Casinos killing the ploppies instead of bleeding them slowly

6:5 bj, triple zero roulette, no more 99% vp.

it seems like all the major casinos are racing to the bottom to maximize short term profit.
instead of bleeding the ploppies slowly, it seems they want every last drop of blood NOW.

and it's not just ploppies.
Caesar did major downgrades to the comps/benefits for mid level players (Diamonds) and high rollers (7Stars).
and from what i've read, it has pissed them off. I know im cutting back to only getting the minimum 25k tc for free access to the diamond lounges.
cant wait to see CET's year over year revenue figures in 9months or so.

so What changed?
Why did they switch from sheering the sheep strategy to slaughtering them?

I don't know, but I bet the pendulum swings the other way in 5-10 years or so, and we'll start seeing all the "good" games come back.

Because your random degen gambler doesn't have to go to Vegas to gamble anymore. They have a casino nearby. The people going to Vegas and playing low limit slots/tables don't know the difference between 99.73% NSUD and a 12/8 DW abortion. Nor do they distinguish between BJ 6:5 and 3:2.

Quote: sabre

Because your random degen gambler doesn't have to go to Vegas to gamble anymore. They have a casino nearby.
The people going to Vegas and playing low limit slots/tables don't know the difference between 99.73% NSUD and a 12/8 DW abortion. Nor do they distinguish between BJ 6:5 and 3:2.

you think casinos can survive on degen ploppies alone since even recreational gamblers will realize they are been slaughtered instead of sheered?

Note: The smart gamblers who only play 99%+ vp machines/table games have already fled these cesspools.
And before you say good riddance since casinos don't want them anyway.
1% profit is still better than no profit at an empty seat.

The difference between 3-2 and 6-5 blackjack is less than one bet per hour. In Las Vegas that means the cost to sit at the bad blackjack tables has gone up less than the cost to park your car

It used to be that casinos did things to keep players playing. Now they do things to empty players wallets/ATM cards and get them out the door faster. Players aren't losing more money, they're just losing it faster.

I wonder if there was ever a period in Vegas, where current gamblers didn't moan about how the conditions were so much better a few years ago. I can just see the BJ players of 1968 cursing the changes since Thorpes book came out and predicting the demise of blackjack.

Ploppies are profitable and plentiful. So what is so wrong with switching from two pints to totally exsanguinating them? There are always going to be a fresh crop of ploppies seeking glitter, glamor and a bit of gambling. The whole country is going to 'the bottom line' 'earnings per share' rather than long term growth. So why should a Gambling Company be all that much different.

I do however agree that "the good old days" probably never were.

Quote: FleaStiff

Ploppies are profitable and plentiful. So what is so wrong with switching from two pints to totally exsanguinating them? There are always going to be a fresh crop of ploppies seeking glitter, glamor and a bit of gambling. The whole country is going to 'the bottom line' 'earnings per share' rather than long term growth. So why should a Gambling Company be all that much different.

I do however agree that "the good old days" probably never were.

Good point but it's temporary (I hope!). Short-term thinking like this will lead to failure, and new management changes the games and comps to convince their pissed-off players to come back.

The same thing happens in the airline industry. When times are tough, or less frequently, a new airline appears, generous mileage promotions appear (e.g. double miles on certain routes, a free ticket for buying 4 tickets, etc.) When times are good (like they are now), the frequent flyer programs are simply rebate programs similar to VP (i.e. sucky). When times are bad the frequent flyer programs become more like slot play comps... rich!

About ten years ago when there were more airlines and the economy was bad, I got a free ticket on AA by flying just two round trips between JFK and LGB (Long Beach, CA). Less than $400 for JFK-LGB two roundtrips and a free trip to Chile -- excellent deal. I also racked up tens of thousands of miles on Delta just by changing planes more often than necessary (more miles that way). Now I type in my frequent flyer number and hope they stay in business long enough for me to redeem one economy class roundtrip in the lower 48.

You can shear a sheep once a week. You can only skin him once.

Weirdly enough, at my casino (I deal on the strip, 6/5 BJ (No Surrender/EvenMoney, Spilt A once) 3-4-5x craps) our tips have gotten a lot better over the last year in comparison to 2014-2016

Quote: GlenG

Weirdly enough, at my casino (I deal on the strip, 6/5 BJ (No Surrender/EvenMoney, Spilt A once) 3-4-5x craps) our tips have gotten a lot better over the last year in comparison to 2014-2016

millennials better tippers?
Or do you have an idea why?

Quote: TomG

The difference between 3-2 and 6-5 blackjack is less than one bet per hour. In Las Vegas that means the cost to sit at the bad blackjack tables has gone up less than the cost to park your car

^ THIS

Actually, there's much more to it.

1. The HE and the player's disadvantage are two different things, at least, sorta. If a ploppy plays a BJ game, 3:2 with a 0.5% HE with the rules, he's probably more like playing with a 2-3% disadvantage, since he's standing on 12vs2-3, standing 16vs9/T/A, doesn't double/split properly, etc.

So if he puts through $1,000 in action per hour, the ploppy is going to lose $30/hour (at a 3% disadvantage, let's say). Now when that game is changed to 6:5 BJ, his disadvantage goes to an extra ~1.4%, for a net disadvantage of 4.4% or he'll be losing $44/hour in EV.

Sure, a 46% increase in expected loss seems like a lot, but the monetary amount isn't that much. Plus, there's also variance:

2. Variance. Just because you expect to lose some amount per hour doesn't mean you're going to lose that much per hour, every time, on the spot. Someone goes to Vegas and plays for a few hours, it's a toss up as to whether he's going to win or lose. Sure, after a few years he might notice he's losing more money....but then again, is that because he's playing a bad game or he's been unlucky? Surely he's been unlucky because the thought of it being a worse game doesn't even cross his mind.


Here's a better example -- video poker. Let's compare 9/6 DDB with 8/5 DDB. Surely you'd think 8/5 DDB is truly awful, you could totally notice, yada yada ya...not so fast!

Let's say someone plays $1 denom, $5/spin, for 4000 spins. I'd say for an average recreational gambler, this would be about 8 hours of play. Over 4000 hands, he's expected to hit 46 flushes and 44 full houses. That's a total of 90*$5 = $450 in "missing" money he would have won had he been playing 9/6 instead of 8/5.

You see the problem, here? That's less than 2 'regular' four of a kinds. If he hits 2 extra 4oaks than expected then he made up that $450 loss and then some. If he hits an extra 2-4's no kicker he made up most of it. If he hits an extra 2-4's + kicker, Aces, AWAK, or RF, then he's made it back and then some.

3. Playing mistakes. If you play poorly on a bad paytable isn't as bad as playing poorly on a better paytable, in terms of how much EV you give up, relative to the HE with perfect play.

Lots of people hold a high pair over a two pair in DDB. That is going to cost the player more in a 9/6 game than in an 8/5 game. Holding 444 over 44466 in DDB is going to cost less on an 8/5 game than a 9/6 game. At some point, their poor strategy is actually correct for the game they're playing. For instance, in 7/5 or 8/5 BP you hold a FH over AAA, while in 6/5 BP you hold AAA over a FH.

With blackjack, it's kinda the same. If you're playing a game where you can only double 9-11, you literally can't mess up a soft double-down, because you just can't do it.




TLDR: The people visiting Las Vegas who might play for a few hours aren't going to notice the difference between 6:5 BJ and 3:2 BJ, or the difference between 9/6 DDB or 8/5 DDB. They play so poorly to begin with and are playing a game with high-enough variance, they aren't getting "slaughtered". They are still getting sheered, just at a faster and not necessarily at a noticeable rate.

From what I see, most of the blackjack players are simply killing time before they spend bodacious amounts of money on bottle service at the nite spot of their choice.
Vegas has adapted and is giving this generation what they want, just like they did for us and for our parents

Quote: 100xOdds

millennials better tippers?
Or do you have an idea why?

No definitely not millennials lol.

Hockey in Vegas has helped. Otherwise I don't know

Quote: GlenG

No definitely not millennials lol.

Hockey in Vegas has helped. Otherwise I don't know

Better economy, low gas prices, booming stock market, low interest rates, low unemployment.

People always play more and tip better during good times.

Millennials are not a big factor in gaming in general. Sure there are some.. The money is with the 40 -70 age range.


ZCore13

Quote: billryan

From what I see, most of the blackjack players are simply killing time before they spend bodacious amounts of money on bottle service at the nite spot of their choice.
Vegas has adapted and is giving this generation what they want, just like they did for us and for our parents

Hear! Hear!
The gourmet restaurants, shows, nightclubs, etc. has turned the former gamblers into mere dabblers. I do not want to say there is no longer any serious gambling going on but a good deal of it seems to be minor dabbling. A trip to Vegas is sort of similar to the famed Los Angeles experience of a trip to a trendy restaurant to see "The Beautiful People". Now its a trip to Vegas to indulge their "Beautiful Selves" amidst Luxurious Splendor, Chic Restaurants with famous Chefs, Exotic twenty dollar cocktails, and some group gambling after the show is over and everyone staggers into the casino.

So the only real "gamblers" left in town are at the Locals casinos where demographics provides a cap on gambling activity and Time At Table is limited by the battery charge of the mobility cart.

The "real gamblers" are at nearby casinos where its "Vegas" style this and Vegas style that and there is no need to go get groped at the airport first.

A large percentage of the sheep got smarter.

Some, such as myself, no longer gamble as games to our liking disappear. Other survivors, such as Mrs. Chips, realize gaming has changed as to almost never result in a winning trip. For the most part she now sees time on the machines as entertainment you pay for. Always.

There are no more winning trips. When the trip’s bankroll is gone, the gaming is done. Years ago the idea of refreshing that bankroll for a slim shot at turning luck around, while not a wise idea, was considered. No longer: that idea is now just flat out stupid.

What has driven casinos to make these changes? The same things that drive gamblers: greed and stupidity. Soon there will be six casinos in our trip range instead of the just two there were eight years ago. I expect there will be a reckoning as there are a finite number of sheep to sheer. Or slaughter. Like gamblers, the greedy and stupid will disappear. Then again, with state involvement they could just wither to become a blight.

Benny Binion gave gamblers a square meal and a square deal. He was famous for staking people and for having at his dice tables others who were well known for staking someone whose chip stack had gotten too close to the felt. In those days people knew what they were doing, never welshed, and were allowed to have their fun even if it meant the house occasionally took a beating. Winning was not an illusion. Sure he hired attractive women as blackjack dealers but he had attractive rules also. When a security guard brought him two dice dealers who had been caught smoking pot in the dealer's break room, Benny Binion berated the security guard and told him to stay out of the dealer's break room. Binion's goal was to see that his employees had fun as well as his customers. There was no penny pinching attitudes in his joint.

But as was said "greed and stupidity" changed things. Del Lago in NY was denied a state bailout. Perhaps that was wise, perhaps not but the pressure in on the entire industry not just the sheep.

Quote: FleaStiff

Benny Binion gave gamblers a square meal and a square deal. He was famous for staking people and for having at his dice tables others who were well known for staking someone whose chip stack had gotten too close to the felt. In those days people knew what they were doing, never welshed, and were allowed to have their fun even if it meant the house occasionally took a beating. Winning was not an illusion. Sure he hired attractive women as blackjack dealers but he had attractive rules also. When a security guard brought him two dice dealers who had been caught smoking pot in the dealer's break room, Benny Binion berated the security guard and told him to stay out of the dealer's break room. Binion's goal was to see that his employees had fun as well as his customers. There was no penny pinching attitudes in his joint.

But as was said "greed and stupidity" changed things. Del Lago in NY was denied a state bailout. Perhaps that was wise, perhaps not but the pressure in on the entire industry not just the sheep.

40 years from now people are going to be claiming Caesars Entertainment gave them a fair deal.

Quote: AxelWolf

40 years from now people are going to be claiming Caesars Entertainment gave them a fair deal.

there's no way I can concur when cigarettes are $16. Everything is marked up too much.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

there's no way I can concur when cigarettes are $16. Everything is marked up too much.

$16 is cheap compared to Canada lol.
I just bought 8 packs in Laos to take home to my cousin for $3 American lol. So just under 40 cents for each pack.

Quote: PokerGrinder

$16 is cheap compared to Canada lol.
I just bought 8 packs in Laos to take home to my cousin for $3 American lol. So just under 40 cents for each pack.

Everything is cheap in the Orient, including life.
After you give your cousin those forty cent a pack cigarettes what will his visit to an emphysema specialist cost? Oh yea, that's right, Canada has free health care.

Quote: FleaStiff

Everything is cheap in the Orient, including life.
After you give your cousin those forty cent a pack cigarettes what will his visit to an emphysema specialist cost? Oh yea, that's right, Canada has free health care.

My sister said the same thing to me today. My opinion is that he’s going to smoke whether I bring them back or not, so why shouldn’t he save $80. Also he’s a barber and I get a free haircut out of it so that means it’s good for me too lol.

Quote: PokerGrinder

$16 is cheap compared to Canada lol.
I just bought 8 packs in Laos to take home to my cousin for $3 American lol. So just under 40 cents for each pack.

I always get this odd feeling when I see someone give cigarettes as a gift. You’re right though , he would buy them anyway.

Strangely, I don’t get the same feeling when I see alcohol given as a gift.

Quote: michael99000

I always get this odd feeling when I see someone give cigarettes as a gift. You’re right though , he would buy them anyway.

Strangely, I don’t get the same feeling when I see alcohol given as a gift.

I agree. I never would think to bring them for him but he asks me to, so I do.