The Cure? Is it Over?
FDA has just approved this for treatment of covid-19 after their arm was twisted by the President.
(Yesterday) Detroit man was dying of Covid-19, they treated him with hydroxychloroquine +Azithromycine (an antibiotic?) and he walked out of the hospital in hours.
Source
The FDA has been referring to the French data on the drug's effectiveness as a treatment for covid-19 as "an anecdote" - because only the FDA can perform trials and approve drugs - but it was indeed a trial with a control group in France. 79 out of 80 patients treated with the drug showed rapid improvement. 79 out of frigging 80.
Look at covid-19 data in France and China, both of which seem to be using this drug.
Can it be? This pandemic -as we currently know it - may actually be over soon. God, I hope so.
Amen to that!Quote: gordonm888Can it be? This pandemic -as we currently know it - may actually be over soon. God, I hope so.
Thanks for this, Gordon! We could use some good news right about now.
Orange man good?Quote: gordonm888
FDA has just approved this for treatment of covid-19 after their arm was twisted by the President.
A/k/a Hydroxychloroquine plus a Z-Pack.Quote: gordonm888Hydroxychloroquine plus Azithromycine
I thought that this was the de-facto "standard" treatment, with zinc, vitammin C and restorative fluids as supplemental measures.
Don't come around here tossing around skepticism & logic 😉Quote: sabreThere's zero chance a medication thought to inhibit viral replication takes someone from gasping for breath to healed in 3 hours.
Quote: AxelWolfOrange man good?
I am not naming or commenting on any individual politician. I am just saying that, over the years, the bureaucracy at the FDA has built an empire of tens of thousands of bureaucrats based on lengthy and expensive trials and their exclusive right to approve drugs. Then the covid-19 virus arrives and the nation turns into a M.A.S.H. unit with a million "incoming" patients - and the FDA is trying to empire-build by clinging to their "no urgency" business-as-usual style.
Ex: A company that has developed a covid-19 vaccine announced yesterday that the clinical trial on their new vaccine is now scheduled to begin in September. Really? Start in September??!!!? That doesn't help much if I'm dead by July.
Quote: billryanIsn't it approved for testing? That's a long way from saying it's been approved for treatment. Some 1200 people have been on the protocol for a few days and NY isn't reporting any miracle cures. What they are reporting is a shortage of the drug for people who need it to keep their lupus in check.
"Updated: 3/30/20 at 10:15 p.m.
Topline: The Food and Drug Administration on Sunday issued an emergency authorization for experimental coronavirus treatments using chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, anti-malaria drugs touted by President Donald Trump despite inconclusive clinical proof of their effectiveness.
The Department of Health and Human Services said Sunday hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine products can “be distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with Covid-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible.”
Source
Quote: heatmapDon’t know if what I heard was true but the governor of Nevada has banned the treatment along with Minnesota I think
I heard the governor of Nevada is a werewolf, don't know if what I heard was true.
NV order:
http://gov.nv.gov/News/Emergency_Orders/2020/2020-03-23_-_COVID-19_Emergency_Regulation_Board_of_Pharmacy/
FDA EUA:
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/mcm-legal-regulatory-and-policy-framework/emergency-use-authorization#covidtherapeutics
I would guess the topic will be revisited if the treatment proves effective.
Quote: sabreMany hospitals around the country have been treating with hydroxychloroquine for weeks. If this was a panacea I'd think you'd have the doctors at U Washington and Boston medical screaming from the mountaintops for everyone to take it. It may improve outcomes, and it may even be useful as a prophylactic. More data is needed. But I'll say this, the nutjob claiming he went from gasping for breath to completely healed 3 hours after taking it has ulterior motives. There's zero chance a medication thought to inhibit viral replication takes someone from gasping for breath to healed in 3 hours.
Thank you for this post. That patient probably also rolled 18 yo's in a row.
Also remember, many, make that most, will get better with NO treatment. Without a real study some guy saying he was cured by drug X is not worth much.
Quote: heatmaphttps://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/03/24/nevada-governor-bans-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus-patients/amp/
So you read the article and now see that your statement is false I assume?
Quote: gordonm888Hydroxychloroquine plus Azithromycine
FDA has just approved this for treatment of covid-19 after their arm was twisted by the President.
.....
Can it be? This pandemic -as we currently know it - may actually be over soon. God, I hope so.
Put the lime in the coconut and drink 'em both together
Put the lime in the coconut, and you'll feel better
Put the lime in the coconut, drink 'em bot' up
Put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning
Suited89
Quote: Suited89So as this spins out of control, let me say that the China/French studies of hydroxychloroquine involved doses higher than practice. The usage needs to be monitored as the recommended COVID-19 dose is based on weight/height and usually 50% more than clinical dosage. THERE ARE SIDE-EFFECTS AT THIS DOSAGE.
Suited89
What kinds of side effects? I remember reading someone died from an improper dosage.
Quote: MintyWhat kinds of side effects? I remember reading someone died from an improper dosage.
Heart attacks, blindness, pseudo heart attack like conditions, retina issues and a few more. Very easy to overdose on, according to some reports.
There were a few in Nigeria. I'm still waiting to get my share of the inheritance, they couldn't even get it without me. ;)Quote: MintyWhat kinds of side effects? I remember reading someone died from an improper dosage.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/10/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-ready-by-april-chinese-officials-say/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
Quote: jjjooogggChina may have a vaccine ready by April.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/10/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-ready-by-april-chinese-officials-say/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
Probably stolen IP my first guess. It is a tough one either way, our bodies aren't good at defending against corona viruses. Immunity is a complicated thing how it really works if I remember right. The vaccine will be about as good as everything else made in China. They must not have a word for dependable in the Chinese language. I'm coming across as racist, but I'm not being racist, they have a problem.
Quote: SabreMany hospitals around the country have been treating with hydroxychloroquine for weeks. If this was a panacea I'd think you'd have the doctors at U Washington and Boston medical screaming from the mountaintops for everyone to take it. It may improve outcomes, and it may even be useful as a prophylactic. More data is needed. But I'll say this, the nutjob claiming he went from gasping for breath to completely healed 3 hours after taking it has ulterior motives. There's zero chance a medication thought to inhibit viral replication takes someone from gasping for breath to healed in 3 hours.
Actually several have been saying that it works. Over the last week I've seen doctor after doctor after doctor and patients being interviewed on the news talking about how it's saving lives. I've also seen an interview with a Dr. in NY that said he wasn't worried about contracting the virus because he felt that he would have caught it by now. It turns out the he and his staff have been taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventative. The drug has been around for a long time and it's side effects are very well know.
This is going to sound weird, but it's not really the virus that's killing people. It's the hyperactive out of control immune response (cytokine strom) that's killing people. And it appears that there's a great new drug to stop the storm. Leronlimab is the drug.
https://techstartups.com/2020/03/31/breaking-leronlimab-antibody-drug-developed-by-a-canadian-company-could-be-the-game-changer-and-answer-to-coronavirus-covid-19-treatment-may-be-more-effective-than-hydroxychloroquine/
What if the top officials around the world are holding back on one of the reasons that they're panicked?
What if the real problem is Immunity enhancement ( an overactive immune system response) due to a poorly engineered vaccine from the distant the past? The cytokine storm?
Could it be that people above age "X" received a standard vaccine (as a child) that now causes their immune systems to sometimes over react when they encounter the Wuhan Covid 19 virus? Could the affect cause their lungs to quickly fill with fluid as their immune systems go hay wire? Could this be one of the many reasons that the people above age 60 are at a much higher risk? Could we see the demographics of the world change simply because of a poorly engineered vaccine in the distant past?
(Above looking at the small pox vaccination scar)
They stopped the vaccinations for small pox after 1972. It's highly unlikely that such a vaccine of the past could now cause a hyper immune response, but is it theoretically possible? And for the record, I'd rather die from the Wuhan Covid 19 than Small Pox!
"Critically important studies emerging from China suggest that for many patients who die of Covid-19, it may be their own immune system, rather than the virus itself, that deals the fatal blow. This is called a cytokine storm
"During a cytokine storm, an excessive immune response ravages healthy lung tissue, leading to acute respiratory distress and multi-organ failure. Untreated, cytokine storm syndrome is usually fatal. Patients in other studies who developed cytokine storm syndrome after viral triggers often ironically possessed subtle genetic immune defects resulting in the uncontrolled immune response."
"https://www.vox.com/2020/3/12/21176783/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-china-treatment-cytokine-storm-syndrome
Quote: KeyserI've also seen an interview with a Dr. in NY that said he wasn't worried about contracting the virus because he felt that he would have caught it by now. It turns out the he and his staff have been taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventative. The drug has been around for a long time and it's side effects are very well know.
Do they all work without protective gear?
Quote: onenickelmiracleProbably stolen IP my first guess. It is a tough one either way, our bodies aren't good at defending against corona viruses. Immunity is a complicated thing how it really works if I remember right. The vaccine will be about as good as everything else made in China. They must not have a word for dependable in the Chinese language. I'm coming across as racist, but I'm not being racist, they have a problem.
They do have some high quality manufacturing to be fair, but the price for those items/brands is often as high as in EU and they are usually made for domestic high tier clients, as a whole the need and urge to be the most competitive price-wise across the globe dictates the lower quality prevalence in their export industry. Don't know anything about China's medical achievements and quality control and how will an eventual vaccine fare and pass international safety and effectiveness requirements.
If the masks are protecting the patients from the healthcare workers then I understand, but that's not what they're saying.
Aside from the touching your face thing, do the masks help you from getting it or not?
I think in fact they do help more than they're claiming.
I understand that they work well at keeping in the germs in from an infectious person, but are of limited value keeping infection out, unless expertly fitted and worn. Time after time, we see members of the public shuffling with their masks, taking them off to speak etc. All those hand to mask contacts just invite contamination via the hands. Thus devaluing the mask.Quote: AxelWolfI keep hearing healthcare workers need masks to protect THEMSELVES. But, then they keep on telling us the masks don't work.
If the masks are protecting the patients from the healthcare workers then I understand, but that's not what they're saying.
Aside from the touching your face thing, do the masks help you from getting it or not?
I think in fact they do help more than they're claiming.
Also, masks are only supposed to be worn for short duration and should be removed in a prescribed order, along with gloves or hand-washing.
Any obstacle we can put in the way of infection, in any direction, contributes in a probabilistic way to reducing R and slowing the contagion. The reason for originally advising against wearing them, was about keeping them available where they were most needed.
Quote: AxelWolfI keep hearing healthcare workers need masks to protect THEMSELVES. But, then they keep on telling us the masks don't work.
If the masks are protecting the patients from the healthcare workers then I understand, but that's not what they're saying.
Aside from the touching your face thing, do the masks help you from getting it or not?
I think in fact they do help more than they're claiming.
Basic surgical masks work at least as much as to prevent the majority of droplets from your mouth when you cough or speak to directly contaminate others faces, the air in your immediate proximity or surfaces that others can touch later. If everyone wears a mask protecting each other it will inevitably add to slowing down the pace of contagion spread globally. So it's a responsible thing to do towards the others. You protect them, they protect you by wearing their mask. It also adds to awareness to discourage you from touching your face as often. The point being we should all act like if we already have it but maybe are unaware yet, which may well be the case, and for the purpose of protecting the rest (at least to some degree) it can be anything, a piece of cloth strapped over your nose and mouth will do as well.
Quote: gordonm888Hydroxychloroquine plus Azithromycine
FDA has just approved this for treatment of covid-19 after their arm was twisted by the President.
Both those drugs were approved by the FDA decades ago. H during World War II and A in the 1980s. Once a drug has been approved for any use, it can prescribed for anything else. Marijuana is only approved for epilepsy, chemotherapy, and AIDS. But before it was legalized for recreation, doctors were prescribing it to anyone who had ever had any anxiety, back pain, or insomnia (which is like everyone in the world), so long as they made their co-pay.
Don't see how this really changes anything, as these meds were being used to treat coronavirus before the FDA and the president did this.
The other issue is if it is working this quickly, it's likely it would only be treating the symptoms. Going from not breathing to breathing is awesome, but that is only getting the lungs to work again, not killing the virus. Let's hope people aren't taking these drugs at home and then going out as soon as they feel ok.
Quote: AxelWolfI keep hearing healthcare workers need masks to protect THEMSELVES. But, then they keep on telling us the masks don't work.
If the masks are protecting the patients from the healthcare workers then I understand, but that's not what they're saying.
Aside from the touching your face thing, do the masks help you from getting it or not?
I think in fact they do help more than they're claiming.
An N95 mask absolutely does protect the wearer. A well-fitted surgical mask should as well well. Some of those homemade masks or an improperly fitted mask could actually make it more likely you catch the virus: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html
What any mask is good for is stopping you from spreading it. Maybe that's one reason China was able to get it under control: in a lot of countries it's normal for people to wear a mask if they feel any sort of illness or even if a family member has been ill. If 100% of people were wearing them, we could open things back up. But we all know that would not happen here. This is a country where some parents wouldn't even give their kids a vaccine if there was a polio outbreak.
Quote: TomGBoth those drugs were approved by the FDA decades ago. H during World War II and A in the 1980s. Once a drug has been approved for any use, it can prescribed for anything else. Marijuana is only approved for epilepsy, chemotherapy, and AIDS. But before it was legalized for recreation, doctors were prescribing it to anyone who had ever had any anxiety, back pain, or insomnia (which is like everyone in the world), so long as they made their co-pay.
Don't see how this really changes anything, as these meds were being used to treat coronavirus before the FDA and the president did this.
The other issue is if it is working this quickly, it's likely it would only be treating the symptoms. Going from not breathing to breathing is awesome, but that is only getting the lungs to work again, not killing the virus. Let's hope people aren't taking these drugs at home and then going out as soon as they feel ok.
If the drugs are used to treat coronavirus (or any disease) without FDA approval then the doctors or hospital are legally liable and can be sued in the event there are side-effects and/or a bad outcome. That is sufficient to discourage almost any doctor or hospital from using an unapproved drug.
These drugs were formerly approved for Trials -i.e., only if your hospital had signed up to be part of the Trial and was maintaining a "control group' - i.e., a population of patients that were not allowed to get the drug even if they died.
So, the fact that these drugs are now approved for use on hospitalized Covid-19 patients, even without a trial, is a big deal.
Quote: gordonm888
These drugs were formerly approved for Trials -i.e., only if your hospital had signed up to be part of the Trial and was maintaining a "control group' - i.e., a population of patients that were not allowed to get the drug even if they died.
I mean, that's just not even close to true. UW Seattle has been treating with hydroxychloroquine since early March. No trials, they're just using it for a majority of hospitalized patients. https://covid-19.uwmedicine.org/Pages/default.aspx
And I don't care that the doc says updated 3/28, the treatment protocols were in place for earlier revisions.
Hospitals all over the country have been using hydroxychloroquine inpatient to treat COVID19 long before the president ever heard of the word. Remdesivir is the drug that needs to be used in trials or for compassionate use.
And LOL that hospitals can't prescribe off label use for an FDA approved drug for fear of lawsuits.
Quote: gordonm888If the drugs are used to treat coronavirus (or any disease) without FDA approval then the doctors or hospital are legally liable and can be sued in the event there are side-effects and/or a bad outcome. That is sufficient to discourage almost any doctor or hospital from using an unapproved drug.
Over 20% of all prescriptions are for off-label use, so doctors really aren't all that discouraged (that's got to be billions of prescriptions written over the years) and risk of losing a lawsuit can be sufficiently reduced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538391/. That seems especially true for these drugs as they have already been regulated and researched.
Although now that I think about, the conspiracy theorist would say it's only being approved to remove protections from patients.
Quote: gordonm888If the drugs are used to treat coronavirus (or any disease) without FDA approval then the doctors or hospital are legally liable and can be sued in the event there are side-effects and/or a bad outcome. That is sufficient to discourage almost any doctor or hospital from using an unapproved drug.
Nothing can be farther from the truth. I think down thread someone mentioned 20% of all drugs are used 'off label'. I'll buy that.
There once what we call 'drug dinners', where a manufacturer of a new drug would invite us to the fancy steakhouse for dinner and a presentation. After the presentation a question might go this way....
Wow, that sounds like a great drug. Is it approved for pregnant women? The answer.... It is not. We were unable to do proper studies (asking a mother to try a new drug to see if it does harm to her baby.... you try asking!). However, it has been used successfully in Europe for the last two years, with only 3 bad outcomes out of 1,000,000 doses.
It quickly became the safe and most used drug for the indication in pregnant women. But never approved by FDA for them.
I can see people wearing the mask all day. And touching their mask contaminating their hands.
Quote: sabreI mean, that's just not even close to true. UW Seattle has been treating with hydroxychloroquine since early March. No trials, they're just using it for a majority of hospitalized patients. https://covid-19.uwmedicine.org/Pages/default.aspx
And I don't care that the doc says updated 3/28, the treatment protocols were in place for earlier revisions.
Hospitals all over the country have been using hydroxychloroquine inpatient to treat COVID19 long before the president ever heard of the word. Remdesivir is the drug that needs to be used in trials or for compassionate use.
And LOL that hospitals can't prescribe off label use for an FDA approved drug for fear of lawsuits.
Well given what you and other posters say, which I am willing to accept as true, then the FDA's approval of hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is relatively irrelevant. I have been listening to FDA doctors on television, which has been my basis, but maybe everything they say is B.S.
And, I thought that Remdesivir is already in a trial in the U.S. and several other trials internationally and was approved for compassionate use on coronavirus in the U.S. (on March 20)?
Chloroquin now can be prescribed easily for COVID patients.
A second drug, an 'interleukin blocker' is being trialed as well. Its a monoclonal antibody that you see advertised on TV for arthritis I think.
Only 24 ventilators are being used now for patients. Probably only a few above average. 36 more available. 22 more 'on order', whatever that means.
I was officially called and asked to be available per diem. They are nowhere near needing me at present. As a reminder, OR volume is way down so there is at least a temporary surplus of anesthesiologists. I told them I will not categorically say no, but as a high risk individual (age, diabetes), I should be an absolutely last resort.
My hospital has credentialed the hospitalists (mostly internists) to run additional ICUs if needed. Some NYC hospitals are using anesthesiologists to run their additional ICUs.
Both my sister and her husband are positive. Sister totally recovered except still no sense of taste. Brother in law still running low grade fever that responds to tylenol. All 3 of their sons untested but now it is clear they all had it a week or two ago.
Are many of the doctors and nurses taking the hydroxychloroquine as a preventative?
“Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin is a dangerous combination! Both drugs have a severe interaction that can cause cardiac arrest via QT interval prolongation. Anyone who is on it must be monitored around the clock. Today the FDA approved hydroxychloroquine for emergency use only. The governor has issued a standing order where a patient needs to test COVID19 positive to be on this treatment (due to reckless over-prescribing of that drug last week). There have been cases world-wide where people have taken hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine prophylactically and died. There’s more behind these drugs that I can explain in greater length. Don’t think they’re accessible or safe, because they are neither right now.”
Quote: KeyserSOOPOO,
Are many of the doctors and nurses taking the hydroxychloroquine as a preventative?
I know of no doctor taking it prophylactically. I do have one friend who stocked up just in case. To repeat what I’ve written before, my infectious disease friend from Las Vegas is using the Gilead sciences drug. Very bright internist that I’m friends with here in Buffalo said he would never give Cloraquin without more data or evidence, unless it was a truly last ditch effort. He said he has seen the cardiac side effect throughout his career. I’ve also just posted that my hospital is now allowing doctors to prescribe Cloraquin to treat Covid.
Is it remotely possible that an older past vaccination from the 1960s or before, is causing the immune systems in older patients to over react and go haywire when they encounter the Covid-19? (Cytokine storm.)
