Women
I love that commercial where this little meek guy is thinking out loud about the girl in the car next to him and glances over at his huge battleaxe wife and you can barely hear him say 'Uh Oh'. Makes me laugh out loud.
We both say no, it's a push, like pai Gow.
-B
Quote: toastcmuI think the key is compromise here - we still discuss big decisions
-B
We agreed years ago that she'll make all the small decisions and I'll make all the big decisions. Funny thing... we haven't had any big decisions yet...
The "old" version of this (from 40 or 50 years ago) was "She makes the small decisions like what car to buy and where we should live; I make the big decisions like who should be admitted to the U.N."Quote: TheNightflyWe agreed years ago that she'll make all the small decisions and I'll make all the big decisions. Funny thing... we haven't had any big decisions yet...
Nothing to think about. The answer is remarkably simple:Quote: EvenBobWhen you're married, why do women get to make all the rules? Ever think about this?
Sex.
Quote: TheNightflyand I'll make all the big decisions. Funny thing.
Thats like me telling my son when he was young that he could drive on a long trip if I ever got tired. We all know how many times that happened..
Complaints that "women get to run things" usually stem from a persistent reluctance on the part of the husband to show any consideration for his spouse, which in turn, leads to a lack of communication, and a lack of empathy. And usually, those complaints involve the domestic sphere, as when the husband feels aggreived because his wife doesn't want to clean up after a slob. I GUARANTEE that such a man would go ballistic if his wife committed some mortal transgression such as filling up the car with the wrong brand of gasoline.
Quote: mkl654321Complaints that "women get to run things" usually stem from a persistent reluctance on the part of the husband to show any consideration for his spouse,
LOL! This from someone who admits to never being married. I probably know 15 married couples well, and in all of them, the women have more power than the men. Why? They defeat you eventually and you give in just to have quiet. Charleston Heston was married over 50 years and he always said the secret to is to admit you're wrong many times a day, whether you are or aren't, to keep the peace.
Here's a perfect example and why I started the thread. My wife informed me today we're going to our youngest daughters for T-Giving. Our daughter can't cook. We went there 2 years ago and she poisoned me with an undercooked frozen turkey, I'm serious. Was I consulted about going there this year? Why would I be, no matter what I say, we would end up going. My wife would no more hurt one the childrens feelings than she would jump off a bridge. So instead of a restaurant, I get spend T-Giving at my daughters eating cold green beans, burned biscuits, lumpy gravy and another poison turkey. Oh boy.
So if the daughter is lacking in culinary skills give her a gift of a fully prepared Thanksgiving Dinner delivered by a catering company. Something she can't screw up at all. The purpose of the visit may not be related to thanksgiving at all. Who knows. Just make sure your wife approves of the idea first! LOL.Quote: EvenBobSo instead of a restaurant, I get spend T-Giving at my daughters eating cold green beans, burned biscuits, lumpy gravy and another poison turkey. Oh boy.
Quote: FleaStiffSo if the daughter is lacking in culinary skills give her a gift of a fully prepared Thanksgiving Dinner .
You don't get it. This is so she can improve her cooking skills, using us a test subjects. Yum.
Quote: mkl654321In just about all successful marriages I've observed--and "successful", in this context, means simply that the couple are still together--neither spouse imposes rules on the other. They might divide up the legislative field by expertise---hubby makes the car, home repair, and money decisions, wife makes the food, health care, kid-maintenance decisions, to use the 1950s model--but any major decisions are made by consensus.
Complaints that "women get to run things" usually stem from a persistent reluctance on the part of the husband to show any consideration for his spouse, which in turn, leads to a lack of communication, and a lack of empathy. And usually, those complaints involve the domestic sphere, as when the husband feels aggreived because his wife doesn't want to clean up after a slob. I GUARANTEE that such a man would go ballistic if his wife committed some mortal transgression such as filling up the car with the wrong brand of gasoline.
Please, do tell us about your marriage. We need to know where all this insight comes from!
Quote: JerryLoganPlease, do tell us about your marriage. We need to know where all this insight comes from!
Sorry, by his own admission MKL has never been married. But he's read all about it in his 190 IQ Will Hunting way, and knows exactly the way its supposed to go.
Quote: EvenBobSorry, by his own admission MKL has never been married. But he's read all about it in his 190 IQ Will Hunting way, and knows exactly the way its supposed to go.
Actually, my insight comes from having dozens of married friends. Being married, or having been married, doesn't necesarily give you any insight into marriage, as you so amply demonstrate.
Quote: mkl654321Actually, my insight comes from having dozens of married friends. Being married, or having been married, doesn't necesarily give you any insight into marriage, as you so amply demonstrate.
<<my insight comes from having dozens of married friends>>
All happily married, of course. Its just like mountain climbing or scuba diving, having friends who do it when you haven't makes you an expert and your opinion is just as valid as theirs. In a pigs eye..
Quote: EvenBob<<my insight comes from having dozens of married friends>>
All happily married, of course. Its just like mountain climbing or scuba diving, having friends who do it when you haven't makes you an expert and your opinion is just as valid as theirs. In a pigs eye..
There are experts on football who do not, and never did, play the game. There are experts on military tactics who have never fought in a battle. There are experts on infant psychology who are not infants, and don't remember anything about when they were. There are experts on communicable diseases who have never had those diseases. There are expert undertakers who have never been dead.
Do you catch my drift? Expertise can be gained by experience, but experience is not the ONLY way to gain expertise. In the case of human behavior, it may actually help to be an outside observer, because it may enable you to be more objective. Clearly, you are not exactly objective about your OWN marriage.
Quote: mkl654321Expertise can be gained by experience, but experience is not the ONLY way to gain expertise.
This is one of the most hilarious conversations I've ever had. If MKL ever gets married, he'll tell his bride 'No worries, dear, I'm a marriage expert, we have it made.' She'll sigh and bat her eyes, saying 'My hero!'. Married men everywhere are laying on the floor laughing their asses off..
Quote: EvenBobThis is one of the most hilarious conversations I've ever had. If MKL ever gets married, he'll tell his bride 'No worries, dear, I'm a marriage expert, we have it made.' She'll sigh and bat her eyes, saying 'My hero!'. Married men everywhere are laying on the floor laughing their asses off..
The strength or weakness, or validity, or my argument has nothing to do with my own personal experiences, hypothetical or otherwise. You are degenerating into ad hominem attacks, and if you don't know what those are, you should look it up.
In any case, fine, if you want to think so, your wife abuses you horribly, and you are utterly blameless. We're done here.
Quote: mkl654321my argument has nothing to do with my own personal experiences,.
Of course not, everyone knows experience is overrated. You can learn to drive a car or a forklift just by reading a book about it and observing others doing it. Same with marriage; apply here, no experience necessary. LOL!
In my opinion, the "most successful" marriages are generally those that are successful without participants having been married previously. Get it right the first time. With no prior experience.Quote: EvenBobOf course not, everyone knows experience is overrated. You can learn to drive a car or a forklift just by reading a book about it and observing others doing it. Same with marriage; apply here, no experience necessary. LOL!
Quote: DocIn my opinion, the "most successful" marriages are generally those that are successful without participants having been married previously. Get it right the first time. With no prior experience.
Sometimes. There are many successful second marriages where the participants actually learned something from the first marriage. I know many first marriages, though, where they've been together for decades and can barely stand each other now. Divorce seems less and less an option these days for financial reasons, people just can't afford to split up their assets. They'd rather stay together and be miserable than face the alternative.
Of course that's simulated experience, but if you can find a good simulated wife I suppose you can gain almost real experience.
(now I'm amusing myself with simulated wife game "Could you close the kitchen cabinets for once!" says simulated wife)
Quote: rxwineOf course that's simulated experience, but if you can find a good simulated wife
Simulated wife, isn't that called a blow-up doll? Is MKL's birthday coming up soon?
Quote: EvenBobWhen you're married, why do women get to make all the rules? Ever think about this? Ever try and make a rule and get them to follow it? It doesn't work. Not only that, the rules change all the time.
I love that commercial where this little meek guy is thinking out loud about the girl in the car next to him and glances over at his huge battleaxe wife and you can barely hear him say 'Uh Oh'. Makes me laugh out loud.
In my household, my wife doesn't make all of the rules. We pretty much split out the rules 50 / 50. The difference I believe between men and women is our ability to be more forgiving when rules are broken and to enforce the rules, whatever it may be.
I think what makes a marriage successful is alot of reassurance, trust, and not sweating the small stuff. The small stuff would include things like who does the chores, who makes more money, and where you go on major holidays. In my opinion (OMG MKL I am being misogynistic) women tend to make a bigger deal of out little things then we do and hence men (in general) feel that women get to make more rules and tend to run the roost more than us men do. And frankly, as long as I get laid once in a while, I get to eat, watch what I want on TV, and get the occasional trip to casino land, I'm happy to make that deal. I'm in my marriage for the long haul, through sickness and health, for richer and for poorer, to death do we part.
The big stuff would include who you're sleeping or flirting with, what drug/narcotic/habit has overtaken your life, and what money you spend.
As for your particular issue (Thanksgiving), I would classify that as "the small stuff". I would make lemonade out of lemons, find the silver lining in the cloud, and use it as a bonding opportunity between the one who poisons you and yourself. Bring a cookbook and a meat thermometer (the kind that beeps when it reaches temperature, about $10). Stick the meat thermometer in the wing of the turkey and don't let that bird comes out of the oven until it says 185. Since the bird should cool for about 20 minutes after it comes out of the oven, she can do the last minute preparations after the bird's out. The oven is great for reheating things that cook too early, so the timing shouldn't be the issue, as long as she prepares earlier enough.
There will be other Thanksgivings.
Of course, there are blind spots where I don't see something that's there, and there are hotspots where I see something that's not there ... as there is with anybody else. That's where the decision comes in. Will I talk about it? Will she be willing to talk about it? And THAT'S where, I think, compatibility and maturity enters into things. Hopefully, it would never enter the point where things couldn't be talked about.
One guy put it something like this: "peace" does not = "absence of conflict." There are a zillion homes out there that don't have outward conflict but you would never call them "peaceful." And, peace-faking is just as destructive as peace-breaking. Peace-making sometimes involves conflict, so conflict shouldn't necessarily be avoided at all costs.
All of this is pie-in-the-sky and all our human garbage comes out in this process. That's where trust, maturity, and compatibility enter into things. So, if there's a real problem behind the whole Thanksgiving thing, then maybe a peace-making conflict is in order. If there's not, then drop it and go, and don't mention it again. If you peace-fake, then that's on you.
My $0.02.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerso conflict shouldn't necessarily be avoided at all costs..
Sure it should, who likes conflict. Why do you think so many men have hobbies that keep them in the basement or garage most of the time? To avoid conflict. Most women are your mother in disguise, remember how you avoided conflict with HER at all costs?
Quote: mkl654321Actually, my insight comes from having dozens of married friends. Being married, or having been married, doesn't necesarily give you any insight into marriage, as you so amply demonstrate.
Hmmm....Now what were the odds that no woman has married this guy?? And that he'd say he knows "all about being married" as well as "being married or having been married doesn't necessarily give you any insight into marriage?!!
This is GREAT STUFF! (and I thought our driver who pooped his pants in his cab was the hit-of-the-day today!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that I think about this some more, I've actually got TEARS in my eyes from laughing so much!
Quote: DocIn my opinion, the "most successful" marriages are generally those that are successful without participants having been married previously. Get it right the first time. With no prior experience.
Good opinion. My wife & I are both first-timers now with 20 years worth of experience. And that's exactly what it takes in order to have "insight" enough to claim to be able to explain it to others. Of course, unless you are a know-it-all essay writer....hypothetically, of course.
Quote: EvenBobSure it should, who likes conflict. Why do you think so many men have hobbies that keep them in the basement or garage most of the time? To avoid conflict. Most women are your mother in disguise, remember how you avoided conflict with HER at all costs?
I don't think anybody *likes* conflict, except maybe those that use it or the threat of it to manipulate others, but that's not what we're talking about here.
I guess you (not YOU you, generic you) just have to decide what's for the long-term best ... a conflict* now or years stuffed away in a basement. You should be happy, too. And honestly, I don't think women ultimately appreciate it when their guy is cow-able. In fact, I'm sure it's embarrassing to them in the long run. Not to say be a jerk or use physical force or the threat of it. But standing up for yourself can be done without intimidation.
*I don't necessarily mean "screaming match" when I say "conflict." I mean, sitting down and really talking about what's bothering you and why. That can easily degenerate into screaming if a) one or both folks aren't mature enough to handle it, b) one or both folks don't trust the other, and/or c) one of you is fiercely protecting an old wound or lie or something. In my experience, it's usually b) with a heavy does of c).
My $0.02.
Quote: boymimboIn my opinion (OMG MKL I am being misogynistic) women tend to make a bigger deal of out little things then we do and hence men (in general) feel that women get to make more rules and tend to run the roost more than us men do.
This is another coin that has two sides. You call them "the little things"--whatever those things are--and thus, you will automatically feel that whatever attention women pay to those things is excessive, especially if they don't agree with you that those things are "little". In other words, it's code for "I consider this a 'little thing' because it's not important to ME." But that little thing may either be 1) actually more important than you think it is, or 2) important to your SPOUSE. It's usually something like cleaning up after yourself, or food handling, or not leaving the newspaper strewn all over the couch after you've finished reading it. It could also be something that is intrinsically important, and is not merely a manifestation of your spouse's idiosyncracies, such as turning the lights out when you leave a room. And I would submit that in ANY functioning marriage, if something is important to your spouse, that ipso facto makes it important to you. You're supposed to be on the same side, after all.
Since women (whether they like it or not) have been assigned the domestic role in life throughout most of human history, it stands to reason that women would have more "rules" than men, because keeping up a home and raising a family is such an enormous and complicated task. Because most of what women do in this regard is "invisible", men tend to discount it. A lot of those "little things" that women "make a big deal of" are related to tasks that not only do men never perform, they aren't even aware of their existence. Men tend to inflate their own relative contributions to the family welfare and discount the contributions of their spouses, and as a result, women greatly resent it when men add to their workload through carelessness or indifference.
I'm sure we'll hear from EvenBob on this, but since he hates women, and his wife in particular, whatever input he has will be of...um...limited value. Cogent discussions of a topic like this can only be made with someone who thinks his wife is a human being, with equal rights, abilities, entitlements to happiness, and importance to those of men.
Quote: mkl654321This is another coin that has two sides. You call them "the little things"--whatever those things are--and thus, you will automatically feel that whatever attention women pay to those things is excessive, especially if they don't agree with you that those things are "little". In other words, it's code for "I consider this a 'little thing' because it's not important to ME." But that little thing may either be 1) actually more important than you think it is, or 2) important to your SPOUSE. It's usually something like cleaning up after yourself, or food handling, or not leaving the newspaper strewn all over the couch after you've finished reading it. It could also be something that is intrinsically important, and is not merely a manifestation of your spouse's idiosyncracies, such as turning the lights out when you leave a room. And I would submit that in ANY functioning marriage, if something is important to your spouse, that ipso facto makes it important to you. You're supposed to be on the same side, after all.
Since women (whether they like it or not) have been assigned the domestic role in life throughout most of human history, it stands to reason that women would have more "rules" than men, because keeping up a home and raising a family is such an enormous and complicated task. Because most of what women do in this regard is "invisible", men tend to discount it. A lot of those "little things" that women "make a big deal of" are related to tasks that not only do men never perform, they aren't even aware of their existence. Men tend to inflate their own relative contributions to the family welfare and discount the contributions of their spouses, and as a result, women greatly resent it when men add to their workload through carelessness or indifference.
I'm sure we'll hear from EvenBob on this, but since he hates women, and his wife in particular, whatever input he has will be of...um...limited value. Cogent discussions of a topic like this can only be made with someone who thinks his wife is a human being, with equal rights, abilities, entitlements to happiness, and importance to those of men.
Now I see why you don't like Sarah Palin: She's STRONGER inside (and probably outside) than you! You're the Nancy Grace of the forum, She despises men/you despise women....only she's MARRIED and can actually speak from experience.
I've found however, that avoiding conflict is very unhealthy in a relationship. I get into conflicts all of the time with my wife, but we both know that we aren't going anywhere. We love each other deeply, and work out our conflicts. Yes, she wins more often than I do, but then again, I don't care as much about the conflicts because I look at things long term, while my wife tends to look at the immediate, which is fine. We both have our faults.
20 years of marriage doesn't make it a success or a failure... there are plenty of people who have been married for 20 years and are absolutely miserable about it, yet they stick to it for whatever reason. Being married once gives you the authority to be an authority on YOUR marriage. I find that marriage can be very different experiences for different people. The only people who are real authority on marriage are those who have been counselling it for years on end, and even then, they are really knowledgeable about marriage problems and not necessarily on successful marriages.
Quote: mkl654321This is another coin that has two sides. You call them "the little things"--whatever those things are--and thus, you will automatically feel that whatever attention women pay to those things is excessive, especially if they don't agree with you that those things are "little". In other words, it's code for "I consider this a 'little thing' because it's not important to ME." But that little thing may either be 1) actually more important than you think it is, or 2) important to your SPOUSE. It's usually something like cleaning up after yourself, or food handling, or not leaving the newspaper strewn all over the couch after you've finished reading it. It could also be something that is intrinsically important, and is not merely a manifestation of your spouse's idiosyncracies, such as turning the lights out when you leave a room. And I would submit that in ANY functioning marriage, if something is important to your spouse, that ipso facto makes it important to you. You're supposed to be on the same side, after all.
Nonsense. My wife will never leave me because I don't clean up after myself or turn off the lights, or that I'm a lefty communist from Canada (my wife is a proud Jerry Loganesque / AZ Duffman republican). After being married for a while, these are indeed little things that will never destroy a good marriage. If my marriage ends, it will be because of cheating, addiction, or something else catastrophic, not because I leave the toilet seat up.
Quote: MKLSince women (whether they like it or not) have been assigned the domestic role in life throughout most of human history, it stands to reason that women would have more "rules" than men, because keeping up a home and raising a family is such an enormous and complicated task. Because most of what women do in this regard is "invisible", men tend to discount it. A lot of those "little things" that women "make a big deal of" are related to tasks that not only do men never perform, they aren't even aware of their existence. Men tend to inflate their own relative contributions to the family welfare and discount the contributions of their spouses, and as a result, women greatly resent it when men add to their workload through carelessness or indifference.
Once again, this is not ground breaking, nor is it marriage breaking. Married couples take each other for granted. It's not just what she does that I don't notice, but the things that I do that she doesn't notice. I know that every morning, my belt is hanging in the closet, and I know that my wife put it there, but I rarely acknowledge her for that little task. My wife also does not thank me every day I come home from work, nor do I expect her to.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerI don't think women ultimately appreciate it when their guy is cow-able. In fact, I'm sure it's embarrassing to them in the long run. .
I have just the opposite opinion, from years of observation. The more 'whipped' and cowed the husband, the more fawning and attentive he is, at the expense of anything he might want, the more women will be envious of that 'perfect' marriage.
Back in the 90's, when my wife still had her business, she rented out space to other small biz owners. One couple was in their 40's, the wife was a high profile real estate agent, the husband was a consultant of some kind. This guy was the most whipped husband I'd ever seen. he rarely spoke without looking at the wife first. If you asked him a question in her presense, she would answer it for him about 75% of the time. You never saw one without seeing the other. He would light her cigarettes, run and get her cold soda, pull out her chair, and I'm not kidding, go into the restroom with her. He had no life, no opinion of his own. He made me sick. Yet my wife, my wifes 2 sisters who worked for her, and every woman in that place who knew this couple, thought they had the most perfect relationship they'd ever seen. There was never any conflict, he was always at her side, if she said jump he literally said 'how high, honey'. I've seen other couples kinda like that, but this was the epitome of the overbearing woman and the completely whipped husband, and the wives who knew them LOVED it.
Quote: boymimbo20 years of marriage doesn't make it a success or a failure... there are plenty of people who have been married for 20 years and are absolutely miserable about it, yet they stick to it for whatever reason.
Oh, curiously, every once in awhile you hear of a long term marriages that just seem to dissolve, not from any major event it seems. I wonder about those, and guess that maybe these were people busy in their jobs, children, or some other things, and then suddenly one or the other realizes when they finally have more time together there just isn't enough there of whatever there was to hold them together any longer. Or perhaps their whole perspective on life has gradually changed over all that time and one or the other is not really the same person anymore? But then, I'm not really sure what happens to these relationships.
Quote: rxwineOh, curiously, every once in awhile you hear of a long term marriages that just seem to dissolve, not from any major event it seems. I wonder about those, and guess that maybe these were people busy in their jobs, children, or some other things, and then suddenly one or the other realizes when they finally have more time together there just isn't enough there of whatever there was to hold them together any longer. Or perhaps their whole perspective on life has gradually changed over all that time and one or the other is not really the same person anymore? But then, I'm not really sure what happens to these relationships.
I tingle as I await mkl's expert opinion on 20 years of marriage.
Quote: EvenBobI have just the opposite opinion, from years of observation. The more 'whipped' and cowed the husband, the more fawning and attentive he is, at the expense of anything he might want, the more women will be envious of that 'perfect' marriage.
Back in the 90's, when my wife still had her business, she rented out space to other small biz owners. One couple was in their 40's, the wife was a high profile real estate agent, the husband was a consultant of some kind. This guy was the most whipped husband I'd ever seen. he rarely spoke without looking at the wife first. If you asked him a question in her presense, she would answer it for him about 75% of the time. You never saw one without seeing the other. He would light her cigarettes, run and get her cold soda, pull out her chair, and I'm not kidding, go into the restroom with her. He had no life, no opinion of his own. He made me sick. Yet my wife, my wifes 2 sisters who worked for her, and every woman in that place who knew this couple, thought they had the most perfect relationship they'd ever seen. There was never any conflict, he was always at her side, if she said jump he literally said 'how high, honey'. I've seen other couples kinda like that, but this was the epitome of the overbearing woman and the completely whipped husband, and the wives who knew them LOVED it.
Well, of course I believe the story but geez, that just sounds like an awful way to live for both of them. It also runs contrary to my experience, where none of the women I know want to be with a wimp-dog of a husband. Sure, they joke about it and stuff, but without exception, they say that that's not really what they want. It doesn't happen often, but when we do come across a couple like that, my woman is more disgusted by the wimpiness than impressed with the doting.
The wife you describe might be one of those types where that's where she functions best, and maybe that marriage is genuinely happy ... who's to say what works best for any particular couple? But my bet is that the women watching it and commenting are just saying that's how they would want things in the spirit of the situation. At least, I doubt most of them would really like it if they were really in that situation.
I guess we just have different experience sets, or hang with different kinds of people.
Quote: rxwineOh, curiously, every once in awhile you hear of a long term marriages that just seem to dissolve, not from any major event it seems. I wonder about those, and guess that maybe these were people busy in their jobs, children, or some other things, and then suddenly one or the other realizes when they finally have more time together there just isn't enough there of whatever there was to hold them together any longer. Or perhaps their whole perspective on life has gradually changed over all that time and one or the other is not really the same person anymore? But then, I'm not really sure what happens to these relationships.
Yeah, that happens. One guy I know put it like this: lots of marriages work so much on teamwork (the "you + me") that they don't work enough on one-ness (the "we"). We've all had people that we work really well together with but don't really get along outside of work. I think something similar can happen in marriage.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerwant to be with a wimp-dog of a husband. Sure, they joke about it and stuff, but without exception, they say that that's not really what they want.
Uh Huh. Thats what they say, yet they think marriages where the man dotes on the woman and is totally subservient to her are wonderful. Odd, huh.
Quote: EvenBobUh Huh. Thats what they say, yet they think marriages where the man dotes on the woman and is totally subservient to her are wonderful. Odd, huh.
Your disagreement isn't with me, it's with the women I hang around, none of whom like a wimp-dog. I wouldn't know ... I'm not a woman! :P
Quote: toastcmuMy other married friends are always constantly amazed that my wife lets me take day or 1 night gambling trips to Atlantic City or close by.
-B
We too have friends that are amazed that my wife "lets" me take the occasional solo trip to Vegas. She always tells them that anything I do there I could do at home. Likewise, she has some cruise buddies that she has a great time with without me. I think it is very important that spouses have some separate interests while also having shared interests. Trust is the most important thing. And after 32 years my wife will point out hot women to me in the casino to be sure that I don't miss them. Everyone should be so lucky.
Quote: timberjimWe too have friends that are amazed that my wife "lets" me take the occasional solo trip to Vegas. .
Why are your friends amazed? According to most of the men in this thread, women are easy to deal with and let their men do whatever they want, with no problems. I'm confused.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerYour disagreement isn't with me, it's with the women I hang around, none of whom like a wimp-dog.
Never listen to what a woman says, watch how she reacts. Many women say what they think they should believe, when they really think another way entirely. Thats why Freud was so confused after studying women for years. They say they want one thing, when they really want something else.
Quote: EvenBobNever listen to what a woman says, watch how she reacts. Many women say what they think they should believe, when they really think another way entirely. Thats why Freud was so confused after studying women for years. They say they want one thing, when they really want something else.
That outlook is just a little too cynical for me.
I'm sure I've just had colossally good luck in that most of the women I've been with and hang around aren't like that. Wish that kind of luck would transfer to my lottery tickets ...
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerThat outlook is just a little too cynical for me.
.
Freud is quoted as saying 'what does a woman really want.' He asked the question because the women he worked with constantly told him one thing, thinking it was true, when they didn't feel that way at all. When I was young, I really loved women and thought they were wonderful. I no longer feel that way, and its not because of anything that 'happened' to me. Its from listening to them and observing them for decades. I don't dislike them or think they're bad, I just think most of them have no idea whats really going on in their lives. They have a hard time separating what they want to be happening, from what is really happening. This is why men hold them back in so many cultures. Women didn't even get to vote in this country until less than 100 years ago. Why do you think that was?
Quote: EvenBobFreud is quoted as saying 'what does a woman really want.' He asked the question because the women he worked with constantly told him one thing, thinking it was true, when they didn't feel that way at all. When I was young, I really loved women and thought they were wonderful. I no longer feel that way, and its not because of anything that 'happened' to me. Its from listening to them and observing them for decades. I don't dislike them or think they're bad, I just think most of them have no idea whats really going on in their lives. They have a hard time separating what they want to be happening, from what is really happening. This is why men hold them back in so many cultures. Women didn't even get to vote in this country until less than 100 years ago. Why do you think that was?
I can't help but make the connection that the only common factor in all of Freud's observations is ... umm ... Freud.
I'm no statistician, but as best I'm hearing you/Freud, I'm forced to choose between 1) a flawed man looking through a flawed lens, and 2) assuming that billions of women, throughout history, without exception, "have no idea what's really going on in their lives" and "they have a hard time separating what they want to be happening, from what is really happening."
Heck, I'll give Freud the benefit of the doubt and say that only applies to the however-many women he observed ... say, 6,000 to be generous ... and the certainly flawless subsequent extension to the million-or-so-times more that ever lived.
Freud was a brilliant man, but he, like everyone else, is flawed. And, as Prof. Carl Sagan said, "Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong." Given my choices, I'm going with #1: Freud's conclusion stems from his own hang-ups, and not from some fundamental and immutable failure to grasp reality that all women, everywhere and every-when, suffers from.
If you feel this way, then that's just the lens you see things through. God love you for that. But it doesn't mean it's that way for everyone else.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerBut it doesn't mean it's that way for everyone else.
Its a good question. Why did it take women so long to get the vote? Why did it take until 1920? I'll tell you why. Men didn't trust women to have the judgement to pick candidates objectively. Why did men feel this way? Because they'd been dealing with them forever, thats why. Men and women aren't the same, no amount of denial or wishful thinking will ever make it so.
Quote: EvenBobIts a good question. Why did it take women so long to get the vote? Why did it take until 1920? I'll tell you why. Men didn't trust women to have the judgement to pick candidates objectively. Why did men feel this way? Because they'd been dealing with them forever, thats why. Men and women aren't the same, no amount of denial or wishful thinking will ever make it so.
This will be the same reason it took until 1870 for the black man to get the vote, 1971 for an American under 21 to get the vote and for anyone with net worth less than 40 shillings to get the vote in 1832? A lack of trust?
I don't trust a lot of people to pick candidates objectively, and that's not because of the vagina between their legs.
I really don't think it's a trust thing, it's a power thing.
Quote: thecesspitI really don't think it's a trust thing, it's a power thing.
Women are still second class citizens in most countries in the world. Africa, China, India, the Middle East. Its more than a power thing, its far too wide spread.
