100xOdds
100xOdds
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May 14th, 2023 at 11:24:30 AM permalink
Lost $3k on a play. I estimate the machine only returned 60%.
That was in the morning.

Throughout the day about 80% of plays lost. Down another $2k.
Constantly losing $ on plays put me on tilt. ($100 here, couple hundred there...)
I haven't had this bad of a losing streak in a while.

I was going to leave since it's lunch time.
Then i saw a $500 mhb that might be playable if ploppies put in a few hundred $ more so maybe in a couple more hrs.
But I don't have a couple of hrs. I'm leaving for the day now.

Unfortunately, i'm pissed off at my losing streak so i sit down and started playing it.
Lucky for me, it doesn't have speed stop.
Played down to the nearest hundred hoping for a Bonus round then cashed out. (No Bonus)
Yeah, as you can tell, i'm not thinking logically at this point if i'm gambling/hoping that the next few spins will be a Bonus instead of cashing out immediately.

I don't expect an external factor to save me from blowing $ next time.
So how do i get myself to leave when I know I'm on tilt?
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 14, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
odiousgambit
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May 14th, 2023 at 11:31:29 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


So how do i get myself to leave when I know I'm on tilt?
link to original post



........................................... OK so maybe not helpful

but I'm drawing a blank

I dunno guy, sometimes you have to get professional help if it's really a problem. As far as getting help here, not the best place.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MrV
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May 14th, 2023 at 1:53:25 PM permalink
I don't know how you fund your gambling, but if you find it tough to leave then try the following:

1) Bring cash, and only an amount you would be comfortable to lose;

2) Don't use casino credit or cash a check at the cage.

3) Don't use an ATM; if need be, leave your cards at home.

Last edited by: MrV on May 14, 2023
"What, me worry?"
billryan
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May 14th, 2023 at 1:59:33 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I don't know how you fund your gambling, but if you find it tough to leave then try the following:

1) Bring cash, and only an amount you would be comfortable to lose;

2) Don't use casino credit, or cash a check at the cage.

3) Don't use an ATM; if need be, leave your cards at home.


link to original post



Precisely. If you only bring what you can afford to lose, you can't lose more than you can afford. It's a lesson I learned the hard way, but I turned an epic screwup into a learning experience.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ChumpChange
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May 14th, 2023 at 2:03:49 PM permalink
I'd say the machine is on tilt with such a low payout percentage.
DRich
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May 14th, 2023 at 4:11:05 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


So how do i get myself to leave when I know I'm on tilt?



You are asking the wrong question. The question should be, "How do I prevent myself from going on tilt?"

The "easy" answer is to never bet an amount of money that will put you on tilt. I always tried to limit my daily loss to 2% of my bankroll. If you can do that I don't think many people will go on tilt losing 2% of their bankroll. If your bankroll is $50,000 quit for the day if you lose $1000.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
rainman
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May 14th, 2023 at 4:27:14 PM permalink
Time, Discipline and self-control can be practiced you are fighting chemical releases in your brain.
Try this, You impose a rule the rule is the next time negative variance is effecting your emotions
negatively you must exit the casino for 15mins and not enter another. This will give you time to come
down from the chemical release and gather yourself. You may find by doing this you will decide to go
home after gathering yourself. The struggle comes from within be the boss make the rule.

Don't cheat yourself either you will know exactly when the rule must be applied.
SOOPOO
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odiousgambitUP84Mukke
May 14th, 2023 at 5:05:38 PM permalink
I think you consider yourself an AP? You use the word ‘plays’ which a casual gambler wouldn’t use. So each new bet should be a calculated decision. What is your bankroll? What is the EV of the play? What is the variance? What does Kelly tell you to do? Forget this bullshit excuse of ‘on tilt’!!!! You should NEVER make a bet that you haven’t determined is appropriate according to the criteria you use. If you feel you EVER need to leave a casino to ‘protect’ against making a foolish bet you shouldn’t put a foot in the casino.

Sorry to be so blunt.
rainman
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100xOdds
May 14th, 2023 at 5:24:50 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I think you consider yourself an AP? You use the word ‘plays’ which a casual gambler wouldn’t use. So each new bet should be a calculated decision. What is your bankroll? What is the EV of the play? What is the variance? What does Kelly tell you to do? Forget this bullshit excuse of ‘on tilt’!!!! You should NEVER make a bet that you haven’t determined is appropriate according to the criteria you use. If you feel you EVER need to leave a casino to ‘protect’ against making a foolish bet you shouldn’t put a foot in the casino.

Sorry to be so blunt.
link to original post



Very unrealistic, would you apply this to all human activity across the board? example Athletes lose control (go on tilt) should they quit?
Tyson bit off a chunk of Holyfeilds ear should he have chosen to never fight again? Losing self control happens in all facets of human
existence the Idea is to overcome not quit.
darkoz
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DieterTalldude90Mukke
May 14th, 2023 at 5:51:06 PM permalink
My suggestion is to bring along a partner to help with the AP.

Hopefully it's a play that two people can work together on

Your partner can help if he sees you going on tilt. Even if it's just to say "hey, partner, there isn't going to be any money for us to split if you keep up. You not going to screw me over are you?"

If you are a decent person (which you sound like) that realization should help curb your tilt.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Talldude90
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May 15th, 2023 at 12:46:39 AM permalink
Each and every time something changes re-evaluate the play. Ask yourself if you would even sit down if you saw this walking by. If no, get your arse up like that seat is on fire. If you are going to gamble at least do it at an close to even EV (taking a play slightly early) or go play craps or BJ for a few resolutions at min bet (expected loss of that is peanuts vs even 1 min of speed tapping).
100xOdds
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May 15th, 2023 at 4:27:59 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I don't know how you fund your gambling, but if you find it tough to leave then try the following:

1) Bring cash, and only an amount you would be comfortable to lose;
2) Don't use casino credit or cash a check at the cage.
3) Don't use an ATM; if need be, leave your cards at home.

link to original post


Quote: billryan

Precisely. If you only bring what you can afford to lose, you can't lose more than you can afford. It's a lesson I learned the hard way, but I turned an epic screwup into a learning experience.
link to original post


Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds


So how do i get myself to leave when I know I'm on tilt?


You are asking the wrong question. The question should be, "How do I prevent myself from going on tilt?"

The "easy" answer is to never bet an amount of money that will put you on tilt. I always tried to limit my daily loss to 2% of my bankroll. If you can do that I don't think many people will go on tilt losing 2% of their bankroll. If your bankroll is $50,000 quit for the day if you lose $1000.
link to original post


I haven't been on a bad enough tilt that I will start something questionable that i don't have the funds to finish.
Unfortunately, that includes my ATM card.
Fortunately, I've never had to use it while on tilt.

I have a gambling acct. I can afford to lose everything in that acct.
The only bankcard i have on me is for that bank so i can't goto my main bank in person to withdraw funds.
(My gambling bank is the closest bank to my local casino.)

As for 'never bet an amount of money that will put me on tilt':
It was more the constant loses that day than the $ amount.
Don't get me wrong. Losing $3k off the bat was a contributing factor.

I would have been fine if:
- i made some $ on that 1st play then all the small loses afterwards.
- I lost $3k but all subsequent plays made $ as expected
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 15, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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May 15th, 2023 at 5:00:03 AM permalink
Quote: rainman

Time, Discipline and self-control can be practiced you are fighting chemical releases in your brain.

Try this, You impose a rule. the rule is the next time negative variance is effecting your emotions negatively you must exit the casino for 15mins and not enter another.
This will give you time to come down from the chemical release and gather yourself. You may find by doing this you will decide to go home after gathering yourself.

The struggle comes from within. be the boss make the rule.
Don't cheat yourself either you will know exactly when the rule must be applied.
link to original post


Quote: Talldude90

Each and every time something changes re-evaluate the play. Ask yourself if you would even sit down if you saw this walking by. If no, get your arse up like that seat is on fire.

If you are going to gamble at least do it at an close to even EV (taking a play slightly early) or go play craps or BJ for a few resolutions at min bet (expected loss of that is peanuts vs even 1 min of speed tapping).
link to original post


Like giving myself a time out?

Unfortunately, in the specific situation in my OP, if i left the casino to cool off then it would be the rest of the day.
I was on tilt and didn't want to leave for the rest of the day while this $500 mhb at -ev state was calling for me.

Yeah, i need to remind myself to not be a ploppie playing -EV for no good reason.
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 15, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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May 15th, 2023 at 5:12:22 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

My suggestion is to bring along a partner to help with the AP.

Hopefully it's a play that two people can work together on

Your partner can help if he sees you going on tilt. Even if it's just to say "hey, partner, there isn't going to be any money for us to split if you keep up. You not going to screw me over are you?"

If you are a decent person (which you sound like) that realization should help curb your tilt.
link to original post

I've only partnered on 5 figure plays.
Sometimes we made $, sometimes we lost 4 figures each.
When the machine is no longer +ev (ie: we hit our goal), we split the $ then and there so if I (or him) keeps on playing, then it doesnt affect the other person.

I have made friends with some APs and when I see them playing something I wouldn't, i would come over and ask why are they are playing this.

If their answer makes no sense (ie: I dumped so much $ into this machine on a +ev play that didn't work out, it's bound to pay out soon) then i would suggest they walk away.
NEVER have they ever listened to me.

I'm 1 for 2 in listening to them saying that's not a play. The one i listened to was because he said that's not even close to being a play.
I looked again and logic took over. It would have been many bonus rounds to get it unless i get lucky.
I was hoping to get lucky and minimized how long it would take if i didn't get lucky.

*Lightbulb*
When I know I need to get lucky to make $ off a machine instead of math says i should make $, then I need to make a bee line for the exit for 15min to start thinking straight again
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 15, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Mukke
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May 15th, 2023 at 9:10:16 AM permalink
> Tyson bit off a chunk of Holyfeilds ear should he have chosen to never fight again?

Yes. More over, Someone else (aka law enforcement) should have chosen to put him away for assault.
TomG
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May 15th, 2023 at 9:35:39 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

If you feel you EVER need to leave a casino to ‘protect’ against making a foolish bet you shouldn’t put a foot in the casino.



Abstinence may always be an option, I completely disagree that would ever be a requirement, no matter how harmful the behavior is. A single instance of losing control and losing a relatively small amount is about the most trivial gambling related harm possible.
SOOPOO
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May 15th, 2023 at 9:59:24 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

Quote: SOOPOO

If you feel you EVER need to leave a casino to ‘protect’ against making a foolish bet you shouldn’t put a foot in the casino.



Abstinence may always be an option, I completely disagree that would ever be a requirement, no matter how harmful the behavior is. A single instance of losing control and losing a relatively small amount is about the most trivial gambling related harm possible.
link to original post



Having read his recent post discussing some of the actual bets and results, it doesn’t really sound like he went ‘on tilt’. It sounds like he encountered negative variance and was unhappy about it. I think the real question is how to deal with the inevitable bad streaks that will happen if you play enough. It sounds like OP has actually figured it out with separated bank accounts, a true bankroll for gambling, and honest record keeping.

I’d ask him…. despite this so called ‘tilt’, how much are you up the last 6 months?
100xOdds
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May 15th, 2023 at 11:37:44 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: TomG

Quote: SOOPOO

If you feel you EVER need to leave a casino to ‘protect’ against making a foolish bet you shouldn’t put a foot in the casino.


Abstinence may always be an option, I completely disagree that would ever be a requirement, no matter how harmful the behavior is. A single instance of losing control and losing a relatively small amount is about the most trivial gambling related harm possible.
link to original post


Having read his recent post discussing some of the actual bets and results, it doesn’t really sound like he went ‘on tilt’. It sounds like he encountered negative variance and was unhappy about it.
I think the real question is how to deal with the inevitable bad streaks that will happen if you play enough. It sounds like OP has actually figured it out with separated bank accounts, a true bankroll for gambling, and honest record keeping.

I’d ask him…. despite this so called ‘tilt’, how much are you up the last 6 months?
link to original post

Negative variance with a big loss and a string of smaller loses made me more than unhappy. I was on tilt.
I knew I was taking the game pretty early (thus -EV) but "What's losing a few hundred more?"
I didn't care if i lost the rest of the $ on me at that point.
The only thing that saved me was the slot didn't have speed stop.
Even then, I still played down to the nearest hundred hoping for a bonus instead of immediately cashing out. (There's no logic in doing that for me.)

I'm still up.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
DRich
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May 15th, 2023 at 11:53:52 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


Even then, I still played down to the nearest hundred hoping for a bonus instead of immediately cashing out. (There's no logic in doing that for me.)



Almost everybody I know sets a number to cash out usually plus or minus from where they currently are. It makes absolutely no sense but I have found myself doing it too.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mukke
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May 15th, 2023 at 2:24:54 PM permalink
Quote: DRich


Almost everybody I know sets a number to cash out usually plus or minus from where they currently are. It makes absolutely no sense but I have found myself doing it too.
link to original post



As an AP, I actually find this sentiment strange. I basically do the opposite: I make sure I always have enough cash on me (or easily accessible) so that I do NOT risk running out of cash or hitting some arbitrary stop-loss point. That would be the absolute worst case possible.

If I was down $3000 (*) and had to leave, I wouldn't be sad I lost $3000. I would be pissed that the machine just ate $3000 bringing the machine from +EV to +VERYPOSITIVE EV. If the machine was EV when I started, in most(**) cases it's even higher EV after throwing money at it. If it was the right play initially it is definitely the right play now.

I can understand 2 caveats to the above:
1. Risk of machine logic having changed. Maybe the manufacturer changed the algorithm or the casino changed the payout, such that what you used to consider an AP play is no longer such. This is honestly one of my biggest fear as an AP when going for big plays. What if Regal riches was changed overnight so that bonuses only pay 50% on average of what they used to pay (and payouts on non-bonus plays was increased to offset it)? How long would we be playing the machine thinking it's just bad variance?

2. Limited bankroll. But then again, your bankroll management should probably be such that you don't engage in a play you won't be able to finish.

*: Random number for discussion's sake - for some people this is a low number, for some it's probably a high number.
**: Most machines tend to build EV in a continually upwards line until it either hits or fizzles. Though there are some machines where the EV nature is more complicated.
AxelWolf
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May 15th, 2023 at 5:30:59 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Quote: DRich


Almost everybody I know sets a number to cash out usually plus or minus from where they currently are. It makes absolutely no sense but I have found myself doing it too.
link to original post



As an AP, I actually find this sentiment strange. I basically do the opposite: I make sure I always have enough cash on me (or easily accessible) so that I do NOT risk running out of cash or hitting some arbitrary stop-loss point. That would be the absolute worst case possible.

If I was down $3000 (*) and had to leave, I wouldn't be sad I lost $3000. I would be pissed that the machine just ate $3000 bringing the machine from +EV to +VERYPOSITIVE EV. If the machine was EV when I started, in most(**) cases it's even higher EV after throwing money at it. If it was the right play initially it is definitely the right play now.

I can understand 2 caveats to the above:
1. Risk of machine logic having changed. Maybe the manufacturer changed the algorithm or the casino changed the payout, such that what you used to consider an AP play is no longer such. This is honestly one of my biggest fear as an AP when going for big plays. What if Regal riches was changed overnight so that bonuses only pay 50% on average of what they used to pay (and payouts on non-bonus plays was increased to offset it)? How long would we be playing the machine thinking it's just bad variance?

2. Limited bankroll. But then again, your bankroll management should probably be such that you don't engage in a play you won't be able to finish.

*: Random number for discussion's sake - for some people this is a low number, for some it's probably a high number.
**: Most machines tend to build EV in a continually upwards line until it either hits or fizzles. Though there are some machines where the EV nature is more complicated.
link to original post

I agree you shouldn't engage in a play you can't complete if completing it is required to to get your +EV. But there are plays that don't require that. It doesn't matter how long you play for or how much you bet, you still have +EV.

There are all kinds of do's and don't when engaging in Advantage Play, however, everyone is in a different situation. Sometimes, the do's and dont's can be different. I.E. never risk your entire bankroll and go broke no matter how good the play.
that's probably a good idea if you have no way to re-establish a bankroll, but perhaps you have a skill like programming or coding to fall back on and you can easily replenish your bankroll. Or perhaps you are a good enough AP where you can build back up from almost nothing.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Talldude90
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rainman
May 15th, 2023 at 5:53:37 PM permalink
My biggest problem is getting frustrated when you are at a casino and there are too many Vultures there. You can hardly find a play, and the temptation is to just start taking plays at breakeven or a little lower. Man I wish I lived in a location with a bunch of options there (my local shop is not far but then it's 3 hours or so to the next place and another hour to get to a 3rd).

It's easy to get on Tilt when you know you either find something or you've wasted you're whole gaming session. The solution for me for it has to be:
  1. Calling myself out on it mentally
  2. Taking a break (i have a nicotine addiction so in non-smoking casinos that's easy)
  3. Re-evaluating the circumstances and situation I am in

The biggest thing there though is identifying you have a problem, admitting to YOURSELF that, that is the case, then doing something about it. I find if I can directly call myself out on it then I can use whatever works best for what I need at the time to get myself back on track or to leave.
AxelWolf
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May 15th, 2023 at 6:12:55 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Do you want my honest opinion, criticism and advice?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DRich
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May 15th, 2023 at 6:26:08 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Quote: DRich


Almost everybody I know sets a number to cash out usually plus or minus from where they currently are. It makes absolutely no sense but I have found myself doing it too.
link to original post



As an AP, I actually find this sentiment strange. I basically do the opposite: I make sure I always have enough cash on me (or easily accessible) so that I do NOT risk running out of cash or hitting some arbitrary stop-loss point. That would be the absolute worst case possible.



I was not talking about running out of cash, just how 99% of gamblers when getting ready to quit will make some arbitrary remark like I am currently at $110, I will play until I get down to $100 or up to $120. It makes no sense, just cash out.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
100xOdds
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May 15th, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: 100xOdds

Do you want my honest opinion, criticism and advice?
link to original post

sure
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
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