Playing with the casinos money

The whole "it was their money" is a way bitter people try and lighten their frustration over losing. "Ohwell it was their money anyway" is 100% bull. Once it's yours to leave with, it's not their anymore -.-

Holy Sh*t.......I can't believe this thread is still alive.......

Playing with casino`s money:

Go to page 147 of this 100 year old book by V.B.
http://www.archive.org/stream/montecarloanecdo00bethiala#page/146/mode/2up

WASHOO2
HAPPY WINNINGS!!!

Wait.....dont I know you? lol Ken

Mosca

Excellent point, I just find it hard to believe that anybody can enjoy losing money.
Now if that is what turns you on, more power to you, if you are having fun with it, thanks a lot, without players like you the casinos might not be open!

Quote: Mosca

That is my entire point, in a nutshell: If that's what you like, then that's what you should do. No one is getting murdered, no harm is being done. Some folks are pulling cards and rolling dice and spinning wheels. Each individual is free to understand the risks and take the chances as he/she sees fit. Since we are different people, we will get excited by different aspects of these games. What's right for me won't be right for you.

You know that I just find it hard to believe, that players would come to a site like this, and then say they are having fun losing!
The one thing I do see all the time is that most players of craps play for the social expect of the game. They feel good that everybody knows then when they walk-up to the tables.
The drink girls offer them free drinks they know them by their names if they play a lot in that casino. All the dealer do there job and makes them feel like they are having the time of their life, playing craps!

You could say it’s like going down to Cheers where everybody knows your name, the conversations are great, and you get to make friends. You have something to look forward to everyday that you go out and play!

My point of view is, I hate the casinos I only play for the money, yes I do have fun when I am winning, and on the other hand there is no enjoyment in losing for me!
I guess that I get most of my enjoyment out of finding how to win; it’s an on going process! Most players will never put the time into the game that I do, for them it’s playing a few times a year, and they can say they had a good time ether way win or lose.

When I started out playing craps, I wanted to win, most players do, and then just write it off to having a good time when they did play and lost. After all you didn’t know anything about the game so you didn’t mind the losing so bad!

I guess that I soon realized that if I wanted to continue to play I would have to learn something about the game, maybe because I didn’t have unlimited funds. The same thing goes for living in Vegas, if you going to play you better learn what you are doing or someone else will own your home and everything else you worked for all your life, it does happen all the time out here!

Thanks for your continuing support, we need players like you in Vegas, with the way this economy is here!
I just hope that you do win some of the times, to keep you coming back and having fun!
And that you can also find something on this board that will help you accomplish that.

LOL superrick

superrick,
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and respond, with the hope that you are not just trolling. I am not speaking for Mosca, but I think he and I share a similiar view of craps play.

Do I enjoy losing money? Of course not. However, when I go to a casino, it involves a plane flight and a weekend stay at minimum. If I spend the 6 hours to go to Vegas, it will be a minimum of 4 days.
So, point number 1, I am taking the trip so I can enjoy playing craps. If I get there, cash $1000, and get a great roll that results in me up $2000 after 40 minutes, am I supposed to quit? Sure, I am up $2000, but what do I do with the remaining 2, or 3, or 4 days? If you are going to allow me to play again tomorrow, then why can't I continue to play right now? Time has no reference to the craps play. The house has the same edge now, as they will tomorrow. Therefore, there is no point in stopping today, IF I am going to play again anytime in the future. In fact, those who believe in periods of luck would say I should ride the good fortune while I have it.

Assuming you make the same bet, does the house edge ever change based on the day or time? Of course not.
If I play from noon to 12:30 every day for 8 days, is that any different than playing from 8:00 to 12:00 today only? Of course not. Both ways I have played for 4 hours against a constant house edge.

So, I am on a trip to play craps. I enjoy playing for an average of 6 hours a day. How do you suggest I play so I can enjoy the game of craps AND come out a winner ?

superrick,

LOL. I actually understand your puzzlement. I don't like losing; I like playing, and losing is often a dimension of that. I accept losing.

What I actually wrote was that sometimes losing is preferable to breaking even, in that breaking even could represent chances untaken. But like I also said: I don't stress it. If I'm even, and feel sated, I stop. If I'm even and feel like continuing, I do. I'm fine with people who play differently. I just can't play that way myself, just like you can't play my way. Neither of us would enjoy the change.

If I had any motive for writing what I do, it would be to help remove the value judgments we place on players who are wired differently. If I were to toss around chips like they were circus peanuts, then bitch when I lost, you'd have a point; but those of us who play and smile, regardless of the results, deserve respect I think.

I am still playing my first session of blackjack. It began decades ago and I have taken numerous breaks, some for a few minutes and some for a week or more. I am currently on a two day break.

There are a few reasons for me to stop playing, but whether I'm winning or losing is not one of them. If you stop and then return at a later date, have you really stopped?

Quitting while ahead is meaningless to me unless I plan on never playing again.

RaleighCraps

Look, I am a real live craps player, and I do live in Vegas; I play craps just about everyday. There are a lot of craps players on the different craps boards that have seen me play! I sometimes will even meet-up with some of the guys that I have met on the tables around town!

Quote: RaleighCraps

superrick,

If I get there, cash $1000, and get a great roll that results in me up $2000 after 40 minutes, am I supposed to quit? Sure, I am up $2000, but what do I do with the remaining 2, or 3, or 4 days?

No you do not quit, what you do then is go into money management. You just go lucky and made the $1000, you had $1000 to start with, why not cut your win in half.
You know have a $500 bank roll, now is when you start playing smarter to make your bank roll last the rest of the time you are here in Vegas.

The worst thing, you can do is put a lot of money back on the table right after your good roll, Put one bet back up and wait till you get paid off on your bet, before you put anymore money on the table. If you don’t shoot, you are looking for the trends of the table. The question you should be asking your self is, how rolls of the dice is everybody getting, are we seeing that everybody is having rolls in the teens, or are they all make 5 or 6 rolls of the dice before the seven comes.

Short rolls put the one or two bets on the table, and get them off the table when the shooter get pass 4 rolls of the dice, longer rolls keep them up for 9 or 10 rolls of the dice, if you are in profit, regress your bets down to single unit bets and then ride the wave, as long as you feel comfortable.

What you are looking for now is to get your bets paid for, and then you can do anything you want to. There are trends to every table, some time nobody will make any points, three rolls of the dice and its next shooter please!

Playing craps is a mind game; where you have to know where you are, winning or losing with every roll of the dice, don’t risk what you just won on the next roll of the dice!
When you are pressing up your bets never do full presses always take some money off the table!
Anybody can get on a roll, and I do mean anybody! They don’t have be a So-Called DI, just look at the 154 roll in AC.

If you win this session, what ever your win was cut it in half again, put one half in your pocket; add the rest to your back roll. If you start to lose walk away, don’t go back into what you started out with today! You have four more days to play, go out and see what else Vegas has to offer if you have a car, you do not have to spend 24 hours a day at the tables!

Hell if you are here with the wife, girlfriend or boyfriend or family they might even appreciate it, that you are spending time with them!

The one thing that most players will never do is to cut their bets down when they are winning, but if you do that you can play longer session’s everyday, once you start getting paid off you press-up your bets! That is one of the tricks to winning over the long run, you will still be there so you can take advantage of a big roll when it’s happening, and not standing there wishing that you didn’t blow your bank roll before the roll happened!

I have a player that comes into town about 6 to 8 time over the year, and does well just about every time he comes to town, if he starts to lose at one casino he will walk across the street, till he finds a table that everybody is winning on.

He looks for the table trends that are winning for everybody, and has no problem playing the dark side of the tables if he can’t find anything happening that he likes the looks of!

Look for the trends and you can do OK! Do not stay and lose just for the sake of playing, move on to the next table!

Quote: Ericayne

Holy Sh*t.......I can't believe this thread is still alive.......

Don't encourage him.

Congratulations. You are one of the very few people who realize that it's all one long session. Stopping at some arbitrary point and assessing your results is meaningless, unless you never, ever plan to gamble again.

Therefore, the posters who say you should "quit while you're ahead" are missing the point. The only way that phrase would have meaning is if you inserted the word "forever" after "quit".

superrick,
So you are a proponent of money management, and thus we are in agreement.

However, the concept of betting bigger with the winners, and minimum betting with the losers is not possible. I agree with the concept, but you have no way of knowing ahead of time which one is going to be the good roll. Take my last day at Paris. Only one point made in one trip around a full table. Most shooters lasted about 4 rolls. Pretty much a definition of a cold table. I usually have decent rolls, and my last 2 rolls both were PSO, ( I should say POS). Dice go to other end of table and shooter makes 6 points, 5 on the fire bet. Next shooter out in 5 rolls. Next shooter makes 6 points, 4 to the fire bet. Both of these guys had done zippo in their previous 2 rolls. I should have made a killing, but since I was low in bankroll I only made a little instead of a lot. Missing out on the $3k I should have made on those 2 hot rolls meant I ended Paris with a loss. That is the one thing I have noticed on my trips. EVERY trip I have been on, there has always been at least a couple of great rolls. The trips I made money on, I was playing heavy at the time of the roll, usually because I had just arrived, or because I was on house money. The trips I have lost money on have happened because the big roll came along, and I was betting light and only made $200, instead of the $1500 I should have made.

I guess you are saying this is exactly what your system is good for. You only make a minimum bet, until the shooter has shown they can make a point, and then you start betting more. But how many times does a shooter make 1 point, but then goes PSO on the 2nd point? The concept of a hot shooter is not based in fact. Whether this is my first roll, or the 10th roll I have made, the odds are still the exact same, and my chance of throwing any number is the exact same now or 100 rolls from now. Therefore, any betting system that relies on past history is a flawed system.

Now, about that $1000 that I won. First, it was $1000 because after I won the first roll and was up $100 I didn't cut my bet in half and try to preserve a $50 win. I stepped on the gas and doubled my bet. Eureka, shooter makes point 2 and now I am up $300. Now I'm not a fool, so I don't double up again, but I do add a few more place bets, and eureka, shooter makes some place numbers and my point again. Now I'm up $500. Should I go into money management mode now? If I do, I don't get to the $1000 mark. All I am trying to point out here is there is no way to predict when I should slow down. I can only realize when I should have done it, after the fact.

Would you agree that the amount you can reasonably expect to win is predicated on the size of your buy-in? In other words, if you buy-in for $200, can you expect to win $1000? In my opinion, the answer is no. If you want a $1000 win, I feel you need to buy in with at least $1000. Doubling your money is a good deal. If you try and go beyond that, you risk giving back what you are ahead. Is that too aggressive? Should I be aiming to only win 50% of my buy-in?

Do you have a formula you use for your expected win amount?

And if a person does not have a 'formula', they cant/dont win? ROFL Ken

Quote: mrjjj

And if a person does not have a 'formula', they cant/dont win? ROFL Ken

Ken, I haven't taken part in any of your repartee, but my belief is, if that's what gives you pleasure while playing, then that's what you should do.

A couple things, I just got home from work; I couldn't respond when I wanted to, I was busy.

This is a math-intensive forum, but the way I've always thought is that Wizard of Odds is the math site, Wizard of Vegas is the gambling site. Math is important here. It should be. It HAS TO BE. You can't understand gambling without it. But for me, WoV is about the experience of wagering, in its full sensory, emotional, probability based entirety. You should be able to discuss it as a thing of itself, comprised of everything that makes it what it is. Not just the math, but the whole thing. ALL of it is important.

Of course I practice bankroll management. Needing to know how to do all this stuff is what brought me here, first to WoO and then, when it was hatched, here. The Ten Commandments of Gambling opened my eyes; they should be posted here, as a refresher:

Quote: Wizard of Odds

1: Thou shalt not cheat.

2: Thou shalt honor thy gambling debts.

3: Thou shalt expect to lose.

4: Thou shalt trust the odds, not hunches.

5: Thou shalt not overbet thy bankroll.

6: Thou shalt not believe in betting systems.

7: Thou shalt not hedge thy bets.

8: Thou shalt covet good rules.

9: Thou shalt not make side bets.

10: Thou shalt have good gambling etiquette.

Notice a few of them germane to the subject at hand:


3: Thou shalt expect to lose. Thank you. This saved me the frustration of wondering why... I usually lost.

4: Thou shalt trust the odds, not hunches. Not a problem! I believe that the faces of the cards do not exist until they are revealed. Since there are rules governing the relationship between wager and expected return, I should follow those, instead of trying to guess. That makes it easy.

5: Thou shalt not overbet they bankroll. Ahhhh. Money management. I was missing this one, way back then. Not that I was tossing blacks all over, but I was not thinking clearly about what I wanted from what I was doing. If I was going to drive three hours to Atlantic City with $300, it was not a good idea to start by dropping a hundo in the dollar Wheel of Fortune machine! Now I take enough to have fun, and I divide it into sessions, usually $500/session. If I tap out, I walk, until the next session. So, "Doing what I feel like doing" includes, in my case, feeling like making plans to keep from blowing everything up in an hour. I do NOT take markers, or loans. I hit the ATM to extend a session once; I felt like a loser, I've never done it since.

8: Thou shalt covet good rules. This makes sense, too. Why play a 00 wheel when you can play a 0 wheel? Why play 6-5 bj when you can play a 3-2 game? The game's the same, the thrill's the same; play the one that makes it last longer, because, well, see rule #3. But what if the casino with slightly worse rules is a lot closer? REMEMBER: LIFE IS A CLOSED SYSTEM. If the cost of time and travel is more than the difference in the odds, either play close to home or play a different game. Mt Airy pays 6-4 on Pairs+ at 3 Card; it is also an hour away, not a big deal at 3 in the afternoon, but absolutely a big deal at 12:30AM.


So, although I don't sweat a lot of the numbers, you can see I'm still very much a follower of The Wizard. I don't need to parse the little stuff; I need to have fun my own way, in my own head. So I follow The Ten Commandments of Gambling. I play square, I pay up without complaining, I play the games I enjoy under the best rules I can find, I trust the odds by not playing hunches, and above all, I am courteous to fellow gamblers and casino employees. Gambling is just part of life. It isn't life all by itself.

Mrs and I followed the commandments for our next few trips, and our money lasted longer and our trips were much more enjoyable; we still lost, but we understood what we were doing, and we didn't lose as much. We got player's cards and started working the comps, and after we figured the couple nights free lodging (The Trop in AC) and meals, we realized that we were getting some cheap getaways and getting some nice playing time, with of course the chance to go home winners. And sometimes that happened. And eventually I sent an email to Mr Shackleford, thanking him for putting all that information on the internet where I could find it. And in due time, he emailed me back that I was welcome. And there you have it.

But, yeah; if it's in your hand, regardless of where you are, it's your money. And yeah; as long as you are in the casino, it's their money. Think of it however you want to. Commandment #3 trumps it all.

"This is a math-intensive forum" >>> ? Ok, 2+2 is not 5 so that means shut down the site? lol Some of the *WORSE* gamblers (use whatever term you want) are the guys that are math NUTS. Anyday, I will listen first to the guy who goes through hundreds (if not thousands) of hours, TRIAL and ERROR. That guy has my FULL ATTENTION over the guy that can do a nifty 'equation'. lol Look at the one thread I started regarding, different HA for various games. Ok, 5.26% is higher than 1.7%, soooo you still lose in the END, sorry cupcake. One rule for all. oops I forgot. The AP (cough) guys will be pulling in all the cash. ROFL Ken

RaleighCraps

The game of craps never stops, and that goes for any casino game, they are open 24-7 you just slide in and out of the game. Hard concept for most players to grasp!
Your bank roll is what enables you to stay at the tables. A $10,000 buy in is the same as a $100 buy in if you broke in down in $500 dollars units.

If you were betting red you would have 20 units to bet with, the same thing goes for the $500 dollar chips. You are always up or down in units that you are betting.
There is no system that works all the time when playing craps, and no magic bullet that you can go out and buy, so save your money!

Never set what some would call a win limit,I have told players before to set a win limit, and was totally missed understood about the win limit. A win limit is something the is constantly changing, as you add profit to both your bank roll and your profit!
If no one knew me at the casino, my profit limit would be when they shut down the table, and told me that they were opening a different table. Then it’s time to say color me up please, and thank you very much, but my wife is waiting on me! The time I want to spend in any casino is only two hours at the most, but then I get to do this everyday!

When you are playing, and winning there are a few things that will help you to stay ahead
Add units to your profit, and at the same time to your shooting or playing bank roll. Once you bets have been paid off, press you bets at lease one unit with every hit, pulling profit with every hit. Never lock your self into a set betting plan, or this can happen to you. One of the guys called me today to tell me that he had a great day; the guy that was shooting had a 67 roll. This was at a local casino, both guys are retired.
The shooter only made $30 off his roll, as he always plays the same way, he will take one or two pays and come down on all his bets

You would be surprised how many players will have the roll of their life and not make any money on it. His way of looking at it was he won money for today. The guy that called me only made $400 off the roll, and the first thing he told me was you would have made thousands of that roll.

Betting the game and money management is more important, then you’re shooting skills.
Anybody can work on both without going to the casinos, with just two dice and some chips or a piece of paper and pen! Start with 20 units bet 2, 4, or 6 units, roll the dice, did you hit any number you bet on, then pay your self off, and keep doing that till you seven out!

Keep a running count of your chips from the start of the week to the end of the week and keep adjusting you betting till you get it right! Talk about random rolling try this on a table top just dropping the dice, just shake and drop!

You will see table trends just by doing that, so you can sharpen both money management and your betting! Work on not giving any profit back, and remember there is no formula that will work all the time. As I always told the kids life is about change, learn to deal with it!

Quote: RaleighCraps

superrick,

Now, about that $1000 that I won. First, it was $1000 because after I won the first roll and was up $100 I didn't cut my bet in half and try to preserve a $50 win. I stepped on the gas and doubled my bet. Eureka, shooter makes point 2

I am not telling you to cut back your bets, just get them paid for and keep taking money off the table as you are playing, when you start to lose and you hit below a certain level of you profit it’s time to leave, your next session is always waiting for you to step back up to the table!

superrick

Thanks for the in depth explanation. What you just described is different than the picture I had painted from your previous posts. I agree whole heartedly with your post above on taking some profit while incrementally pressing up your bets at the same time.
For me, it all comes down to my initial start at the table. If I start out positive, I generally leave with a profit.

I was envious of a player next to me at Aria on Sat afternoon. He is $110 across player, but he bought in for $300, so he had enough for 2, maybe 3 shooters. It was obvious he was going to win with one of these first shooters, or he was walking. (He walked smack into a good roll and ended plus $1500 after 30 min or so of play). I wonder how often he loses the $300 playing that way?