Is Elon Musk today's Bernie Madoff?
The world has evolved while still dealing with scam artists, which one is he?
I see him like this carpet cleaning guy from 30 years ago on a larger scale.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Minkow
If you are looking to compare him to someone, try Nikola Tesla himself.
Time will tell if these enterprises have a long history or fizzle. But, this is no Ponzi scheme. He builds things.
Quote: billryanI do, for one. He has made me tens of thousands of dollars .Could have been hundreds of thousands but I sold my Tesla stock when it hit certain benchmarks. Half at $50, then half at $80 , then half at $120 and the rest at $200. Anyone who believed in his vision from the getgo has done very well.
If you are looking to compare him to someone, try Nikola Tesla himself.
Yes many have done good on the stock, as did early investors with Bernie. But his companies have never made $1 profit, which was my point. Time will tell.
Quote: billryanI do, for one. He has made me tens of thousands of dollars .Could have been hundreds of thousands but I sold my Tesla stock when it hit certain benchmarks. Half at $50, then half at $80 , then half at $120 and the rest at $200. Anyone who believed in his vision from the getgo has done very well.
If you are looking to compare him to someone, try Nikola Tesla himself.
I, for two. He's thinking big and different, and well ahead of his time. He's not really a specialist in any one discipline. He just asks himself, "where could we be in 100 years, or 200, and what goals should we set to get there?" And then he finds people who have pieces of possible answers and sets them to work.
It's a better world with him in it. We need visionaries. Maybe he doesn't see a dime in his lifetime, but I bet in 100 years, when we're routinely on Mars and living in space, on underground super trains, in solar-electric driverless cars, those alive will revere him.
It's an absolutely absurd comparison.
Quote: BozYes many have done good on the stock, as did early investors with Bernie. But his companies have never made $1 profit, which was my point. Time will tell.
Paypal never made money?
Quote: BozBut his companies have never made $1 profit, which was my point. Time will tell.
That's not unique to Madoff or Musk.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/10/30/big-companies-without-profits-amazon-twitter-uber-and-other-big-names-that-dont.html
http://business.time.com/2013/10/29/these-8-internet-companies-are-worth-over-1-billion-but-they-havent-made-a-dime/
I think a few of these are outdated in that they are now making a profit, but the point is it's not unusual for a gigantic company to not be "making any money."
Lose money on every sale, but make it up with volume.
Amazon bled money for years, and Netfflix, Uber and Lyft are doing so now.
People who live in lands of make believe hate it when someone does that.
I've noticed many on the left dislike him too. Mainly because he is rich, I'd guess. And they resent private approaches to these problems.
I don't know much about him. But even if his ideas are bad it seems like he believes in them.
Quote: BozToday this guy who has never made $1 says he is building an Underground Railroad along the East Coast. Considering he wants to go to space, sell electric cars and save the world, who actually believes him?
The world has evolved while still dealing with scam artists, which one is he?
I see him like this carpet cleaning guy from 30 years ago on a larger scale.
That’s a wrong question or wrong comparison.
Elon Musk revived the electric car business where GM, Ford, Chryster, Toyota, BMW and other auto manufacturers before him had failed to do. Other auto manufacturers are also facing difficulties in marketing and production of electric cars, and in competing with Musk’s Tesla.
Musk’s SpaceX success in reusable rocket technology had renewed concept and encourage competition in this area.
https://airbusdefenceandspace.com/reuse-launchers/
Musk’s hyperloop concept is still in early stage, but his involvement in this technology had promoted competition and innovation.
All the aforementioned technologies are both financially and technologically risky. It is common for technology startup to invest heavily in R&D early on and scarify short term profit for long term success potential. And Musk may not be able to deliver profit to his investors now, but he is not scam artist.
I don’t think it is fair to compare Musk to Maddoff, so let me turn the question around and ask you this: IS JOHN MILLER TODAY'S BERNIE MADOFF?
Considering John Miller's many lies & cheatings, and shady business practices, I see John Miller as disgrace person today and everyday, and he is 1000 times worse than Madoff.
Quote: billryanMusk has employed thousands of people, most of them in well paying jobs. To compare him to Bernie Madoff is ludicrous. Sounds like something Limbaugh or Hannity would do.
I wasn't thinking along those lines as a political matter, but I would be proud to be compared to those 2. Both of whom I assume are making large amounts of money and paying taxes on it to allow new business startups to get government funds.
Every bull market has a scammer. Last one was Bernie Madoff, this time it is Elon Musk. When this bull market turns south, I suspect Elon will be exposed and Tesla stock will crash below $50/share.
Quote: black2I believe he is a con man. All of his grand ideas are just an illusion to try to prevent investors from unraveling the scam.
What is the "scam" though? Elon Musk is actually inventing things and accomplishing things and building companies and putting his money where his mouth is.
But as long as investors know what they're getting into it's not a scam. Any new tech, or just something that hasn't been done, is virtually high risk I would say.
Madoffs returns were work of fiction. Musks companies are public and the public has set their value.
I question the financial knowledge of anyone who can't see the difference between the two.
I would agree Tesla stock is extremely overvalued, but that's because the public is willing to pay for it, not because Musk is claiming fictional returns.
A few months ago I had a buy order out at $200 because it was in a dip. Last I checked it was $330. Musk could profit by splitting the shares. A 3 for one split would bring the stock down to about $100, making it more accessible to buyers, but price isn't what he dwells on.
This is what has me questioning him. He hates traffic so now he says he has approval for this idea. I question why anyone would use twitter to try and get this message out there when it isn't true.
Twitter?? Who does he think he is?
We have heard ideas of a high speed train-tube-whatever from LA to LV for years. If someone could make it happen, they would have a hit on their hands. Imagine how many people would come for the weekend if they could do it in less than 2 hours without the traffic.
Quote: sabreRunning a business with a net operating loss because you're plowing money into expansion (home Depot) or r&d (Tesla) isn't in the same league as stealing and lying about investing it. It's not even the same game. Nor played on the same planet. Nor universe.
It's an absolutely absurd comparison.
Perhaps, but what is absurd is a company that sold 80,000 vehicles last year and lost $773M is worth more than the company who who sold 10,000,000 vehicles and made $12B in profit.
OK I'll admit, I'm biased. I sell Chevy's for a living. Tesla gets a free pass on everything. They're the only company that measures their results by how many people have put down a $1000 deposit to buy a car that won't be made for a year or two. Deposits are meaningless. I'm sure over half of those will cancel. The Chevy Volt is a completely revolutionary car unlike anything that has been built in over 100 years of selling cars. It's a practical car that the average person can afford. It has gotten absolutely no respect. It's been continuously villainized by right wing haters. Meanwhile Telsa sells $100k cars to rich greenies and they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Quote: TigerWuFor some reasons Americans just hate high-speed rail. I don't get it. It would be a boon for the economy. First of all, you would have all those jobs just building the system, and then all the jobs created by a brand new industry.
I don't believe that Americans hate high speed rail, they just don't want to pay for the infrastructure. If a business believed it would be profitable they would build it. When it is available and costs less than air travel, and is faster than air travel the American public will be all over it.
Jobs schmobs. As with the Raiders retardation, just put 3 seconds of thought into those dollar amounts. Just for example you could give out 2,000 million dollar small business loans interest free and have everyone default. You could give 20,000 college scholarships of 100 K. No, let's build a dumb train nobody will use. It should finish just around the time self driving, electric cars are the norm.
I know politicians want it because it would be a vehicle for graft. But I don't know why anyone else would.
But there aren't many major routes that would be worth it. The NE corridor is one.
I don't know if high speed rail extended to Atlanta (Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte) would be profitable.
I look at the nation and I think about other routes spanning major corridors (Detroit / Chicago / St. Louis / Kansas City, Dallas / Houston, Vancouver / Seattle / Portland, Miami / Orlando / Tampa) and I don't see anything that pops up.
Quote: Rigondeaux. No, let's build a dumb train nobody will use. It should finish just around the time self driving, electric cars are the norm.
I know politicians want it because it would be a vehicle for graft. But I don't know why anyone else would.
I live mid-Florida, but would happily take a train car to Biloxi - and sleep or lounge as I desire rather than drive or fly.
If it existed.
Of course, I envision a nice lounge car to sit in having lunch, for a hour or two. Probably just my imagination that it might be preferable.
Quote: SandybestdogPerhaps, but what is absurd is a company that sold 80,000 vehicles last year and lost $773M is worth more than the company who who sold 10,000,000 vehicles and made $12B in profit.
OK I'll admit, I'm biased. I sell Chevy's for a living. Tesla gets a free pass on everything. They're the only company that measures their results by how many people have put down a $1000 deposit to buy a car that won't be made for a year or two. Deposits are meaningless. I'm sure over half of those will cancel. The Chevy Volt is a completely revolutionary car unlike anything that has been built in over 100 years of selling cars. It's a practical car that the average person can afford. It has gotten absolutely no respect. It's been continuously villainized by right wing haters. Meanwhile Telsa sells $100k cars to rich greenies and they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I agree Tesla is overvalued, but it's worth is determined by the free market. People look at the future of GM and Tesla and think Tesla has the brighter one. I love Tesla, have a deposit on a car but don't own any stock. I'm not crazy about GM, own some stock in it and it was up about 20% last I looked. My understanding is that the first generation Volt was released prematurely and had a number of problems, but the new generation is a pretty good car. It might be comparable to the Tesla 3. Time will tell.
I hope it succeeds and my stock takes another jump.
Quote: SandybestdogOK I'll admit, I'm biased. I sell Chevy's for a living...
The Chevy Volt is a completely revolutionary car unlike anything that has been built in over 100 years of selling cars.
But can you explain how they get a 12.5:1 comp ratio to run properly on pump gas? Asking for a friend...
It used to, until Katrina. Now the route's eastern terminus is New Orleans. I took the Sunset Limited from Jacksonville to Biloxi once. It was indeed a relaxing way to go, but it took about 11 hours vs. a 7 hr drive. The schedule was perfect for me. It left in the evening and got to Biloxi about daybreak.Quote: rxwineI live mid-Florida, but would happily take a train car to Biloxi - and sleep or lounge as I desire rather than drive or fly.
If it existed.
It depends on the person. I love train travel, but Mrs. Joeman gives it a "Meh." You should give it a try and see if it lives up to your imagination!Quote:Of course, I envision a nice lounge car to sit in having lunch, for a hour or two. Probably just my imagination that it might be preferable.
As I had a VW Rabbit, it cost me more to take the train than gas and tolls would have. When I drove home, I generally had two or three people to split the cost. Nothing romantic about the train. I think it was called The Lake Shore Limited. It ran from Chicago to NY. Coming down the Hudson was scenic, but way too many two or three minute stops, plus in Albany, they split the train up. some cars went east to Boston, some north to Montreal and some south to NY. That stop was about an hour.
That's possible, he totally screwed over his wife big time. It's been awhile since I heard her story, but he lied and misrepresented things to her, just to dump her like hot worthless, garbage after years of marriage. She trusted him and got quite burned.Quote: black2I believe he is a con man. All of his grand ideas are just an illusion to try to prevent investors from unraveling the scam. Anytime someone questions his integrity or his businesses, he will tweet out a new venture he is working on. All part of the confidence scam.
Every bull market has a scammer. Last one was Bernie Madoff, this time it is Elon Musk. When this bull market turns south, I suspect Elon will be exposed and Tesla stock will crash below $50/share.
Added:
divorce in her words
Driving wise, I once left home at noon and was in my dorm for a 6:18 kickoff of the Raiders- Eagles Superbowl.
Most times took closer to eight hours. A lot depended on the route and what time you hit the city. The Route from Rochester to Binghamton didn't exist back then. You had to take the Thruway to Syracuse and then generally 81 to 80, occasionally to 17 instead of 80.
However, if the public has to pay 15 or 20 billion, then pay more to use it than to fly, and subsidize its operation, no dice.
There used to be a ghost fleet of mothballed navy ships that was amazing, but it is long gone.
In the fall, with the foliage exploding with multicolors , it's mesmerizing.
The first time I took the train from NY to DC, I was thrilled. A dozen trips later ,not so much. On Long Island, most people that work in Manhattan commute by train so its no thrill.
As for Elon... he does have some unique ideas. The train tube looks fine until digging in wet mountains/hills (for a hint look at Railroad tunnel construction). That problem alone can and will alter aquifer tables and levels, bringing a much higher expected price. Needless to say two more words "fault lines". Sometimes only a fool can go where fools dare. But hey, SpaceX and Tesla are sure winners. All that stands in his way is a Tesla dealership (no direct sales for autos). Now THAT is getting foolish (Law requiring a dealership to sell cars). But the one remaining question, " Will Elon EVER improve the practical at a low cost?" seems to have a "No" answer as he built a Tesla sport/luxury coupe rather than a crossover grocery-hauler/soccer-mom type.
FWLIW
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/tech/gallery/japan-future-tech/index.html
Quote: FaceBut can you explain how they get a 12.5:1 comp ratio to run properly on pump gas? Asking for a friend...
Sorry, I have no idea what that means.
Quote: billryanI agree Tesla is overvalued, but it's worth is determined by the free market. People look at the future of GM and Tesla and think Tesla has the brighter one. I love Tesla, have a deposit on a car but don't own any stock. I'm not crazy about GM, own some stock in it and it was up about 20% last I looked. My understanding is that the first generation Volt was released prematurely and had a number of problems, but the new generation is a pretty good car. It might be comparable to the Tesla 3. Time will tell.
I hope it succeeds and my stock takes another jump.
See that's the problem. Where did you hear that the 2011 was released prematurely and had problems? The 2011's were basically the same thing through 2015. Very minor changes. There were no major problems and no major recalls. They are still on the road today with 100 and 200k miles on them and there has been no significant loss in battery life (GM expects about a 20% loss after 100k miles). The 2017 is still the same basic car but with a better performing gas engine and enhanced battery and redesigned exterior.
When a Volt catches fire 3 weeks after being severely crash tested, then rolled over several times then placed out back by the NHTSA without following standard procedures, it creates national headlines, numerous investigations, and the CEO is dragged before Congress. Yet when 3 different Tesla's in real world driving merely run over road debris that actually directly puncture the battery casing, the government almost instantly clears them and it makes almost no headlines whatsoever.
BTW, the Volt is nothing like the Tesla 3. They operate differently. The Tesla 3 is more comparable to the recently released Bolt. When the Bolt came out I saw that it won car of the year. I thought to myself, of course it won green car of the year, it's a new model, the new ones always do. Then I reread the headline. Oh it wasn't green car of the year. It was just car of the year. It beat everything, yet the only thing people want to talk about is the Tesla. Again, they get a free pass on everything. Meanwhile all the other car company's actually have to make affordable and quality cars and after that, they actually have to sell them, not just take deposits.
Quote: SandybestdogSee that's the problem. Where did you hear that the 2011 was released prematurely and had problems? The 2011's were basically the same thing through 2015. Very minor changes. There were no major problems and no major recalls. They are still on the road today with 100 and 200k miles on them and there has been no significant loss in battery life (GM expects about a 20% loss after 100k miles). The 2017 is still the same basic car but with a better performing gas engine and enhanced battery and redesigned exterior.
When a Volt catches fire 3 weeks after being severely crash tested, then rolled over several times then placed out back by the NHTSA without following standard procedures, it creates national headlines, numerous investigations, and the CEO is dragged before Congress. Yet when 3 different Tesla's in real world driving merely run over road debris that actually directly puncture the battery casing, the government almost instantly clears them and it makes almost no headlines whatsoever.
BTW, the Volt is nothing like the Tesla 3. They operate differently. The Tesla 3 is more comparable to the recently released Bolt. When the Bolt came out I saw that it won car of the year. I thought to myself, of course it won green car of the year, it's a new model, the new ones always do. Then I reread the headline. Oh it wasn't green car of the year. It was just car of the year. It beat everything, yet the only thing people want to talk about is the Tesla. Again, they get a free pass on everything. Meanwhile all the other car company's actually have to make affordable and quality cars and after that, they actually have to sell them, not just take deposits.
Your analysis is biased of course. The Tesla S was the world's first marketable electric car that forced other model makers to jump on board, and their offerings including the Volt paled in comparison. With the 3 coming out, it essentially became a force for other companies to compete, and they will. Hopefully the Bolt as they gain a reputation will take some of those pre-orders away. Now, their service is sh*t and if you need parts, apparently, good luck -- weeks / months of wait time for generic parts, price gouging at their repair centers - not the way to provide customer service after a sale.
I think the turning point for electric cars are a few years away with a true infrastructure of fast charging stations where a 30 minute lunch stop would result in an 80% charge. And a 350+ mile range that will allow road trippers to do cross country trips without having to think about spending an evening charging. Families with a commuter vehicle and a 2nd long range vehicle might go for an EV.
I'm planning an EV purchase in 2020 or 2021. By that time there will be lots of competition, infrastructure, and longevity. All major car companies will offer a competitive product and like me checking out an Altima, a Mazda 6, a Sonata, a Camry, a Fusion, and an Accord, I hope that all majors will have several EV products to choose from. By 2020 I imagine all will have 2 or 3, by 2025, I imagine electrics being as mainstream options, especially in urban centers. But frankly I don't see gas going away unless it is legislated out of existence and there are far too many interests to do that.
Besides anyone that designs a car with "Ludicrous Speed" can't be all bad...
just don't go plaid. ;oP
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Hyperlink is fine but boring has been booming, particularly micro boring in urban areas. Boring out in the middle of the Mojave desert is cheap and easy. Try it in urban areas with buildings and underground utilities, streams, etc.
