Tipping etiquette?

Quote: MDawg

This envelope for tips in casino resort hotels with the name of the maid on it is something relatively new I think. Maybe in the past decade?

The idea of it is the person who actually cleaned your room will end up with the tip. In practice, I would suggest that it usually gets pocketed by whatever housekeeper ends up cleaning the room after you, unless there is a housekeeping supervisor who is hyper-vigilant about that sort of thing...if there is, then half the time it gets to the right person and the other half the supervisor probably just takes it.

I just leave it out at the end of my stay. As far as who actually gets the tips and who doesn't, it all balances out in the long run.

Quote: rxwine

Why should I pay more for a job I expect to meet a certain standard anyway? There should be an option box. You want extra special service, or standard service. You pay for standard service it should meet a acceptable standard. You want special, you tip.

There's not going to be some bizarre scheme involving filling out forms to determine your level of service in case you are extremely cheap and want to save $1.75 and not get your drinks filled. Plus the time and cost involved with the forms would have to be paid for with higher prices. And every customer other than you would think the restaurant was being run by a mad man when they were handed the form.

RS explained exhaustively, the labor costs have to be paid some way. Either tips or higher prices. The standard tips are for standard service. If the service is excellent you go a bit higher.

At the end of the day, we could do away with tips, destroy millions of middle class jobs, get lower quality service and... maybe you'd save like 2% at restaurants.

i don’t see why everyone shouldn’t work for tips since it is so great.
So, why not have a place on the bill for the cost of the steak dinner, the tip for waiter, and a spot for the owner of the fine restaurant. He puts his suggested take as profit and you pay what you think it was worth.

His profit is of course what he wants to keep after expenses. Are things in good repair, is the place clean, nice decor...etc.,

Quote: billryan

Couple of bucks. I usually don't get daily maid service so I tip when I check out. Usually leave whatever change or small tickets plus something.

How, "Small," are the tickets? If I was a housekeeper and the ticket is for less than $1, you can save me time by throwing it in the trash directly instead of having me do it.

Quote: Mission146

"More than nothing," is usually enough to keep them around, often minimum wage. I hope your room doesn't look like the rooms of some AP's I know by the time you leave, or you should really consider tipping more than nothing.

I leave a pretty undisturbed room. But that's not the point. When did it become customary to tip on hotel rooms?

I think a lot of people like the tipping culture because it gives them a feeling of superiority to the people they are tipping. Not all or even most, but for many an ego stroke they need. It’s also they entire reason a lot of jobs stil exist like doormen, many administrative assistant/secretary type jobs, possibly corporate lawyers, some middle management positions.

Quote: MaxPen

I leave a pretty undisturbed room. But that's not the point. When did it become customary to tip on hotel rooms?

I generally stay at a Vegas Hotel on Christmas. For some reason, i feel I need to tip and tip big

Quote: MaxPen

I leave a pretty undisturbed room. But that's not the point. When did it become customary to tip on hotel rooms?

I wouldn't have the answer to that without having to look it up, or something. As far as I know, it's been customary to tip the housekeeper a few bucks at least on the day you check out for as long as I have been staying at hotels.

Either way, it's the same as anything else. Suppose the average housekeeper makes an, "Extra," $2/hour just off of tips. If someone were to get rid of the tipping custom, (How would that even happen? Make it illegal?) the hotel owner is likely going to increase the housekeeper's hourly wage by a dollar and they're all going to increase room rates by $5 a night even though a housekeeper should be cleaning 2-3 rooms in an hour.

Let's see what happens:

Housekeeper: +$1/hour (wage) -$2/hour (tips) = -$1/hour
Guest: +$5/stay (tips) - $5/night (room cost) = $0 or a loss depending how many nights stayed
Hotel Owner: -$1/hour (wage) + $5/room night = +$4.50 (or more depending on length of stay)

So, how any of this became the standard I don't know, but what I do know is that if you get rid of the tipping standard, in most cases, business owners are going to be the only ones to benefit.

Quote: Mission146

I wouldn't have the answer to that without having to look it up, or something. As far as I know, it's been customary to tip the housekeeper a few bucks at least on the day you check out for as long as I have been staying at hotels.

Either way, it's the same as anything else. Suppose the average housekeeper makes an, "Extra," $2/hour just off of tips. If someone were to get rid of the tipping custom, (How would that even happen? Make it illegal?) the hotel owner is likely going to increase the housekeeper's hourly wage by a dollar and they're all going to increase room rates by $5 a night even though a housekeeper should be cleaning 2-3 rooms in an hour.

Let's see what happens:

Housekeeper: +$1/hour (wage) -$2/hour (tips) = -$1/hour
Guest: +$5/stay (tips) - $5/night (room cost) = $0 or a loss depending how many nights stayed
Hotel Owner: -$1/hour (wage) + $5/room night = +$4.50 (or more depending on length of stay)

So, how any of this became the standard I don't know, but what I do know is that if you get rid of the tipping standard, in most cases, business owners are going to be the only ones to benefit.

I'm not buying that. I wonder what percent of people tip on hotel rooms to begin with. I don't think there's a standard for hotels like there is for restaurants.

Quote:

An Outback server gets no tip on a $735 takeout order, complains ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../an-outback-server-gets-no-tip-on-a-735-takeout-ord...
Feb 12, 2018 - But when the Christian megachurch that ordered it didn't leave a tip, Yoder spoke out in frustration on Facebook — and promptly lost her job

I'm guessing a take out order doesn't take as much work getting out, but that doesn't mean it requires no tip at all considering this is way more than 1 or 2 dinners in a package.

Max: it's been customary to tip chamber maids at least since this Seinfeld aired (1:45)

Quote: MaxPen

I'm not buying that. I wonder what percent of people tip on hotel rooms to begin with. I don't think there's a standard for hotels like there is for restaurants.

I managed economy hotels for a total of about 7.5 years and, in my limited experience, roughly 50% of all rooms tip upon checking out. I would think that this percentage would likely be higher at a more expensive hotel, but you never know.

Also, the $2/hour in tips, on average, is also pretty true from my experience. Most people don't tip $5, usually $1-$2 and some guests have explicitly told me that they just tip a buck for each night stayed all at the end of the stay. Stayovers usually don't tip at all or just tip a dollar. My housekeepers were instructed not to take change sitting on the TV stand (or anywhere else) from a stayover room because, for whatever reason, people just like to leave their change there even if it is not intended for the housekeeper.

Really thinking about it, it probably came out to a little more than $2/hour for the housekeepers, probably not quite $3/hour, but more than $2/hour enough so that $2 is definitely safe to say.

I agree that there really doesn't seem to be any standard set in stone, or anything.

I mean, people tip valets and bellhops (when applicable) and I would say that the housekeeper is not only doing a more difficult job than they are, but also one that is much more gross.

Quote:

According to TripAdvisor, 31 percent of people don't tip hotel maids at all

Quote: rxwine

I'm guessing a take out order doesn't take as much work getting out, but that doesn't mean it requires no tip at all considering this is way more than 1 or 2 dinners in a package.

The only, "Take Out," operation that gets me is pizza places that have a tip jar. I'm talking about places that are not eat in and only serve pizza and other appetizers that one would expect a pizza place to serve.

In what way is packaging all of this stuff an, "Added Service," in this case? Am I going to carry an entire pizza and ten breadsticks without some sort of box? The point is that they would be boxing all of this stuff up one way or the other, it's the only way to transfer any of it to the customer.

Other take out food, yes, completely understood.

Quote: rxwine

See that, apparently my numbers (as I suspected) are from hotels that come in below average in the tipping department. Either that, or non-tippers are willing to lie in TripAdvisor surveys and say they do tip.

Quote: Rigondeaux

At the end of the day, we could do away with tips, destroy millions of middle class jobs, get lower quality service and... maybe you'd save like 2% at restaurants.

I have spent a good deal of time in Japan, never received better service anywhere in the U.S. or other tipping culture, enjoyed my experience more because I did not obsess over what was appropriate or worry about ruining someone’s day, and didn’t pay any more than I otherwise would have. I have been told that tipping there is considered a sign of their poor service, as if you are saying “please try harder next time.” They more value (and expect) politeness.

My own feeling is that I wish it was this way here in the U.S. Of course, I think comfort in tipping at a certain level for a specific service or not tipping at all for poor service or certain services is somewhat a personality trait and that is why there is disagreement on this. It seems non-confrontational and uncertain folks might over-tip, and might be the ones who prefer it go away.

I had a $360 handpay (!?!) the other day and while waiting for the tech all I could think about was what I should do. I am sure many of you are laughing at this. I am not a newbie — I have had this experience many times over 25 years, and it is never enjoyable. I admit, I probably have mental issues.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I think, perhaps being tech nerds who think in spread sheets, they made the false assumption that people only care about the total cost of the service, regardless of where it goes. So they wanted to keep the "tip" portion of the price for themselves. But they were wrong. Most people are happy to pay an extra amount, IF THEY KNOW, it allows the person who is serving them, and talking to them and looking them in the eye, to live in a decent place and put food on the table.

Note: Emphasis mine.

I think they are right. I submit that employers of tip-receiving employees pay them less by about the amount they estimate the tip wills be. Casino dealers at even the nicest of properties here in Vegas make not much more than minimum wage. The casinos get away with it because the dealers can count on most of their income from tips.

Speaking for myself only, I'd rather pay one amount only and end the guessing game. I submit most people know this and think as I do.

I wonder if menus should just automatically put tip and tax into the menu price. For example, a steak quad(, ribeye steak, fries, margarita, and a ice cream brownie is $40. With tax and tip, that is roughly $49. Why not take out the guesswork and say right on the menu,"Steak quad-$49?

Quote: Mission146

I managed economy hotels for a total of about 7.5 years and, in my limited experience, roughly 50% of all rooms tip upon checking out. I would think that this percentage would likely be higher at a more expensive hotel, but you never know.

Also, the $2/hour in tips, on average, is also pretty true from my experience. Most people don't tip $5, usually $1-$2 and some guests have explicitly told me that they just tip a buck for each night stayed all at the end of the stay. Stayovers usually don't tip at all or just tip a dollar. My housekeepers were instructed not to take change sitting on the TV stand (or anywhere else) from a stayover room because, for whatever reason, people just like to leave their change there even if it is not intended for the housekeeper.

Really thinking about it, it probably came out to a little more than $2/hour for the housekeepers, probably not quite $3/hour, but more than $2/hour enough so that $2 is definitely safe to say.

I agree that there really doesn't seem to be any standard set in stone, or anything.

I mean, people tip valets and bellhops (when applicable) and I would say that the housekeeper is not only doing a more difficult job than they are, but also one that is much more gross.

$2 an hour from tips and an extra $5 an hour from pilfering crap.

Maybe I could enjoy the same restaurant RS does. Just create a section of seats like a high limit room. RS can sit in the seats where he can pay the male waiter with a tight butt to hustle by filling his water glass every 30 seconds as much as he likes and I’ll sit in the cheap seats eating the same meal trying to make my water last the entire meal, happily not being bothered by the one armed waitress with a fright wig and butt wider than a school bus.

Quote: Nathan

I wonder if menus should just automatically put tip and tax into the menu price. For example, a steak quad(, ribeye steak, fries, margarita, and a ice cream brownie is $40. With tax and tip, that is roughly $49. Why not take out the guesswork and say right on the menu,"Steak quad-$49?

I like the concept. But who will be the first one to take the risk and charge people 20% above FMV. Granted, it will be the same at the end of the night but there is ample evidence across multiple industries that might cause hesitation.

For instance, in air travel, Southwest Airlines which doesn't charge for checked bags does not even compete on many travel sites because their fees are included in the price of the ticket and it would take them off the front page.

It would be akin to being the first Vegas Hotel to include the resort fee with their advertised hotel rate on these travel sites. I mean $120 a night is the same as $79 a night plus $41 resort fee but when someone booking a vacation sees two hotels equal star level with one at $79 and one at $120 most people are gonna gravitate toward $79 despite the hidden fees

Quote: Gabes22

I like the concept. But who will be the first one to take the risk and charge people 20% above FMV. Granted, it will be the same at the end of the night but there is ample evidence across multiple industries that might cause hesitation.

For instance, in air travel, Southwest Airlines which doesn't charge for checked bags does not even compete on many travel sites because their fees are included in the price of the ticket and it would take them off the front page.

It would be akin to being the first Vegas Hotel to include the resort fee with their advertised hotel rate on these travel sites. I mean $120 a night is the same as $79 a night plus $41 resort fee but when someone booking a vacation sees two hotels equal star level with one at $79 and one at $120 most people are gonna gravitate toward $79 despite the hidden fees

I got my idea from my United Kingdom Customers who ask me why the Hanes 3 pack shirt says 14.99 on the shelf and at the register it is $16.04. I tell them that tax gets added at the register. They claim that in the UK, tax is already added at the shelf, so that Hanes pack would say $16.04 at the shelf. That's actually a good concept. 😃

Quote: Wizard

Quote: Rigondeaux

I think, perhaps being tech nerds who think in spread sheets, they made the false assumption that people only care about the total cost of the service, regardless of where it goes. So they wanted to keep the "tip" portion of the price for themselves. But they were wrong. Most people are happy to pay an extra amount, IF THEY KNOW, it allows the person who is serving them, and talking to them and looking them in the eye, to live in a decent place and put food on the table.

Note: Emphasis mine.

I think they are right. I submit that employers of tip-receiving employees pay them less by about the amount they estimate the tip wills be. Casino dealers at even the nicest of properties here in Vegas make not much more than minimum wage. The casinos get away with it because the dealers can count on most of their income from tips.

Speaking for myself only, I'd rather pay one amount only and end the guessing game. I submit most people know this and think as I do.

As far as I can tell, you're agreeing with me.

Tipped employees: the employers pay them much less, yet overall they often make a good living.

Non tipped employees: The employers pay them more, yet they make less.

Uber went with number 2, not understanding that many people will pay a bigger total price, IF they know it is going to the person doing the work for them, and not to some rich guy. They thought that customers would be willing to "tip" a giant corporation instead.

Now they have a dissatisfied, lower quality workforce. And their prices are rising, leaving customers dissatisfied. And, they can't turn a profit, even constantly slashing wages and raising prices.

Quote: kuma

I have spent a good deal of time in Japan, never received better service anywhere in the U.S. or other tipping culture, enjoyed my experience more because I did not obsess over what was appropriate or worry about ruining someone’s day, and didn’t pay any more than I otherwise would have. I have been told that tipping there is considered a sign of their poor service, as if you are saying “please try harder next time.” They more value (and expect) politeness.

My own feeling is that I wish it was this way here in the U.S. Of course, I think comfort in tipping at a certain level for a specific service or not tipping at all for poor service or certain services is somewhat a personality trait and that is why there is disagreement on this. It seems non-confrontational and uncertain folks might over-tip, and might be the ones who prefer it go away.

I had a $360 handpay (!?!) the other day and while waiting for the tech all I could think about was what I should do. I am sure many of you are laughing at this. I am not a newbie — I have had this experience many times over 25 years, and it is never enjoyable. I admit, I probably have mental issues.

I don't know the particulars of Japan and each individual country. However, it seems like there is a political or business culture that seeks to provide decent wages for workers in a lot of these countries. Someone recently told me (ITT?), for example, that in Australia, dealers make $30/hr. Of course, those countries also all have stronger social safety nets as well. So making $30/hr in Oz is probably like making $40/hr here, in terms of your lifestyle.

In America, non-tipped workers in the service industry generally hover around poverty and have they have less social safety net than in any other first world country. Whether you're for it or against it, that's just the way it is. I don't totally know the reasons for it.

Not to veer too far off topic, but over recent decades, members of both parties have favored policies to reduce the middle class by as much as possible (open borders, outsourcing, student loan debt, reduced bankruptcy protection, increased health care costs, diminished social services, regressive taxation, keeping min wage low, eliminating unions etc. etc.) Not expand it. So, it's very unlikely that the entire country is going to become like Japan or Australia and people are going to start making $30/hr and have tons of social services and less student loan debt and so forth. It's the exact opposite.

Anyway, the reality of the situation is that in the U.S. these are often good, middle class or working class jobs: waiter, bartender, dealer, cocktails, valet, bell hop or doorman and (previously) taxi driver.

These people typically live around the poverty line: big box employees, fast food, uber drivers, custodians, call center, bank teller.

So CLEARLY, tipping works better in our culture.

If tipping causes you anxiety, why not just work on reducing your anxiety? Seems better than destroying someone else's livelihood.

In general, I don't understand why so many people are angered or anxious about giving someone a couple of dollars for a job well done. Maybe it's related to this being a gambling forum. People hung up on money or unusually greedy?

Quote: Rigondeaux

These people typically live around the poverty line: big box employees, fast food, uber drivers, custodians, call center, bank teller.

So, you believe Walmart, Mcdonalds, and the like would be good paying jobs if they encouraged tipping? And I suppose business would improve as well. Maybe you should bring it up to the corporate heads. Maybe they just didn't think of it.

Quote: rxwine

So, you believe Walmart, Mcdonalds, and the like would be good paying jobs if they encouraged tipping? And I suppose business would improve as well. Maybe you should bring it up to the corporate heads. Maybe they just didn't think of it.

Possibly. I already floated the idea that, one way we could bring back the middle class would be to expand tipping.

Do you deny that, overall, people who work for tips do far better than people who work similar jobs without tips?

I can't think of a job in the service industry where people make good money without either tips or commission. I don't think it's a coincidence.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I can't think of a job in the service industry where people make good money without either tips or commission. I don't think it's a coincidence.

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.

Quote: rxwine

Yeah, but why your idea sucks here.

That waiter doesn't know if you're are actually going to pay him a good tip. He hopes you do, but you're so called great idea of tipping guarantees him ZILCH. Why should he not get what he deserves when he deserves it?

I'm fine with paying extra for people doing extra when I want it. He or she makes money; I get exactly what I want.

You're right, he isn't guaranteed anything. But the reality is, it's a fairly stable job. It's not like he's going to be going through long droughts of not getting any tips. But don't pretend that if something isn't guaranteed there's a realistic risk of it not happening. Sun isn't guaranteed to be there tomorrow, but I'll bet every dollar I have that it will be.

Quote: kuma

I have spent a good deal of time in Japan, never received better service anywhere in the U.S. or other tipping culture, enjoyed my experience more because I did not obsess over what was appropriate or worry about ruining someone’s day, and didn’t pay any more than I otherwise would have. I have been told that tipping there is considered a sign of their poor service, as if you are saying “please try harder next time.” They more value (and expect) politeness.

Japan has a much different culture than the USA. I don't think most Americans, at least in the service industry, have the same kind of gusto in providing great service that you see in some Asian countries.

I didn't realize people's experiences got soured because they may have a tough time figuring out how much to tip or that people even obsess over how much to tip.

Quote: AxelWolf

$2 an hour from tips and an extra $5 an hour from pilfering crap.

I think you forgot several 0's after that $5.

Quote: rxwine

Maybe I could enjoy the same restaurant RS does. Just create a section of seats like a high limit room. RS can sit in the seats where he can pay the male waiter with a tight butt to hustle by filling his water glass every 30 seconds as much as he likes and I’ll sit in the cheap seats eating the same meal trying to make my water last the entire meal, happily not being bothered by the one armed waitress with a fright wig and butt wider than a school bus.

That sounds like absolute torture, to be honest. Trying to preserve 1 cup of water for a whole meal....ugh. I drink 2-3 glasses of water or other beverage when I'm having a meal. Reminds me of a friend of a friend in college -- he was pretty cheap (not calling you cheap) and he'd buy those little mini dixie cups. He'd use them to drink milk while eating dinner, effectively rationing himself on his milk consumption so he wouldn't go through half half the jug in a single meal. To me, that's just pure misery (aside from the fact milk drinkers are.....well, they're just "different"). Once my drink gets down to 1/4 or even 1/2 full, I'm wanting a refill because I can drink the remaining amount in 2 gulps.

Quote: AxelWolf

$2 an hour from tips and an extra $5 an hour from pilfering crap.

Ugh. Unless GoodWill is paying more than I would think on used clothes, we didn’t really experience anyone leave anything of any great value. We did have a lady swear up and down for three days that she left a big skin cream canister that actually had a couple thousand of jewelry in it, but she ended up finding it in the back of her van in a small cooler that the husband just shoved it in while they were getting ready.

Of course, vehemently denying it and eventually getting angry is what you would do if you had stolen it or if you hadn’t, which is what she was accusing the housekeeper and myself of, so that’s what happened. She was almost begrudging rather than apologetic when she called and said it’d been found, though I did convince her to call the franchise and ask them to remove her complaint from us.

Why the hell you would keep expensive jewelry in such a thing I have no idea. Prior to her calling us, my operating assumption was that the housekeeper just threw away the skin cream canister as the people were checkouts. They wouldn’t really turn in that kind of stuff. Where would you stop? Bars of soap that are only half used? I think the stupidest thing that I’d ever had anyone get mad about was actually a half bottle of shampoo because it was, “Expensive shampoo.” They were SHOCKED that the housekeeper would just throw it away or that the hotel would allow for such a thing.

Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.

You do realize that your meal is going to cost you more in a tip-less restaurant so the employee can get paid more by the employer? It's not like a $100 meal + $20 tip in a tipped restaurant and $100 meal + $0 tip in a non-tipped restaurant. The owner has to make up the difference one way or another. Why do you want to be forced to pay the restaurant an extra $20 just so they can give part of that back to their employees?

I guess another way to even it out would be to cut employees. If there's 12 employees working a restaurant, the owner may figure if he's going to start paying them $15/hour, then he's going to cut it to 8 employees and make them work harder. He's paying them more now, right, why shouldn't they work harder? And now your dream of getting crap service can be met. Now you have terrible service, your food is the same or more expensive, the employees are making less money than they were before, and there are fewer people working. Utopian dream.

Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.

I don’t recall what your personal tipping standards were, but I can tell you that the owner is going to, “Make out,” either way. It’s not like he’s suddenly going to incur an increase in labor costs and not do anything about it with price increases.

If you want to know who actually makes out in the current system, that’s an easy one: The people who don’t tip are making out. The prices are going to go up if we get rid of tipping, so they can’t possibly want that because it’ll cost them more money...though it’s a fine justification in the meantime. What the non-tippers should do is just quietly don’t leave a tip rather than not leave a tip AND try to justify themselves to the majority of society that does tip.

Even if someone doesn’t think the current state of affairs should be the case, the person knows what the state of affairs is right now. I say don’t rip the server (or whoever) off and use other avenues to try to effectuate change. Why do you think the tipped employees, for the most part, don’t want to move away from tipping? Answer: Because they know there’s not a chance in hell the owner pays what they are making with tips on direct.

Quote: RS

And now your dream of getting crap service can be met.

Only when you stop doing something you shouldn't have started in the first place do people take it out on you.

I worked for years without tips. Had someone started tipping and then stopped, I might have taken it personally. Did I do a poor job because I wasn't getting tipped. No I did a good job because I'd get fired for one thing. But it didn't occur to me anyway, because the idea of tipping wasn't even in my head.

My beef is two things. Itemization of what extra service I paid for. And choice whether to have any upgraded service at all. I took my car in for maintenance the other day. Had it come back fully detailed and the guy had his hand out for something I never asked for I'd be upset.

Quote: rxwine

My beef is two things. Itemization of what extra service I paid for. And choice whether to have any upgraded service at all. I took my car in for maintenance the other day. Had it come back fully detailed and the guy had his hand out for something I never asked for I'd be upset.

You can choose the downgraded service. Just sit down in the restaurant and inform your server that under no circumstances will he/she be getting a tip from you. I would think you will get the downgraded service in most cases.

Quote: rxwine

The logic goes, the worker makes more in a restaurant, because the owner won't pay him that much.

Don't you see the problem with that -- the only person who is making out is the owner. We make up the difference as the customer. It's not costing us less. It's not free money coming out of nowhere.

jfc.

Firstly, you need to understand that the attitude you are laying out is at the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of greed/cheapness. MOST people, are happy to pay someone well for a job well done. It is UNUSUAL, to have heart palpitations about giving someone an extra dollar or two, or think to oneself, "man, I wish I could not have my drink refilled and save 80 cents."

The world cannot be built to accommodate the idiosyncrasies of every odd ball out there. (This is why I hate "service animals."). You can't have a whole section of every restaurant for people who are neurotically cheap or consumed by greed, and some bureaucracy for dealing especially with them. Any more than you can have special lanes on the highway for people who want to drive 35mph, or have a special section at the movies where it's OK to yack on your phone.

Building on that, MOST customers benefit from 1) better service, which MOST of them desire. 2) It makes them happy to pay someone fairly.

Society as a whole benefits from middle class jobs.

Yes, the owner benefits too. Great! I'm happy for him! I'm also happy that there are more restaurants for me to choose from because this business model is so great.

The employees ALSO benefit. I'm happy for them too! My waiter can afford to take his kids to the movies. Great! I prefer other people to be happy rather than unhappy. Especially if I am involved in the equation.

Even if I was 100% selfish, I've won a lot of money from bartenders, dealers, etc. Little to none from people who work at Wal-Mart. IDK what business you are in, but it probably needs customers. People who can barely make rent and food aren't going to be customers for a lot of businesses. And it's not just their direct business. If your waiter buys a car, some guy makes a commission. Then that guy can eat out. Then HIS waiter can buy some comic books. Then Bill Ryan can go to a baseball game.... etc. That's why the city of Las Vegas is not just some resorts and a bunch of employee housing, but a city full of car dealerships, comic book stores, restaurants, etc.

Lastly.

JFC!!!

you're now reiterating what RS said. YES. You are going to have to pay the costs of operating the restaurant either way. If tipping disappeared, the amount of money you saved would be pretty small.

Quote: Mission146

You can choose the downgraded service. Just sit down in the restaurant and inform your server that under no circumstances will he/she be getting a tip from you. I would think you will get the downgraded service in most cases.

That would work fine in a place where no tipping was expected. But like I said, when you start doing something, people expect a certain amount of gratuity whether they deserve it or not. You just want me to get poisoned.

Quote: rxwine

Only when you stop doing something you shouldn't have started in the first place do people take it out on you.

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.

Quote: rxwine

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.

1. What is a slippery slope logical fallacy?

2. lolwut. How much do you think this would cost the top dog? I mean come on, you gotta be joking here.

Quote: rxwine

That would work fine in a place where no tipping was expected. But like I said, when you start doing something, people expect a certain amount of gratuity whether they deserve it or not. You just want me to get poisoned.

If someone does solid work for me, they do in fact deserve to get paid. Preferably, a nice wage that allows them to have a reasonable amount of comfort and freedom. I want both of us to come away happy. So if I'm happy, they'll be happy. I know that seems weird to you. But it's not weird. It's actually pretty weird to harbor a bunch of anxiety and resentment about having to pay someone who does work for you, or to want them to be poor.

It's pretty rare that someone has done such shoddy work that I think, "I shouldn't even pay for this. The value is literally zero." At least when they work for tips. Happens more often with people who don't. If they DO work for tips, I can elect to reduce their pay. I've never had such terrible service that I gave a waiter zero. But I'll reduce their pay by 50% or so, maybe 1/100 times. Other times I'll just tip the standard min of 15% if I feel they were just going through the motions. If they are doing their best, which is the norm, I pay them well.

Other times someone who I normally wouldn't tip knocks it out of the park. I'll give them something and we're both really happy. This is good.

Quote: rxwine

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.

Premise 1 is some fantasy world in your imagination, and what you are describing is more like a 3rd world bribery system. Actually, tipping generally works the other way because you tip after the fact. So you can refuse to pay the person who provided the service, after you recieved it. (Which basically makes you a theif). Moreover, you are not paying someone off for a special favor. You are paying somebody who has provided you with a service for their work.

There are a handful of cases where a tip is more of a bribe to get a special favor. But those are unusual.

Premise 2 is also unrealistic, especially in the U.S. That's just not how things work. Real wages have been going down since like the late 70s and there are fewer middle class jobs than ever. The CEO of CET isn't going to just spontaniously give away his salary to all the waiters so that extreme cheapskates don't have to tip. Even if he did, I doubt he makes enough to cover it.

I mean, I can say, Bezos, Buffet and Gates SHOULD start a trust that pays poker dealers so that I don't have to tip. So what? That's never going to happen on planet earth. It's just some idea in my head. So what's it got to do with anything?

Quote: RS

1. What is a slippery slope logical fallacy?

2. lolwut. How much do you think this would cost the top dog? I mean come on, you gotta be joking here.

Quote:

Logic and critical thinking textbooks typically discuss slippery slope arguments as a form of fallacy but usually acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments can be good ones if the slope is real—that is, if there is good evidence that the consequences of the initial action are highly likely to occur.

The point isn't that top dog cover all, but whether top dog is even trying, or just taking as much as possible.

I'm not joking, except when I am. Best to keep guessing which, if you need to occupy your mind space on something.

Edit, there is also plenty of evidence that top dogs reward themselves much quicker and more often than they move the benefits of those at the bottom. If they don't feel guilty about it, I don't feel guilty about calling it out.

Quote: Mission146

Ugh. Unless GoodWill is paying more than I would think on used clothes, we didn’t really experience anyone leave anything of any great value. We did have a lady swear up and down for three days that she left a big skin cream canister that actually had a couple thousand of jewelry in it, but she ended up finding it in the back of her van in a small cooler that the husband just shoved it in while they were getting ready.

Of course, vehemently denying it and eventually getting angry is what you would do if you had stolen it or if you hadn’t, which is what she was accusing the housekeeper and myself of, so that’s what happened. She was almost begrudging rather than apologetic when she called and said it’d been found, though I did convince her to call the franchise and ask them to remove her complaint from us.

Why the hell you would keep expensive jewelry in such a thing I have no idea. Prior to her calling us, my operating assumption was that the housekeeper just threw away the skin cream canister as the people were checkouts. They wouldn’t really turn in that kind of stuff. Where would you stop? Bars of soap that are only half used? I think the stupidest thing that I’d ever had anyone get mad about was actually a half bottle of shampoo because it was, “Expensive shampoo.” They were SHOCKED that the housekeeper would just throw it away or that the hotel would allow for such a thing.

You probably only had broke ass b*****s staying at that crack shack.

Quote: rxwine

Quote:

Logic and critical thinking textbooks typically discuss slippery slope arguments as a form of fallacy but usually acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments can be good ones if the slope is real—that is, if there is good evidence that the consequences of the initial action are highly likely to occur.

The point isn't that top dog cover all, but whether top dog is even trying, or just taking as much as possible.

I'm not joking, except when I am. Best to keep guessing which, if you need to occupy your mind space on something.

They (slippery slope arguments) CAN be valid. That doesn't mean yours is. Yours is terrible. You are suggesting you wouldn't get health care at a hospital because you don't tip in this fantasy-land you cooked up.

What you're suggesting (in this thread as a whole) is so far removed from reality & logic.....it's.....I don't even know how to respond anymore. Seemingly everything you write is wrong or backed by mere desire without considering the effects...all just to "fix" a problem that doesn't even exist. The problem is purely imaginative. I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just messing around and you got rigindux and me in a good prank wasting our time.

How far from reality is a non-tipping job? Not far, bub.

Anyway, wasn't Rigondeaux who said Uber made a mistake not allowing tipping. (maybe it was him, not sure)

I wanted to comment it on that, as I don't think he considered that Uber was able to undercut much of the Taxi industry. Had Uber really added tips in the beginning they probably would have failed with that extra pricing in the mix being uncompetitive. Now that they secured billions of dollars after f***ing over the taxi industry, I guess they slash the throats of the drivers that oppose them as well.

The wall street journal reported that 15% of waitstaff live in poverty compared to 7% of regular workers.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tips-dont-add-up-for-most-waiters-and-waitresses-1407520147

Quote: rxwine

How far from reality is a non-tipping job? Not far, bub.

Anyway, wasn't Rigondeaux who said Uber made a mistake not allowing tipping. (maybe it was him, not sure)

I wanted to comment it on that, as I don't think he considered that Uber was able to undercut much of the Taxi industry. Had Uber really added tips in the beginning they probably would have failed with that extra pricing in the mix being uncompetitive. Now that they secured billions of dollars after f***ing over the taxi industry, I guess they slash the throats of the drivers that oppose them as well.

Again, you need to realize it is UNUSUAL to be so cheap and resentful that you want people who work for you to be poor. Most people don't think that way.

Yes. Uber's plan from the beginning was to pay drivers well and charge low prices thus driving competition out. Then to slash pay and raise prices.

So they succeeded in destroying a lot of small businesses and replacing good jobs with poverty jobs

They also lost $3 BILLION last year. That's not easy to do!

Now they have striking workers. These people can't really afford to say, get their tires and brakes changed when it's time. They work for 10 or 12 hours or more. And they're driving you and yours.

I've noticed lower quality across the board, though I rarely use it.

It's almost as expensive as a taxi.

So where do they go from here?

This is your shining example of a tipless utopia?

Now, if drivers made a $3 to $5 standard tip, Uber could pay half of what they do now and pass some savings on to the consumer.

It would be a decent job and you'd have better and safer cars and drivers

Quote: Rigondeaux

It's almost as expensive as a taxi.

Really? I don't use Uber, I use Lyft, but I thought they were about the same. The price is not even close to the same as a taxi.

All the Lyft drivers I talk to say they are doing well. I guess they are not going to say, NO this jobs sucks and I'm poor.

Quote: rxwine

That would work fine in a place where no tipping was expected. But like I said, when you start doing something, people expect a certain amount of gratuity whether they deserve it or not. You just want me to get poisoned.

I don't think they would have the guy with strep throat spit on and then rub the spit into your steak. Most restaurant employees I know are a bit more conscientious than that, they'd have one of the healthy people do it.

Quote: rxwine

My 1st premise: How pro-tipper a-holes ruin it for everyone.

Let's make a possible example. Pro-tipper a-holes start a practice of tipping 20-40 dollars to clerks making medical appointments. Years later after finding out why you've been waiting extra months to get appts, you find out you needed to hand the clerk a tip just to get in the normal line. Clerk has gotten use to the money, now it becomes more of an expectation.

Next thing you know it's spread through hospital services. You end up in a hospital bed with two broken legs and the orderly who used to at least ignore people equally, is down the f***ing hall because you didn't fork over a extra $20 so you laying in your own waste matter for an extra hour.

My 2nd premise (now you got me triggered) remember income inequality. Customers shouldn't be making up his deficient salary, it should always be coming off the top man or woman running the place or Corp FIRST god****it. Shave his salary first.

PREMISE 1: You're comparing necessary medical care to going out and getting a steak dinner? The thing about the tip industries is that these are all largely optional activities, unlike necessary medical care. Restaurant, Starbucks, taxicab, have the newspaper delivered...optional from top to bottom. Hotels, arguably, are not always optional, but are for the most part.

When you talk about greasing palms for something that is medically necessary, I'm pretty sure that you've crossed into illegally accepting bribes at that point, at least I would like to think so.

PREMISE 2: Again, not going to happen. The business owner is going to raise prices in such a way that more than covers the increase in the wages, alternatively, lay staff off...probably both. You'll have fewer waiters with more, "Side stuff," to do who are making less money while the owner/corporation increases prices.

ADDED: You also realize that there is a different minimum wage both federally and in several (if not all) states for employees who make money primarily off of tips. The only requirement that the employer has is that, if the tips + base wage fail to get the employee up to the regular minimum wage, the employer must then do it. The minimum wages in Ohio are $8.30 and $4.15, respectively.

Okay, so now you're going to tell all the restaurant owners that they literally have to double the base pay that they are paying the waiters/waitresses/bartenders...I don't see how they don't make the service worse, demand they do more or increase prices. Meantime, these people who probably actually make $12-$20/hour now make $8.30 an hour. That's helpful.

Again, everyone loses, EXCEPT the owner of the restaurant. He probably finds a way to win on the deal.

For my part, I'm not making any defense of or speaking to how the system came to be this way, I'm just saying there are going to be losers if the system is changed and there is only one possible winner: owners.

I guess I kind of win because I tip more than 20%. If you just raise the food costs by 20% and I am absolutely not permitted to tip, it saves me money. I still wouldn't want to see a bunch of $12-$20/hour jobs become $8.30/hour jobs overnight.

Quote: AxelWolf

You probably only had broke ass b*****s staying at that crack shack.

Nah, oil and gas workers for the most part, at least the last few years I was there. They have plenty of money, just no real need to be travelling with a ton of valuable possessions. We tried to return anything of any real value anyway, unless we were told to just keep it upon contacting the person.

The first hotel I worked at was definitely mainly made up of broke ass b*****s, but I liked ownership a lot better. Nothing left there because most of the people staying were either live-ins or just staying with the clothes on their back.

Quote: rxwine

The wall street journal reported that 15% of waitstaff live in poverty compared to 7% of regular workers.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tips-dont-add-up-for-most-waiters-and-waitresses-1407520147

State minimum wage would still be poverty, except then, 100% of them would live in poverty.

I've gotta count my chips before coloring up or the crew will take their own tip and hope I don't notice, or if I did notice, they'd say "Well, somebody else tipped us! Are you trying to take our tips?"

I tip $1 for the drink lady when I receive an ordered drink, but that doesn't ensure prompt service because she might not serve the drink for half an hour after I order it and she might not come around again for another 2 hours. It's a full table. I can't run off to the soda dispensary and spend 5 minutes fussing with the ice level.

If I'm tipping based on wins, or on a color up, I would normally go with 0.2%, or $1 per $500. That's house edge I'm giving back. But absent my high stakes winnings, they don't get a tip if I'm leaving with less than I bought in for. I wouldn't make a bet for them, I'd rather pay them directly because half of the bets lose, so why make them & me wait for a winning bet?

Anyway, I'd like to double my stakes enough that I had a spare dollar to toss them at the end. I expect higher amount winners will be generous while I'm scraping by on nearly nothing.

Question about Tipping Dealers. Chump Change brought up a point about tipping dealers and this question has been on my mind for a long time. Are we supposed to tip when we LOSE? I find it kind of weird that people have said that we are supposed to tip even if we LOST. I find that to be in bad taste to be expected to give even more money after we already lost. If we are UP, it's a jerky move IMHO to not tip. But if we are DOWN, I think it's not a jerky move to not tip.