. Babylon was a distant memory when true zero came into use. They began using a zero-like number towards the end of their empire. The Arabs didn't use it until the 700s, after they had conquered most of Spain.
link to original post
The Romans expanded beyond the outskirts of their malaria-ridden city, and created an empire. They built large structures and building and monuments, many still standing today. They created roads still in use today. They invented a self-healing concrete that is still better than anything scientists and engineers can crate today. Their culture and influence crated the basis for all of Western Civilization. Imagine how much more advanced they would have been if they just used that darned number zero...
November 27th, 2025 at 7:28:17 AM
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Zero is indeed even.
Zero can be used to define the number 1.
1 = n0 where n is any number.
Zero can be used to define the number 1.
1 = n0 where n is any number.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 27th, 2025 at 7:34:21 AM
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Quote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
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How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
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They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
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No, they did not have zero. Rome fell around the time the zero was first used in India. Babylon was a distant memory when true zero came into use. They began using a zero-like number towards the end of their empire. The Arabs didn't use it until the 700s, after they had conquered most of Spain.
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The Romans expanded beyond the outskirts of their malaria-ridden city, and created an empire. They built large structures and building and monuments, many still standing today. They created roads still in use today. They invented a self-healing concrete that is still better than anything scientists and engineers can crate today. Their culture and influence crated the basis for all of Western Civilization. Imagine how much more advanced they would have been if they just used that darned number zero...
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Malaria didn't exist in Rome for most of its glory days. It was introduced to the city in the first century AD, almost certainly by traders returning from Africa. I'm not sure what malaria has to do with zero, but the Romans got by without either.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 27th, 2025 at 8:31:50 AM
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you've got me wondering how the Romans etc multiplied
since number can be broken up into parts and those parts multiplied, then added up, they probably did that
525 times 354 can be broken up into,
500 x 300 = 150,000
20 x 300 = 6,000
5 x 300 = 1500
500 x 50 = 25,000
20 x 50= 1000
5 × 50 = 250
500 x 4 = 2000
20 x 4= 80
5 × 4 = 20
sum of all those results is 185,850
requires memorization and recognition, or further breakup needed, and somebody good at adding up numbers without the columns we use today
since number can be broken up into parts and those parts multiplied, then added up, they probably did that
525 times 354 can be broken up into,
500 x 300 = 150,000
20 x 300 = 6,000
5 x 300 = 1500
500 x 50 = 25,000
20 x 50= 1000
5 × 50 = 250
500 x 4 = 2000
20 x 4= 80
5 × 4 = 20
sum of all those results is 185,850
requires memorization and recognition, or further breakup needed, and somebody good at adding up numbers without the columns we use today
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 27th, 2025 at 11:00:02 AM
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Quote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
link to original post
No, they did not have zero. Rome fell around the time the zero was first used in India. Babylon was a distant memory when true zero came into use. They began using a zero-like number towards the end of their empire. The Arabs didn't use it until the 700s, after they had conquered most of Spain.
link to original post
The Romans expanded beyond the outskirts of their malaria-ridden city, and created an empire. They built large structures and building and monuments, many still standing today. They created roads still in use today. They invented a self-healing concrete that is still better than anything scientists and engineers can crate today. Their culture and influence crated the basis for all of Western Civilization. Imagine how much more advanced they would have been if they just used that darned number zero...
link to original post
Malaria didn't exist in Rome for most of its glory days. It was introduced to the city in the first century AD, almost certainly by traders returning from Africa. I'm not sure what malaria has to do with zero, but the Romans got by without either.
link to original post
What is this fixation thinking knowledge stops at a certain period in time, and the ancients had all the answers because they "got by' without knowing what we know today? I mean, why do we have to be stuck in amber on this?
November 27th, 2025 at 11:14:28 AM
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If you think multiplying with Roman numerals is hard, try doing ratios and percentages.
What is XX1X percent of MMDCX1? Roman accountants/bookkeepers could manage the finances of a far-flung empire and equip and feed troops from Northern England to the Middle East.
What is XX1X percent of MMDCX1? Roman accountants/bookkeepers could manage the finances of a far-flung empire and equip and feed troops from Northern England to the Middle East.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 27th, 2025 at 11:22:27 AM
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Quote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitThat is a real flat earth argument. Not needed? So you want to discard our current manner of counting and arithmetic etc? How can we keep what it is without using zero?Quote: billryan
It shows me that zero is not needed, and is a shortcut rather than a valid number.
link to original post
link to original post
How did the Romans do it? How did the Russians do it? The Chinese? The Aztecs? Perhaps the problem is too many zeroes.
A number is odd or even. Is zero either one?
I'm not advocating eliminating the use of zero. It makes math much easier, but its quirky properties separate it from its cousins.
link to original post
They got around the problem of not having a zero by somehow getting around the problem. Yet, at the same, in Arabia, Persia, the Indian subcontinent and Babylon, they had zero. And zero is an even number.
Next, someone here is going to try and convince us that 1x1=2...
link to original post
No, they did not have zero. Rome fell around the time the zero was first used in India. Babylon was a distant memory when true zero came into use. They began using a zero-like number towards the end of their empire. The Arabs didn't use it until the 700s, after they had conquered most of Spain.
link to original post
The Romans expanded beyond the outskirts of their malaria-ridden city, and created an empire. They built large structures and building and monuments, many still standing today. They created roads still in use today. They invented a self-healing concrete that is still better than anything scientists and engineers can crate today. Their culture and influence crated the basis for all of Western Civilization. Imagine how much more advanced they would have been if they just used that darned number zero...
link to original post
Malaria didn't exist in Rome for most of its glory days. It was introduced to the city in the first century AD, almost certainly by traders returning from Africa. I'm not sure what malaria has to do with zero, but the Romans got by without either.
link to original post
What is this fixation thinking knowledge stops at a certain period in time, and the ancients had all the answers because they "got by' without knowing what we know today? I mean, why do we have to be stuck in amber on this?
link to original post
Same way we got to the moon with slide rules. Ancient people had specialized knowledge for doing the things they did, the way they did them, with what they had available. Roman concrete is a fine example of it, and now we know that using all that volcanic ash they had available made it just as strong but lighter and more durable. But they had geniuses among them who were able to figure this out then.
Like if we got an extraterrestrial visit, and in their technology they went right from electric power to rudimentary semiconductors. Let's say in their 1915 people were doing things with germanium and silicon and someone accidentally made a functioning semiconductor, and their electronics proceeded from there. Then they look at our technological history and they see that for 40 years we... what??? Oh my God, look what they did with these evacuated glass tubes! They made advanced radio communications and even basic computers with them. What an ingenious species!
November 27th, 2025 at 12:02:44 PM
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I'm bailing out of this thread but I hope at this point you don't think we can just get rid of the zero as a practical matterQuote: billryanIf you think multiplying with Roman numerals is hard, try doing ratios and percentages.
What is XX1X percent of MMDCX1? Roman accountants/bookkeepers could manage the finances of a far-flung empire and equip and feed troops from Northern England to the Middle East.
link to original post
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 27th, 2025 at 12:02:46 PM
permalink
Duplicate
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 27th, 2025 at 12:29:46 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitI'm bailing out of this thread but I hope at this point you don't think we can just get rid of the zero as a practical matterQuote: billryanIf you think multiplying with Roman numerals is hard, try doing ratios and percentages.
What is XX1X percent of MMDCX1? Roman accountants/bookkeepers could manage the finances of a far-flung empire and equip and feed troops from Northern England to the Middle East.
link to original post
link to original post
As a practical matter? No. As a whimsical experiment, why not?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 27th, 2025 at 12:32:49 PM
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Quote: billryanQuote: odiousgambitI'm bailing out of this thread but I hope at this point you don't think we can just get rid of the zero as a practical matterQuote: billryanIf you think multiplying with Roman numerals is hard, try doing ratios and percentages.
What is XX1X percent of MMDCX1? Roman accountants/bookkeepers could manage the finances of a far-flung empire and equip and feed troops from Northern England to the Middle East.
link to original post
link to original post
As a practical matter? No. As a whimsical experiment, why not?
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If you want to live as the ancient Romans do, have at it. Let us know how it works out for you.
November 27th, 2025 at 12:52:20 PM
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I've got feelers out for a few body slaves, but have yet to find any worthy candidates.
Instead of going cold turkey, I started slow by removing the decimal point. Another modern invention that I can do without.
Instead of going cold turkey, I started slow by removing the decimal point. Another modern invention that I can do without.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 27th, 2025 at 1:19:57 PM
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Quote: billryanI've got feelers out for a few body slaves, but have yet to find any worthy candidates.
Instead of going cold turkey, I started slow by removing the decimal point. Another modern invention that I can do without.
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Are you sure? The decimal point is another great Italian invention!
November 27th, 2025 at 4:55:20 PM
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While we're at it, I suppose we can wonder how Cicero wrote as much as he did when he didn't even have articles in his language, and many pronouns aren't commonly used. You would rarely use ego in writing when you are talking about something you are doing, you would just use the first person singular form of the verb for what you are doing. That can't be anyone but you.
Modern English is a very advanced language but our verbs are barely inflected, and unlike almost every other Western language our nouns don't have genders. German nouns have 3 genders which don't really correspond to anything, they're just historical, articles, pronouns, and adjectives associated with them have the same genders, and there are a bunch of ways to conjugate every verb. You need all that to speak proper German. Latin is the same. We express ourselves a little less precisely but more efficiently without any of it. Just a different system we use where we don't need it. Numbers are the same. If some people used an octal system for numbers they wouldn't have a numeral 9 but they wouldn't miss it.
Modern English is a very advanced language but our verbs are barely inflected, and unlike almost every other Western language our nouns don't have genders. German nouns have 3 genders which don't really correspond to anything, they're just historical, articles, pronouns, and adjectives associated with them have the same genders, and there are a bunch of ways to conjugate every verb. You need all that to speak proper German. Latin is the same. We express ourselves a little less precisely but more efficiently without any of it. Just a different system we use where we don't need it. Numbers are the same. If some people used an octal system for numbers they wouldn't have a numeral 9 but they wouldn't miss it.
