Slots Are For Morons

Want to read what the casinos have done to slots lately?

http://gaming.unlv.edu/papers/cgr_op01_schwartz.pdf

Its amazing. Slot hold on the Strip is now over 7% on average. In the Indian casinos too. No wonder my wife never wins anymore. She usually won every other trip, she never got ahead, but she had fun. She hasn't had a winning session in a year and a half. Read what it does to the player when the hold goes from 5.5 to 7%. Incredible.

EvenBob

Look on the bright side if you are a table game player, the slot players keep the doors open and then some. Nobody is winning playing slots, what they have done is to have more small pay-outs and no jack-pots. The players just sit there giving everything back, when they hit the small wins!

I have it on good knowledge that a company that owns alot of properties on the Strip penny games are set at close to a 25% hold...

Erm...

"Instead, the key factors influencing the rise of slot hold are mostly likely the widespread adoption of convenience‐enhancing and game‐speeding technologies and a shift in player preference towards lower‐denomination, higher‐hold machines. In the end, those most responsible or rising hold percentages are the players themselves."

Does that not tend to suggest that the casinos are putting in machines that the players prefer... and it's the slot players who've pushed this change, not the casinos?

That's the conclusion of the paper anyways.

Well one of my reps has told me that this "strip company" said..If they ( tourists) are playing high hold machines at the Native American Casinos near them they wont know the difference if we raise our hold% to match the Native American Casinos...

Quote: pacman720

Well one of my reps has told me that this "strip company" said..If they ( tourists) are playing high hold machines at the Native American Casinos near them they wont know the difference if we raise our hold% to match the Native American Casinos...

That rep probably doesn't understand people's motivations to go to Vegas then...

Quote: pacman720

I have it on good knowledge that a company that owns alot of properties on the Strip penny games are set at close to a 25% hold...

I would bet you were given inaccurate information. Any casino that has 25% hold games might as well just put someone at the door with a gun and take customers money. You're going to get about the same number of repeat customers anyway.

Mark

Quote: thecesspit

the key factors influencing the rise of slot hold are widespread adoption of game‐speeding technologies and a shift in player preference towards lower‐denomination, higher‐hold machines. those most responsible for rising hold percentages are the players themselves."

Well, dubbing something a "penny" machine instead of a "higher-hold penny machine" might be a tad bit deceptive and is really a casino action, not a player action, but in general I do agree that its the speed of the game and the use of TITO equipment rather than some nefarious secret scheme.

Quote: evenbob

Its amazing. Slot hold on the Strip is now over 7% on average ... Read what it does to the player when the hold goes from 5.5 to 7%...

Quote: pacomartin

Well one of my reps has told me that this "strip company" said..If they ( tourists) are playing high hold machines at the Native American Casinos near them they wont know the difference if we raise our hold% to match the Native American Casinos...

Quote: marksolberg

Any casino that has 25% hold games might as well just put someone at the door with a gun and take customers money. You're going to get about the same number of repeat customers anyway.
Mark

There seems to be significant confusion about the meaning of "hold" here, versus the meaning of "house advantage."

drop = cash exchanged for chips or credits
win = amount casino wins from player
hold (or hold percentage) = win/drop (as a percent)

Typically blackjack holds about 10%-12% on the strip. Three Card Poker holds in the low 20% range.

For house advantage, blackjack comes in at under 1%, Three Card Poker just a tad over 3%. Slots often have a house edge between about 5% and 10%, though some are "loose" and pay back more than 95%. Some pay back in the high 80% range (especially low denomination games). The hold on slots is typically far higher than 10%.

You can adjust the house edge on a slot, but adjusting the "hold" is not possible -- it is not a feature that can be adjusted, it is a consequence.

You can read a lot of details here:

NV Quarterly Revenue Reports

--Dorothy

The latest gaming revenue report shows that the most recent-month Strip penny games have a hold of 10.42%, with a ttm of 11.57%. In other words, either there were a few big wins recently or penny slots are getting looser.

http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/1g_10jul.pdf


As to the distinction between hold% and house edge, remember that slot games and table games have different accounting. Tables can never accurately calculate handle -- only drop. When a blackjack table "holds" 15%, that means the win was 15% of the amount in the drop box, not 15% of the total amount wagered. Slot machine games *do* accurately calculate handle, a.k.a. coin-in, and the win% there is a direct reflection of the house edge * total wager. In other words, the win% for slots is equivalent to the house edge or RTP, while the win% for table games is a multiple of the house edge based on how many times the players re-bet their buyins.

Quote: DorothyGale

There seems to be significant confusion about the meaning of "hold" here, versus the meaning of "house advantage."

drop = cash exchanged for chips or credits
win = amount casino wins from player
hold (or hold percentage) = win/drop (as a percent)

Typically blackjack holds about 10%-12% on the strip. Three Card Poker holds in the low 20% range.

For house advantage, blackjack comes in at under 1%, Three Card Poker just a tad over 3%. Slots often have a house edge between about 5% and 10%, though some are "loose" and pay back more than 95%. Some pay back in the high 80% range (especially low denomination games). The hold on slots is typically far higher than 10%. You can read a lot of details here:

NV Quarterly Revenue Reports

--Dorothy

By hold I am referring to a slot machines theoretical hold as reflected in it's par sheet. It would be the equivalent of house advantage of a table game. I've never felt table hold % is a very number because it can be skewed by non-gaming activity.

Mark

In which case, some of the information in the paper is not logical, as how I put my money in doesn't affect the house advantage of the machine. It does change how often I press the button to play and how quickly I can cycle my money through.

I'd have thought the second number matter much more to the casino... what percentage of the players money do I keep (or better yet, what does this machine earn per hour). Everything else matters very little... as long as the machine makes $X per hour then that's all that matters. If a machine has a HA of 25% but only earns $50/hour, while another machine earns $250 with a HA of 98% you'd think the second would be the machine to use...

Quote: thecesspit

In which case, some of the information in the paper is not logical, as how I put my money in doesn't affect the house advantage of the machine. It does change how often I press the button to play and how quickly I can cycle my money through.

I'd have thought the second number matter much more to the casino... what percentage of the players money do I keep (or better yet, what does this machine earn per hour). Everything else matters very little... as long as the machine makes $X per hour then that's all that matters. If a machine has a HA of 25% but only earns $50/hour, while another machine earns $250 with a HA of 98% you'd think the second would be the machine to use...

Lets look at the bottom line. He says in the article that not that long ago a person could play for 4 hours on $100 and now its what, 1 hour on $100? Thats a striking difference and its what effects the player the most. The casino just figured the player would dig for more money and its not working out that way.

But what are morons for?

Quote: Nareed

But what are morons for?

Its turing out there aren't as many morons as they were hoping for.