The Cure? Is it Over?

Quote: Keyser

He's supposed to be the head guy! He's supposed to have access to all of the information and Intel. The president imposed the travel ban on Dec 31 and recognized the threat, why didn't Fauci???

Like I've said, I'm not impressed with the guy at all! I don't like the idea of him being in charge of recommending when we should impose or lift any kind of quarantine or social distancing.

Locking out foreigners hasn't seemed particularly challenging for this President. Not sure how much credit I want to give him for things that seem to come easy. YMMV.

That's absurd.

It seems to me that everybody dropped the ball on this one. I honestly think things would have played out the same way no matter who was in charge or in office.

Quote: AxelWolf

It seems to me that everybody dropped the ball on this one. I honestly think things would have played out the same way no matter who was in charge or in office.

You may very well be right. Depends on how aggressive Hillary would have been over this. And if she would have still had Obama's pandemic team working for her...I want to leave it at that to avoid giving an actual political opinion. But I would be curious to see how it would be different in theory if it was possible.

December 31st travel ban, eh?

Quote: billryan

December 31st travel ban, eh?

Lol. One month off ain't bad, right? That just the difference of thousands and thousands of deaths.

Quote: tringlomane

You may very well be right. Depends on how aggressive Hillary would have been over this. And if she would have still had Obama's pandemic team working for her...I want to leave it at that to avoid giving an actual political opinion. But I would be curious to see how it would be different in theory if it was possible.

We probably got the best response that we could have gotten. Had a certain someone else have been president the travel ban would have never happened. As it was our president was called xenophobic, racist and other names as smug elitists started apologizing to the rest of the world for our travel ban as while we attempted to limit the spread of the Chinese virus here. At the state and local levels our gov officials and hospital purchasing agents were grossly negligent, especially in NY.

Quote: Keyser

We probably got the best response that we could have gotten. Had a certain someone else have been president the travel ban would have never happened. As it was our president was called xenophobic, racist and other names as smug elitists started apologizing to the rest of the world for our travel ban as while we attempted to limit the spread of the Chinese virus here. At the state and local levels our gov officials and hospital purchasing agents were grossly negligent.

Yes, the travel ban to China on JANUARY 31st was one thing that I think was useful.

Quote: Keyser

That's absurd.

Hardly, but it's a political post so I won't detail the list of proposals and actions since 2016. Practically at the drop of a hat. Not really a challenge for him.

According to this study, Asian males are more susceptible the virus than any other group.

“East Asians, Japanese, and Han Chinese are the most likely people to become severely sick by the coronavirus with a chance of more than 90% when exposed. Europeans only rank in the 50%, Africans in the 60% range, and considered low to medium. It also makes a difference if one is a smoker or non-smoker.” - Article

The opposite may be true.

The combined populations of the non-communist Asian nations is 286 million. Combined deaths in those nations is currently 298.

US population is 327 million, with 8,454 Covid deaths. European mortality rates are currently much worse.

SK 183
Japan 77
Thailand 23
Singapore 6
Hong Kong 4
Taiwan 5

Quote: rxwine

Folk medicine, Is it starve a fever, feed a cold.

That is an admonition! If you starve a fever, you will be feeding a cold.

Quote: Tanko

According to this study, Asian males are more susceptible the virus than any other group.

Thus article only has a sample of ONE Asian man's lung tissue. There is a good chance they picked an "unlucky" person that would be more susceptible to this from the Asian group. The data among ethnicity in that study has to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Quote: tringlomane

Thus article only has a sample of ONE Asian man's lung tissue. ...The data among ethnicity in that study has to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Which is why the mortality rates per million population are the better indicator. So far, the mortality rates per million population in those Asian nations are significantly lower than anywhere else.

286 million population and currently 298 deaths.

Combined Italy, Spain, France, UK population 240 million and currently 39,653 deaths.

Been reading some crappy things about long term ventilation
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/after-icu-coronavirus-patients-ordeal-is-far-from-over/ar-BB12kACI?ocid=spartandhp

Hey SOOPOO. How bad would you have to get before you'd resort to possibly going on a ventilator for up to a couple weeks?

Quote: Tanko

Which is why the mortality rates per million population are the better indicator. So far, the mortality rates per million population in those Asian nations are significantly lower than anywhere else.

286 million population and currently 298 deaths.

Combined Italy, Spain, France, UK population 240 million and currently 39,653 deaths.

Different nations report the deaths in different ways. In some countries if you die from heart failure with the Chinese virus then you died from heart failure, not the virus. In the US if you die from heart disease and you had the virus when you passed, then you died from covid-19. That's kind of a poor example, but it's probably not too far off.

Also some nations don't record it as a virus death unless you've been tested for it. I think...in the US... they use a little more logic and if it appears to be the virus then they record your death has having been the result of the virus even if you weren't tested for it.

Quote: gordonm888

I've just gone through the list of essential activities in the Tennessee governor's Executive Order for the coronavirus Shutdown.

Essential activities include:
Any business or organization that involves 10 or fewer people within its premises
All construction activities and craft trades
All financial services, real estate services and insurance services. Payday loans and pawnbrokers are specifically named as being essential.
Any service related to producing or distributing media, including bookstores, television show production, etc. (probably includes adult bookstores)
Any retail outlet that sells supplies to work from home, which would include computer and electronics and office supplies
Any outlet that sells food, alcoholic beverages, video games, firearms
Any religious services
Any hardware store
Hotels and motels
Accounting services
Transportation services, including marinas and docks (we have a lot of lakes in Tennessee)
Laundry services including dry cleaners

That is not the exhaustive list (which includes all health care services, food and medicine supply and most government services, etc.).

This is why the virus is continuing to spread. So much is allowed to be open.

What is mandated to be closed under this Tennessee order? By elimination:
Schools ( that are not providing food or other essential services)
Museums, entertainment (movie theaters, laser tag, theme parks, music venues), tourist attractions
On-premises consumption in restaurants
Stores that sell garments/clothing
Furniture and home decoration stores

That's all I can think of. I've probably missed a few items

Essential : porn, video games

Nonessential : clothing, furniture

Funny

Bed bath & beyond is closed here.

Quote: Keyser

Different nations report the deaths in different ways.

Do you believe that accounts for the 39,653 to 298 disparity?

Their experience with the SARS epidemic and the Swine flu prepared the Asian nations to respond to the Corona virus faster and better than the rest of the world.

Singapore Was Ready

That is the main reason why their mortality rates are so low.

Quote: rxwine

Been reading some crappy things about long term ventilation
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/after-icu-coronavirus-patients-ordeal-is-far-from-over/ar-BB12kACI?ocid=spartandhp

Hey SOOPOO. How bad would you have to get before you'd resort to possibly going on a ventilator for up to a couple weeks?

This is a question I've been involved with my entire career. The problem is that no one can predict with any degree of certainty the course of your disease progression. At the time we decide to intubate someone, it is because, in general, we believe they will die imminently if not intubated. That the patients ability to take in oxygen (oxygenate) or get rid of CO2 (ventilate) is inadequate to sustain life.

Some of the doctors who are saying the cure (ventilator) may be worse than the disease are being way too simplistic.
The analogy I use is that some believe blood is dangerous. It is. 90% of patients who receive 10 or more units after being shot, die. Buttttt.... ALL of those would be dead if they didn't receive any blood. Blaming the blood is like blaming the ventilator.

There are some alternatives to intubation and a mechanical ventilator that can be used in certain circumstances (high flow nasal O2, BiPAP) The intensivists will use those if possible, I assure you. But when they are not enough, there are two choices.... death, or intubate.

When we intubate someone with a reversible condition, at least theoretically, like bacterial pneumonia, or collapsed lung, or now COVID ARDS, we hope that the condition improves so that the patient can breathe on their own. You asked about 'two weeks'. In this disease, it is possible you get better relatively quickly, and in a few days are extubated and on your way to a full recovery. And of course there are those that deteriorate quickly and die. And some others that don't get better but are still able to be kept alive but not bad enough to die.

The simple answer to your question is a combination of O2 level, CO2 level, trend of those, work of the patient to breathe, other pre-existing health issues.... There is no exact formula, but it sometimes can be subtle, but usually it is obvious to all.

You know what's funny, or not so funny, that just occurred to me.

We really don't need to wait for a vaccine, or even for extensive testing.

IF WE ALL JUST HAD ENOUGH N95 MASKS WE COULD KNOCK THIS THING PRACTICIALLY OUT IN 3 WEEKS.

A little training, or repetitive training, by public service announcements daily, on avoiding on making sure you don't contaminate yourself, and 90% of this would be gone. I'd bet all my money on it.

I say 90%, because I suspect some couldn't get things right, or perhaps have to work with an invalid family member.

I'm not even kidding.

Nice overview of potential treatments:
https://www.laboratoryequipment.com/563201-COVID-19-Treatment-Update-Remdesivir-Hydroxychloroquine-Leronlimab-Ivermectin-and-More/

Quote: rxwine

You know what's funny, or not so funny, that just occurred to me.

We really don't need to wait for a vaccine, or even for extensive testing.

IF WE ALL JUST HAD ENOUGH N95 MASKS WE COULD KNOCK THIS THING PRACTICIALLY OUT IN 3 WEEKS.

A little training, or repetitive training, by public service announcements daily, on avoiding on making sure you don't contaminate yourself, and 90% of this would be gone. I'd bet all my money on it.

I say 90%, because I suspect some couldn't get things right, or perhaps have to work with an invalid family member.

I'm not even kidding.

Sadly I think you would be way wrong. 20%+ in US think this is a lie, imo. Plus N95 masks are meant for one time use. Most people aren't that anal. And we would need billions of N95 masks to do it right.

3M should be making their masks off, but I'm not certain they are.

Quote: tringlomane

Sadly I think you would be way wrong. 20%+ in US think this is a lie, imo. Plus N95 masks are meant for one time use. Most people aren't that anal. And we would need billions of N95 masks to do it right.

3M should be making their masks off, but I'm not certain they are.

Normally masks are for one use when they are used to go from infected patient to non-infected as all gear is disposed of. But for wearing about, they should be fine. The filter is not going to be worn out.

Quote:

A key consideration for safe extended use is that the respirator must maintain its fit and function. Workers in other industries routinely use N95 respirators for several hours uninterrupted. Experience in these settings indicates that respirators can function within their design specifications for 8 hours of continuous or intermittent use.

If you're not out exposed for 8 hours straight, given, no better option, I'd wear it again until expended.

Now dermatologists are reporting another symptom. "Covid toes". Not everyone gets it, but some toes get purple spots and may be painful or itchy.

I have worn N-95 masks at work in the past. They were usually used when working on tuberculosis patients. Before being issued them, I was 'fit tested' once a year, to make sure I had the exact size needed to work as intended. I absolutely hated wearing them. It was very difficult to breathe while wearing one properly. I am sure many breathe around the edges, basically ruining the efficacy.

Quote: SOOPOO

I have worn N-95 masks at work in the past. They were usually used when working on tuberculosis patients. Before being issued them, I was 'fit tested' once a year, to make sure I had the exact size needed to work as intended. I absolutely hated wearing them. It was very difficult to breathe while wearing one properly. I am sure many breathe around the edges, basically ruining the efficacy.

I guess that would discourage excessive socializing.

SOOPOO,

What about adding a salted filter to your mask? It should capture mositure, dry it out and disrupt the virus significantly. Added efficiency for homemade masks and worn n95s perhaps?

When I say a salt filter I literally mean soaking a filter/fabric in a strong salt solution and then drying it out completely before using it inside.

Hate to state the following, however, Until there is an approved vaccine for COVID-19, our lives will not be the same and our lives will continue to be in danger. We will gain a false sense of security over the summer. Then the virus will most likely spread again like wild fire in the fall. Sure there will be therapeutics that will help sick people in 6-12 months, however the vaccine will not be for 12-18 months.

This is not like any other virus we have seen. It is HIGHLY contagious and spreads very easily. I work with the top Infectious Diseases clinicians in the world. Each has told me that this virus is a BEAST! Continue to practice social distancing and don't assume this enemy will disappear in the summer. You best defense is practicing social distance and build up your immune system by eating healthy, supplements, exercising, sex, and good rest.

Yes and no.

It's not necessarily with us in it's currently deadly form forever. Even the Spanish Flu weakened and faded away/mutated after a year and a half or so. (Sorry if this virus name offends some LOL.)

Quote:

Broadway star Nick Cordero will have his right leg amputated as a result of coronavirus-related complications, his wife Amanda Kloots announced on her Instagram Story Saturday.

I don't know if anyone will know the answer but I'll ask it anyway.

What's the smallest amount of plasma infusion of someone else's antibodies does it take to be effective? In lieu of a vaccine, how effective might that be? Or is it only used when you're actively sick?

If a relatively small infusion just took a while to be effective, that would still be great, but maybe I'm misunderstanding how it is used. But I was thinking similar to a flu vaccine, you need about 2 weeks for the immunity to kick in. If you get the flu before then, it's less likely to be effective.

Quote: rxwine

I don't know if anyone will know the answer but I'll ask it anyway.

What's the smallest amount of plasma infusion of someone else's antibodies does it take to be effective? In lieu of a vaccine, how effective might that be? Or is it only used when you're actively sick?

If a relatively small infusion just took a while to be effective, that would still be great, but maybe I'm misunderstanding how it is used. But I was thinking similar to a flu vaccine, you need about 2 weeks for the immunity to kick in. If you get the flu before then, it's less likely to be effective.

I don't think it's consistent. If someone just recovered, they will have more antibodies in the blood than compared to someone who recovered longer than them. Using it like a vaccine, I don't know about that from my travels on the outernet.

I might be misconstruing how it works. Maybe it just provides antibodies that stay in your system like a temporary weapon, but the body does nothing to produce more of them.

Plasma infusion was the best treatment the medical industry had for treating many illnesses before the invention of penicillin and other antibiotics. At its core, its an old technology.

Not sure how much plasma and antibodies are needed.

Quote: rxwine

I might be misconstruing how it works. Maybe it just provides antibodies that stay in your system like a temporary weapon, but the body does nothing to produce more of them.

Yes, they fluctuate depending on the virus. I'm not medical, just remember what I read recently. The immune system is complex.